The killing of Ma’Khia Bryant

[TV and credit cards]

Yes, we don't do a good job treating the mentally ill! To me, Ma’Khia was going in for the kill with the knife. She has the girl in pink against the car, she has the knife in the position and she's going in at waist level for the kill lunge. I think that the cop saved the girl in pink's life.

I do not think anyone off Broadway could have done a better performance of going in for the kill with a knife than Ma’Khia. It was textbook. A benchmark. The Ma’Khia standard. There might as well have been a speech balloon over her head stating: “I’m going in for the kill”. A blind man could’ve seen it.





Okay, I’m done.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't imply that the cop's decision was easy. But I get tired of such actions being framed as SAVING a life, when the clear reality is just the OPPOSITE.

It's not about saving a life, it's about choosing the innocent life over the guilty life.

She was in a position that almost certainly didn't warrant the use of deadly force, but she was using it anyway.

There is a presumption of guilt, when it could have been self-defense. But when the cops show up, it is pencils down for everyone time.

I'm not arguing the cop shouldn't have fired, but the trouble with arriving on-site and immediately acting on what is being perceived can actually lead to mistaken impressions of the situation.

I do think she was somewhat acting in self defense. The problem is that her behavior wasn't consistent with legal self defense.

 

[cycomiko]

i saw the video and actually agree that the officer was in the right on this one. at least she wasn't shot in the back while running away and not immediately threatening someone with a deadly weapon. i think i heard NPR say that it was Bryant who called the police in the first place.

police do not need to respond to every emergency and THAT is the real goal of the defund the police movement. it's just really poor marketing.

one side will say "look at the cops murdering all the black people" and the other side will say "see cops are right to use force" and both side is way too stupid to understand the difference in the cases.

So, in your conception of "defund the police" -- which, again, has it's ideological roots in the prison/police *abolition* movement, so I gotta ask -- would police not have responded to this particular call?

The outcome, then, would have probably been a serious stabbing injury, with a high likelihood of death.

sorry for the delay, been quite a week

for this particular case it obviously makes sense for a cop to show up and i think the outcome, though unfortunate, isn't something that really needs to be debated. however, the autistic boy in utah that was shot by police when his mom called 911 as he was having an episode, could've been totally avoided if we didn't use the cops as the hammer while seeing every problem as a nail. i realize this is a nuanced issue but i don't see it as overly difficult to comprehend.

 

[Harry Bosch]

i saw the video and actually agree that the officer was in the right on this one. at least she wasn't shot in the back while running away and not immediately threatening someone with a deadly weapon. i think i heard NPR say that it was Bryant who called the police in the first place.

police do not need to respond to every emergency and THAT is the real goal of the defund the police movement. it's just really poor marketing.

one side will say "look at the cops murdering all the black people" and the other side will say "see cops are right to use force" and both side is way too stupid to understand the difference in the cases.

I agree with you that the left is the worst at marketing! The worst. However, I've never understood the no need for the police to respond to "every" emergency argument! If I call 911 because I'm in trouble: who should be sent to my house? I think that it should be someone with training in how to access an uncertain circumstance, be trained in first aid, be trained in how to deescalate circumstances, some training in mental illness, be able to put down a bad guy, and be willing to work for cheap (because tax payers are cheap). To me, the answer is clear: the local police.

All depends on why you called 911. Is someone trying to break into your house? Is your partner depressed and suicidal and you need help talking them off the ledge? Is your autistic son having a breakdown?

If police were actually trained and good at deescalation and dealing with mental illness then sending cops to everything is fine. However, that just isn't the case anymore. If we can demilitarize the police and stop training them like their going to war, that's a good first step. Just getting more cops and buying them more/bigger guns isn't going to fix. Maybe put more money into incentivizing cops to actually live in the community they police. Pay police more and develop of culture of service and protection rather training cops to keep people in line.

I'm not really for defunding or abolishing or whatever. I'm for figuring out what actually works and what is the correct solution. The way we're going now isn't good enough.

I hate to tell you this, but it's a fact: the best trained available people to help a family that has a family member in immediate mental distress that requires immediate help: call the police. If you call the local mental health professionals, you'll be on hold for hours. Then they'll ask for your health insurance. Then after that, they will either decline because they are full (this will happen 80% of the time) or they will schedule an appointment with you and your mentally ill relative - when it fits their schedule. And don't even think that they will make a house call! They will not. Our mental health system is a disaster in the US. And that is not the fault of the police.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I hate to tell you this, but it's a fact: the best trained available people to help a family that has a family member in immediate mental distress that requires immediate help: call the police.

Depending on the situation, calling the police or an ambulance may be more appropriate. I suppose it's also not an either/or thing as they are not completely mutually exclusive. I mean, let's say there is a suicidal teen who is trying to self-harm. There is an expectation the teen patient may resist help, may struggle, may not be verbally cooperative at first, too. It's an expectation that medical professionals may accept as part of the job, but police, depending on who they are, may put that in a police context, which suddenly becomes resisting arrest, felonious assault of an officer, not giving identification, and things might escalate. For that kind of medical emergency, you want medical people present and in charge, but it would also be great if police were present to assist as needed if something gets out of control.

 

[cycomiko]

All depends on why you called 911. Is someone trying to break into your house? Is your partner depressed and suicidal and you need help talking them off the ledge? Is your autistic son having a breakdown?

If police were actually trained and good at deescalation and dealing with mental illness then sending cops to everything is fine. However, that just isn't the case anymore. If we can demilitarize the police and stop training them like their going to war, that's a good first step. Just getting more cops and buying them more/bigger guns isn't going to fix. Maybe put more money into incentivizing cops to actually live in the community they police. Pay police more and develop of culture of service and protection rather training cops to keep people in line.

I'm not really for defunding or abolishing or whatever. I'm for figuring out what actually works and what is the correct solution. The way we're going now isn't good enough.

I hate to tell you this, but it's a fact: the best trained available people to help a family that has a family member in immediate mental distress that requires immediate help: call the police. If you call the local mental health professionals, you'll be on hold for hours. Then they'll ask for your health insurance. Then after that, they will either decline because they are full (this will happen 80% of the time) or they will schedule an appointment with you and your mentally ill relative - when it fits their schedule. And don't even think that they will make a house call! They will not. Our mental health system is a disaster in the US. And that is not the fault of the police.

don't hate to tell me that. it's my exact argument and it's probably my fault if it's not clear. currently, the police may be the only option due to funding or metal health professionals and others. you're explaining how things CURRENTLY are. i'm trying to explain how things SHOULD be. hence the "RE-fund" the police argument i'm attempting to make (obviously poorly). by rethinking how we fund, train, compensate, screen, and monitor the police perhaps we can get to the point where the cops aren't the ones that have to show up to every emergency. get it?

you're right that the mental health system is fucked in this country and it's not the cops fault. it's our society that has failed in that respect.

 

[TomC]

currently, the police may be the only option due to funding or metal health professionals and others. you're explaining how things CURRENTLY are.

The only option I have is calling 911.

I explain the problem as best I can, but fire trucks always show up first. I assume it's because the fire department has more free time.
I don't care, because the firemen are prepared for whatever I've ever had. It's always been medical emergencies and they've always had training and equipment to get started. By the time the ambulance got there they were all talking in code that sounded like two computers spurting information at each other.

I have no idea what it would be like if I were calling about a meth freak ODing or an obviously battered child.


Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I hate to tell you this, but it's a fact: the best trained available people to help a family that has a family member in immediate mental distress that requires immediate help: call the police.

Depending on the situation, calling the police or an ambulance may be more appropriate. I suppose it's also not an either/or thing as they are not completely mutually exclusive. I mean, let's say there is a suicidal teen who is trying to self-harm. There is an expectation the teen patient may resist help, may struggle, may not be verbally cooperative at first, too. It's an expectation that medical professionals may accept as part of the job, but police, depending on who they are, may put that in a police context, which suddenly becomes resisting arrest, felonious assault of an officer, not giving identification, and things might escalate. For that kind of medical emergency, you want medical people present and in charge, but it would also be great if police were present to assist as needed if something gets out of control.

If you call an ambulance on someone like that they're going to call the police and let them deal with the situation. Fire and EMS do not get into confrontations with armed people (and trying to self-harm implies some sort of weapon.)

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I hate to tell you this, but it's a fact: the best trained available people to help a family that has a family member in immediate mental distress that requires immediate help: call the police.

Depending on the situation, calling the police or an ambulance may be more appropriate. I suppose it's also not an either/or thing as they are not completely mutually exclusive. I mean, let's say there is a suicidal teen who is trying to self-harm. There is an expectation the teen patient may resist help, may struggle, may not be verbally cooperative at first, too. It's an expectation that medical professionals may accept as part of the job, but police, depending on who they are, may put that in a police context, which suddenly becomes resisting arrest, felonious assault of an officer, not giving identification, and things might escalate. For that kind of medical emergency, you want medical people present and in charge, but it would also be great if police were present to assist as needed if something gets out of control.

If you call an ambulance on someone like that they're going to call the police and let them deal with the situation. Fire and EMS do not get into confrontations with armed people (and trying to self-harm implies some sort of weapon.)

Hanging one's self, jumping out of a building, banging head against something, taking pills are examples I've personally seen that involve no weapon. That said, someone suicidal with a weapon will be killed by cops. How does that solve the original phone call?

 

[Harry Bosch]

If you call an ambulance on someone like that they're going to call the police and let them deal with the situation. Fire and EMS do not get into confrontations with armed people (and trying to self-harm implies some sort of weapon.)

Hanging one's self, jumping out of a building, banging head against something, taking pills are examples I've personally seen that involve no weapon. That said, someone suicidal with a weapon will be killed by cops. How does that solve the original phone call?

Because they very rarely get killed by the cops. Most of the time, the cops diffuse the situation, then the person gets sent the hospital and/or psy ward. Dealing with people with mental problems is extremely difficult.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If you call an ambulance on someone like that they're going to call the police and let them deal with the situation. Fire and EMS do not get into confrontations with armed people (and trying to self-harm implies some sort of weapon.)

Hanging one's self, jumping out of a building, banging head against something, taking pills are examples I've personally seen that involve no weapon. That said, someone suicidal with a weapon will be killed by cops. How does that solve the original phone call?

The issue was "attempting" to self harm. You aren't listing things that would be attempting.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

If you call an ambulance on someone like that they're going to call the police and let them deal with the situation. Fire and EMS do not get into confrontations with armed people (and trying to self-harm implies some sort of weapon.)

Hanging one's self, jumping out of a building, banging head against something, taking pills are examples I've personally seen that involve no weapon. That said, someone suicidal with a weapon will be killed by cops. How does that solve the original phone call?

The issue was "attempting" to self harm. You aren't listing things that would be attempting.

Sure I did. A person on a ledge is attempting to jump. A person who keeps trying to hang themselves until someone finds them in one night over and over is attempting suicide. A person who has a plan to swallow pills is going to attempt suicide, just like a person with a gun and a plan is going to attempt suicide. A kid banging his head saying he wants to kill himself is attempting extreme harm to himself. Don't argue semantics, just admit it and make your larger point.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The issue was "attempting" to self harm. You aren't listing things that would be attempting.

Sure I did. A person on a ledge is attempting to jump. A person who keeps trying to hang themselves until someone finds them in one night over and over is attempting suicide. A person who has a plan to swallow pills is going to attempt suicide, just like a person with a gun and a plan is going to attempt suicide. A kid banging his head saying he wants to kill himself is attempting extreme harm to himself. Don't argue semantics, just admit it and make your larger point.

How do you "attempt to jump"? You jump or you don't jump.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

The issue was "attempting" to self harm. You aren't listing things that would be attempting.

Sure I did. A person on a ledge is attempting to jump. A person who keeps trying to hang themselves until someone finds them in one night over and over is attempting suicide. A person who has a plan to swallow pills is going to attempt suicide, just like a person with a gun and a plan is going to attempt suicide. A kid banging his head saying he wants to kill himself is attempting extreme harm to himself. Don't argue semantics, just admit it and make your larger point.

How do you "attempt to jump"? You jump or you don't jump.

How do you attempt to shoot yourself in the head? You shoot or you don't shoot.

You are being silly with semantics. A person can have a plan and be somewhere in a process, working up courage...like on a ledge, needing intervention or with a gun in hand, needing intervention. Or with a pill bottle, or have swallowed the pill bottle. About to, doing it, did it, waiting for death...it's all something where someone may need help.

In the case of Bryant, it made sense to send police because it wasn't about suicide but someone chasing with a knife. It might have also made sense to have an ambulance on standby since it took 8 minutes to get there so by the time they got there, they'd expect a stabbing to have occurred...and if not, then possibly a shooting. It also would have made more sense for the police officer to have shouted "Stop or I'll shoot" instead of "Get down," but I don't want to fault him for that since he was under incredible pressure to solve something within seconds.

BUT this little tangent isn't about the specific case of Bryant. The tangent is about general cases in which the police are called. The context for which this started was when cycomiko wrote:

All depends on why you called 911. Is someone trying to break into your house? Is your partner depressed and suicidal and you need help talking them off the ledge? Is your autistic son having a breakdown?

Now you are saying my answer to the tangent isn't relevant to the tangent because I described situations that were exactly like the situations in the tangent. You are being lazy, entering the thread without catching up to see the context of the dicussion.

I will again (second time) recommend you stop arguing semantics now, and instead just address the larger issue of who to call during emergencies and when and if those services need to change or the structure of how to do so needs to change. That's really the bigger, more substantive issue under discussion, not what does it mean to "attempt" something.

 

[Derec]

An update on the case.

Grand jury declines to charge Columbus police officer for fatal shooting of Ma'Khia Bryant

The only correct decision, given the facts.