The killing of Ma’Khia Bryant

[Loren Pechtel]

I wish the cop could have shot her once in the leg to incapacitate instead of four to the torso to kill.

I wish people would quit suggesting this sort of thing.

In almost all situations if you aim to shoot someone in the leg you either don't know enough to be using a gun or you're guilty of attempted murder. (Note that I'm not talking about a shot that doesn't go exactly where you intended, but aiming for an arm or leg.)

And aiming for center of mass is not an attempted murder?

If you have the time to take a low probability shot like that you shouldn't have been pulling the trigger in the first place. Center-mass is hard enough to hit under combat conditions, legs are smaller and move much more.

Over here the police seem to be trained to aim for legs. I can think of two incidents where a guy with a knife was incapacitated with a leg shot. Not accidentally, but deliberately aiming for the leg. In both cases the perpetrator survived. I don't think that police procedures from different countries and situations are entirely transferable to America because the circumstances and criminals are different, but ultimately that's a matter of procedures and training. A policeman who fires into someone's leg against his training would be committing gross negligence or incompetence.

Perhaps they care more about not killing someone than about the survival of whoever they are shooting to protect. Governments are prone to making decisions that favor optics over outcome.

And note that leg hits easily can be lethal. Hit the femoral artery and you've got about 10 seconds--during which the target very well might not be at all incapacitated.

I wish the cop could have shot her once in the leg to incapacitate instead of four to the torso to kill.

I wish people would quit suggesting this sort of thing.

In almost all situations if you aim to shoot someone in the leg you either don't know enough to be using a gun or you're guilty of attempted murder. (Note that I'm not talking about a shot that doesn't go exactly where you intended, but aiming for an arm or leg.)

I'm no expert, but this does look like a situation where a taser would be ideal.
Stop the lethal threat in a nonlethal way.
Tom

Flip a coin to see if her target lives. (Tasers are about 50% effective in field use.)

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

911 call audio:
https://omny.fm/shows/dispatch-on-demand-audio/makhia-bryant-shooting-911-call-reporting-stabbing

You have to listen to a dumb advertisement first. There is a younger girl calling who is talking about "grown girls" who showed up and tried to stab someone. The person on the phone is obviously distraught and distracted by something, but the dispatcher keeps asking if there are any weapons after being told twice the grown girls were trying to stab someone.

Part of phone call:

We got these ... grown girls over here, trying to fight us.

Bryant was 16 years old. It was her residence.

The young ladies who showed up were 20 and 22 apparently with permission of the foster mother who was not there.

This source transcribes part of the phone call as follows:

We got these grown girls over here trying to fight us. Trying to stab us. Trying to put their hands on our grandma.

In addition to the characteristics of the young lady in pink and young lady on the ground matching the characteristics of alleged assailants described in the phone call, Bryant's family is claiming the 911 call was made by Bryant.

Based on this information, I am going to speculate that Bryant was standing her ground at her residence. She either got the knife from one of the assailants, got it from inside to respond to their knife, or the assailants dropped the knife when they saw police arrive. Again, this is speculation in order to make the observations we saw in the video consistent with the 911 call.

This happened fast after the policeman got out of his cruiser, but Bryant had her back turned when he drew his gun. It's plausible she was just attacking the assailants around her and didn't know the police were yelling because they were going to shoot her. I still think the officer should have yelled "Stop or I'll shoot" or similarly informed Bryant he had a gun out while he was taking the gun out yelling "Get down." I still think it is understandable and tragic that he was under this kind of pressure in a short span of time to act. I am not going to conclude there was no systemic or collective problem with this incident, though, because there is not enough information without an investigation.

 

[none]

[removed]

 

[Derec]

911 call audio:
https://omny.fm/shows/dispatch-on-demand-audio/makhia-bryant-shooting-911-call-reporting-stabbing

This article suggests that it was an argument about housekeeping that precipitated the attempted stabbing.
Ma'Khia Bryant argued about housekeeping before fatal police shooting, foster parent says

Ma'Khia Bryant and two other young women argued over a messy house and unmade bed before a fight that ended with the fatal police shooting shooting of the Black teenager, the woman who cared for Ma'Khia in foster care said Thursday. Angela Moore said two of her former foster children had come to her Columbus, Ohio, home Tuesday to celebrate her birthday when the young women and Ma'Khia bickered over housekeeping.
"It was over keeping the house clean," Moore said. "The older one told them to clean up the house because 'Mom doesn't like the house dirty,'" Moore recalled being told after she arrived home from work. "So that's how it all started."

Crazy. There is also a different angle of the shooting from a different angle, taken by a neighbor's security camera.

Could not find a clean version of just the video.

 

[none]

911 call audio:
https://omny.fm/shows/dispatch-on-demand-audio/makhia-bryant-shooting-911-call-reporting-stabbing

This article suggests that it was an argument about housekeeping that precipitated the attempted stabbing.
Ma'Khia Bryant argued about housekeeping before fatal police shooting, foster parent says

Ma'Khia Bryant and two other young women argued over a messy house and unmade bed before a fight that ended with the fatal police shooting shooting of the Black teenager, the woman who cared for Ma'Khia in foster care said Thursday. Angela Moore said two of her former foster children had come to her Columbus, Ohio, home Tuesday to celebrate her birthday when the young women and Ma'Khia bickered over housekeeping.
"It was over keeping the house clean," Moore said. "The older one told them to clean up the house because 'Mom doesn't like the house dirty,'" Moore recalled being told after she arrived home from work. "So that's how it all started."

Crazy. There is also a different angle of the shooting from a different angle, taken by a neighbor's security camera.

Could not find a clean version of just the video.

crazy?
is your way to dismiss the fundamentals?

 

[Swammerdami]

And aiming for center of mass is not an attempted murder?

If you have the time to take a low probability shot like that you shouldn't have been pulling the trigger in the first place. Center-mass is hard enough to hit under combat conditions, legs are smaller and move much more.

Over here the police seem to be trained to aim for legs. I can think of two incidents where a guy with a knife was incapacitated with a leg shot. Not accidentally, but deliberately aiming for the leg. In both cases the perpetrator survived. I don't think that police procedures from different countries and situations are entirely transferable to America because the circumstances and criminals are different, but ultimately that's a matter of procedures and training. A policeman who fires into someone's leg against his training would be committing gross negligence or incompetence.

Perhaps they care more about not killing someone than about the survival of whoever they are shooting to protect. Governments are prone to making decisions that favor optics over outcome. [Swammi's emphasis]

The cop did not have time to do Bayesian analysis and guess whether firing his gun improved the expected outcome. Certainly the perp/victim was too distraught to make such analysis.

But framing the incident as the cop saving someone's life seems quite wrong to me. Yes, he MIGHT have saved a life. On the other hand, these step-sisters had already been squabbling for many minutes without injury. Perhaps Bryant was not going to deliver a serious injury with her knife. The one thing we DO know is that the cop understood (or SHOULD have understood) that HIS action was probably going to result in Bryant's death.

I don't imply that the cop's decision was easy. But I get tired of such actions being framed as SAVING a life, when the clear reality is just the OPPOSITE.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If you have the time to take a low probability shot like that you shouldn't have been pulling the trigger in the first place. Center-mass is hard enough to hit under combat conditions, legs are smaller and move much more.



Perhaps they care more about not killing someone than about the survival of whoever they are shooting to protect. Governments are prone to making decisions that favor optics over outcome. [Swammi's emphasis]

The cop did not have time to do Bayesian analysis and guess whether firing his gun improved the expected outcome. Certainly the perp/victim was too distraught to make such analysis.

But framing the incident as the cop saving someone's life seems quite wrong to me. Yes, he MIGHT have saved a life. On the other hand, these step-sisters had already been squabbling for many minutes without injury. Perhaps Bryant was not going to deliver a serious injury with her knife. The one thing we DO know is that the cop understood (or SHOULD have understood) that HIS action was probably going to result in Bryant's death.

I don't imply that the cop's decision was easy. But I get tired of such actions being framed as SAVING a life, when the clear reality is just the OPPOSITE.

I'm not saying the police are making the decision at the time, but that it's how they are trained.

 

[Swammerdami]

I'm not saying the police are making the decision at the time, but that it's how they are trained.

Okay, We see eye to eye. Does this lead to what is meant by "Defund the Police" ? Lay off many of the incumbents (cops with complaints, mistrained, much training staff) and start these departments over from scratch?

 

[J842P]

If you have the time to take a low probability shot like that you shouldn't have been pulling the trigger in the first place. Center-mass is hard enough to hit under combat conditions, legs are smaller and move much more.



Perhaps they care more about not killing someone than about the survival of whoever they are shooting to protect. Governments are prone to making decisions that favor optics over outcome. [Swammi's emphasis]

The cop did not have time to do Bayesian analysis and guess whether firing his gun improved the expected outcome. Certainly the perp/victim was too distraught to make such analysis.

But framing the incident as the cop saving someone's life seems quite wrong to me. Yes, he MIGHT have saved a life. On the other hand, these step-sisters had already been squabbling for many minutes without injury. Perhaps Bryant was not going to deliver a serious injury with her knife. The one thing we DO know is that the cop understood (or SHOULD have understood) that HIS action was probably going to result in Bryant's death.

I don't imply that the cop's decision was easy. But I get tired of such actions being framed as SAVING a life, when the clear reality is just the OPPOSITE.

This seems like a rather pedantic, purposefully obtuse perspective. Would it be better if we framed it as "saving someone from a high probability of serious injury and very real possibility of death, dismemberment, or disfigurement?"

Because, absolutely, that is what happened. And yes, that is the result of killing someone else.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't imply that the cop's decision was easy. But I get tired of such actions being framed as SAVING a life, when the clear reality is just the OPPOSITE.

It's not about saving a life, it's about choosing the innocent life over the guilty life.

She was in a position that almost certainly didn't warrant the use of deadly force, but she was using it anyway.

 

[abaddon]

It's possible to save one life by taking another.

Sometimes the best possible outcome, when somebody is trying to use a deadly weapon on someone, is that the "somebody" with the weapon dies and the attacked "someone" doesn't.

Think about the outrage there'd be if the officer tried to shoot the girl's leg and missed, and so someone got fatally stabbed. Or the outrage if he was fiddling with a taser and someone got fatally stabbed.

 

[J842P]

Or the outrage if he was fiddling with a taser and someone got fatally stabbed.

I highly doubt it would have made the national headlines.

 

[Swammerdami]

The full story of the altercation at Bryant's home may be interesting: Are details available? But I don't think I'll click; I've far too many interesting things to pursue, and time is running short. And anyway those details were NOT available to the cop who made a split-second decision to shoot, which is all the thread is about.

One post stated, IIRC, that the step-sisters might have been trespassing and that it was Bryant herself who called 911. Another suggestion was that the step-sisters started with the knife threats, and Bryant managed to grab that knife. (Though, again, all this would have been invisible to the cop.)

I report; you decide!
I tend to be of INTP Myers-Briggs type (I report), while message-board participants tend to be INTJ (You decide).

I did NOT say the cop shouldn't have shot Bryant; you are leaping to conclusions if you assume that I was implying that. What I DID say is that I'm glad I don't have his job.

If you have the time to take a low probability shot like that you shouldn't have been pulling the trigger in the first place. Center-mass is hard enough to hit under combat conditions, legs are smaller and move much more.



Perhaps they care more about not killing someone than about the survival of whoever they are shooting to protect. Governments are prone to making decisions that favor optics over outcome. [Swammi's emphasis]

The cop did not have time to do Bayesian analysis and guess whether firing his gun improved the expected outcome. Certainly the perp/victim was too distraught to make such analysis.

But framing the incident as the cop saving someone's life seems quite wrong to me. Yes, he MIGHT have saved a life. On the other hand, these step-sisters had already been squabbling for many minutes without injury. Perhaps Bryant was not going to deliver a serious injury with her knife. The one thing we DO know is that the cop understood (or SHOULD have understood) that HIS action was probably going to result in Bryant's death.

I don't imply that the cop's decision was easy. But I get tired of such actions being framed as SAVING a life, when the clear reality is just the OPPOSITE.

This seems like a rather pedantic, purposefully obtuse perspective. Would it be better if we framed it as "saving someone from a high probability of serious injury and very real possibility of death, dismemberment, or disfigurement?"

Because, absolutely, that is what happened. And yes, that is the result of killing someone else.

I don't imply that the cop's decision was easy. But I get tired of such actions being framed as SAVING a life, when the clear reality is just the OPPOSITE.

It's not about saving a life, it's about choosing the innocent life over the guilty life.

She was in a position that almost certainly didn't warrant the use of deadly force, but she was using it anyway.

I've never wielded my fists, let alone knife or gun, but I do have a volatile temper. I occasionally get enraged and lose control, though I confine myself to yelling rather than physical attacks. So I sympathize with Bryant; and it's natural for me to question whether Bryant was clearly "guilty" and her foes "innocent."

But, again, the balance was clear in the split-second the cop had to react, and I do not say he was wrong. (The real villains here may be a dysfunctional family, and a society which does too little to foster tranquility and mental health.)

 

[Harry Bosch]

The full story of the altercation at Bryant's home may be interesting: Are details available? But I don't think I'll click; I've far too many interesting things to pursue, and time is running short. And anyway those details were NOT available to the cop who made a split-second decision to shoot, which is all the thread is about.

One post stated, IIRC, that the step-sisters might have been trespassing and that it was Bryant herself who called 911. Another suggestion was that the step-sisters started with the knife threats, and Bryant managed to grab that knife. (Though, again, all this would have been invisible to the cop.)

I report; you decide!
I tend to be of INTP Myers-Briggs type (I report), while message-board participants tend to be INTJ (You decide).

I did NOT say the cop shouldn't have shot Bryant; you are leaping to conclusions if you assume that I was implying that. What I DID say is that I'm glad I don't have his job.

This seems like a rather pedantic, purposefully obtuse perspective. Would it be better if we framed it as "saving someone from a high probability of serious injury and very real possibility of death, dismemberment, or disfigurement?"

Because, absolutely, that is what happened. And yes, that is the result of killing someone else.

I don't imply that the cop's decision was easy. But I get tired of such actions being framed as SAVING a life, when the clear reality is just the OPPOSITE.

It's not about saving a life, it's about choosing the innocent life over the guilty life.

She was in a position that almost certainly didn't warrant the use of deadly force, but she was using it anyway.

I've never wielded my fists, let alone knife or gun, but I do have a volatile temper. I occasionally get enraged and lose control, though I confine myself to yelling rather than physical attacks. So I sympathize with Bryant; and it's natural for me to question whether Bryant was clearly "guilty" and her foes "innocent."

But, again, the balance was clear in the split-second the cop had to react, and I do not say he was wrong. (The real villains here may be a dysfunctional family, and a society which does too little to foster tranquility and mental health.)

Yes, we don't do a good job treating the mentally ill! To me, Ma’Khia was going in for the kill with the knife. She has the girl in pink against the car, she has the knife in the position and she's going in at waist level for the kill lunge. I think that the cop saved the girl in pink's life.

 

[RVonse]

All depends on why you called 911. Is someone trying to break into your house? Is your partner depressed and suicidal and you need help talking them off the ledge? Is your autistic son having a breakdown?

If police were actually trained and good at deescalation and dealing with mental illness then sending cops to everything is fine. However, that just isn't the case anymore. If we can demilitarize the police and stop training them like their going to war, that's a good first step. Just getting more cops and buying them more/bigger guns isn't going to fix. Maybe put more money into incentivizing cops to actually live in the community they police. Pay police more and develop of culture of service and protection rather training cops to keep people in line.

I'm not really for defunding or abolishing or whatever. I'm for figuring out what actually works and what is the correct solution. The way we're going now isn't good enough.

Harry, if i were a 911 operator and you called and said "I'm in trouble.", I'd refer you to Planned Parenthood.
Aside from the right training, the nonagressive, deescalation training that some law enforcement do do, they need to weed out and stop hiring these Rambo types, those with aggressive type personalities. All the proper training in the world isn't going to change who they are. They're assholes. Always and forever. And they have no business being placed in a position of authority.

I agree with you. 100%. However, here's the problem: these jobs pay shit. Open minded people with college educations are not going to apply for jobs that are dangerous, hated by everyone, and pay crap. If we really want better police outcomes in our communities: we'd support the good ones, dramatically increase their training, screen them better, and increase their wages. We get the police force that we deserve.

And we all need to live in Beverly Hills too.

 

[RVonse]

i saw the video and actually agree that the officer was in the right on this one. at least she wasn't shot in the back while running away and not immediately threatening someone with a deadly weapon. i think i heard NPR say that it was Bryant who called the police in the first place.

police do not need to respond to every emergency and THAT is the real goal of the defund the police movement. it's just really poor marketing.

one side will say "look at the cops murdering all the black people" and the other side will say "see cops are right to use force" and both side is way too stupid to understand the difference in the cases.

So, in your conception of "defund the police" -- which, again, has it's ideological roots in the prison/police *abolition* movement, so I gotta ask -- would police not have responded to this particular call?

The outcome, then, would have probably been a serious stabbing injury, with a high likelihood of death.

This presumes the knife attack is going to happen and couldn't have been prevented. If someone is lunging with the knife, regrettable action must be taken. But the question is, could this have been prevented. I haven't the faintest clue.

The cop should have shot the knife out of her hand. Obviously. That is what Wyatt Earp would have done.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I don't imply that the cop's decision was easy. But I get tired of such actions being framed as SAVING a life, when the clear reality is just the OPPOSITE.

It's not about saving a life, it's about choosing the innocent life over the guilty life.

She was in a position that almost certainly didn't warrant the use of deadly force, but she was using it anyway.

There is a presumption of guilt, when it could have been self-defense. But when the cops show up, it is pencils down for everyone time.

I'm not arguing the cop shouldn't have fired, but the trouble with arriving on-site and immediately acting on what is being perceived can actually lead to mistaken impressions of the situation.

 

[TomC]

I'm not arguing the cop shouldn't have fired, but the trouble with arriving on-site and immediately acting on what is being perceived can actually lead to mistaken impressions of the situation.

And if the cops had tried to resolve the struggle peacefully and the pink dress girl got stabbed and died the headline would have been "Black teenager murdered while cops do nothing!".
Because cops don't care about black folks.
Tom

 

[Gun Nut]

i saw the video and actually agree that the officer was in the right on this one. at least she wasn't shot in the back while running away and not immediately threatening someone with a deadly weapon. i think i heard NPR say that it was Bryant who called the police in the first place.

police do not need to respond to every emergency and THAT is the real goal of the defund the police movement. it's just really poor marketing.

one side will say "look at the cops murdering all the black people" and the other side will say "see cops are right to use force" and both side is way too stupid to understand the difference in the cases.

So, in your conception of "defund the police" -- which, again, has it's ideological roots in the prison/police *abolition* movement, so I gotta ask -- would police not have responded to this particular call?

The outcome, then, would have probably been a serious stabbing injury, with a high likelihood of death.

correct. That would have been the (preferred) outcome. In a case where two people are in a scuffle and one will get hurt and one will get very hurt, or killed... that is the better resolution than the cops showing up and one getting hurt and the other definitely getting killed.
Note that by "preferred" I mean what is preferred by the "defund the police" crowd. I'd rather the cop decide who needs to die rather than let might make right.

 

[Gun Nut]

I'm not arguing the cop shouldn't have fired, but the trouble with arriving on-site and immediately acting on what is being perceived can actually lead to mistaken impressions of the situation.

And if the cops had tried to resolve the struggle peacefully and the pink dress girl got stabbed and died the headline would have been "Black teenager murdered while cops do nothing!".
Because cops don't care about black folks.
Tom

I guarantee that would have been the case as well.