The left eats JK Rowling over transgender comments

[J842P]

It means they are women by gender. Sorry, but I’m still not seeing the problem with saying that.

What does it mean to say "they are women by gender"? I do not understand the expression, but if it means that they believe that they are women, then the question is whether the meaning of the term "woman" is such that a sufficient condition for a person to be a woman is that they believe that they are a woman.

It's sufficient to be a woman by gender.

You are not defining that expression, you are simply repeating it.

 

[ruby sparks]

It's sufficient to be a woman by gender.

You are not defining that expression, you are simply repeating it.

Nope, I'm not. I'm answering a question about sufficiency specifically.

 

[ruby sparks]

My personal gender identity is "Prince Consort".

Yeah. Sure it is.

 

[ruby sparks]

What is it, World Time-Wasting Day and nobody told me?

 

[Angra Mainyu]

It's sufficient to be a woman by gender.

You are not defining that expression, you are simply repeating it.

Nope, I'm not.

What does it mean to be "a woman by gender"?

I do not understand it. I consider one possibility: if "A a woman by gender" means "A believes that A is a woman", then the question is whether the meaning of the term "woman" is such that a sufficient condition for a person to be a woman is that they believe that they are a woman (I think the answer is negative, of course, but that is another matter; first I would like to know what it is that you are saying).

If it means something else, what does it mean?

Think about it this way. Suppose I'm not familiar with the Woke dialect yet (like, say, nearly every English speaker from 20 years ago or more). So, when you say "It's sufficient to be a woman by gender", I do not understand what you mean, and want to know. Could you explain the meaning to me, in different words? You may give a definition in terms of other words, or attempt an ostensive definition (though in this particular case, I'm not sure that that would work), which would have to be understood by a person not fluent in Woke English.

 

[ruby sparks]

What does it mean to be "a woman by gender"?.

Usually gender identity. I already said that.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

What does it mean to be "a woman by gender"?.

Usually gender identity. I already said that.

What does that mean?

Remember, I'm asking for a definition (ostensive or stipulative) that someone not fluent in Woke English would understand. That concept, "gender identity" is not understood by people not fluent in Woke English (or Woke variants of another language + regular English, but let us not complicate things).

I can try a dictionary:

https://www.britannica.com/topic/gender-identity

Gender identity, an individual’s self-conception as a man or woman or as a boy or girl or as some combination of man/boy and woman/girl or as someone fluctuating between man/boy and woman/girl or as someone outside those categories altogether.

Alright, so if that dictionary is correct (if not, please clarify for someone not fluent in Woke English) by saying that they are women by gender, you mean that they conceive themselves as women (note that this definition uses the term "women"; this is an interesting fact). The question is then whether the meaning of the term "woman" is such that a sufficient condition for a person A to be a woman is that A conceives A as a woman - which seems to be that A believes that A is a woman.

Is that a correct interpretation?

If not, could you provide one? (your definition, your preferred dictionary, an ostensive definition if you want to try, etc., but something that will allow a person not fluent in Woke English to figure what you mean, please).

 

[ruby sparks]

My personal gender identity is "Prince Consort".

Sorry, but this makes me a bit angry. Your gender identity is not fucking Prince Consort, and you are just trivialising the issue by suggesting that transgender people are similarly just making stuff up because it's good fun.

 

[ruby sparks]

What does that mean?

Gender identity? I am referring to the ordinary meaning of the term. I would have thought that would be right up your non-reproductive rear avenue.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

What does that mean?

Gender identity? I am referring to the ordinary meaning of the term. Would have thought that would be right up your non-reproductive canal.

I observe that Woke people use it in apparently contradictory manners (not necessarily self-contradictory, but one with another), so I have not been able to grasp the meaning of the term in Woke English. That is why I asked whether you could explain it in terms that would be comprehensible for a person not fluent in Woke English. If so, great! If not, then I would ask: how did people who were not fluent in Woke English 20 years ago (like, nearly everyone at least) became fluent in the first place? Observing usage among the Woke has not helped me.

At any rate, I provided a dictionary definition, and asked you whether you could let me know whether what you mean by "gender identity" is captured by the definition in question, and if it is not, whether you could provide a definition that matches your usage of the expression. It may be your own definition, or a link, or perhaps an attempt as an ostensive definition; any of those could help.

 

[ruby sparks]

What does that mean?

Gender identity? I am referring to the ordinary meaning of the term. Would have thought that would be right up your non-reproductive canal.

I observe that Woke people use it in apparently contradictory manners (not necessarily self-contradictory, but one with another), so I have not been able to grasp the meaning of the term in Woke English. That is why I asked whether you could explain it in terms that would be comprehensible for a person not fluent in Woke English. If so, great! If not, then I would ask: how did people who were not fluent in Woke English 20 years ago (like, nearly everyone at least) became fluent in the first place? Observing usage among the Woke has not helped me.

At any rate, I provided a dictionary definition, and asked you whether you could let me know whether what you mean by "gender identity" is captured by the definition in question, and if it is not, whether you could provide a definition that matches your usage of the expression. It may be your own definition, or a link, or perhaps an attempt as an ostensive definition; any of those could help.

If you don’t understand what is normally meant by the term gender identity that’s not my problem. Seems a bit odd, especially for someone so keen on citing the usual meaning of things.

Look, your whole line of argument, even setting aside that you’re using the OP topic for a rerun of your (imo flawed) ‘ordinary language takes precedence’ paradigm, is irrelevant, because I’m not in any case saying, or have been saying, that a transgender woman IS a woman in what I might agree has been and to some extent still is what is ordinarily meant by the term ‘woman’. What they are is a transgender woman, that is to say, a woman in terms of their gender, usually gender identity.

So you are just wasting my time.

And if you ask me is that a valid use of the term woman, obviously I’m going to say yes. And any discussion of whether it fits with what is (currently) ordinarily meant, by most people, by the unprefixed term ‘woman’ is imo not the most important aspect of the matter.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Your penis is primarily for urination. That's a biological reality. Impregnating women via sexual intercourse is something the average penis does two or three times in seventy-odd years

Sorry, no.

You don't need a penis for urination. Urine comes out just fine without one.

A penis exists in order to deposit sperm in, or close to, a cervix, oviduct, or similar opening to a female reproductive organ. If it didn't do that it would serve no purpose at all.

While evolution doesn't care it sure makes life easier for clothes wearers.

 

[Metaphor]

The heck? By that same token, I guess a heterosexual man who does enjoy dick (i.e. he likes being fucked with a strap-on by his girlfriend/wife) is actually gay?

That man doesn't enjoy 'dick'. He enjoys a long object being inserted into his anus and manipulated. Men can also enjoy anal beads in their anus without liking dick.

You appear to live in a universe where sexual attraction is exclusively about genitals. If that's your way of seeing it, more power to you.

No. In fact, the primary and the secondary sex characteristics are important. What is delusional are the pronouncements of trans activists who think people are attracted to a certain gender. This is in the top 5 of delusional trans activist utterances, and remember the competition!

But you're actually trying to force us to parttake in your delusion - which is quite ironic since this seems to be your single biggest objection to trans activism.

No I'm not. In fact, I preceded the sentence with "I don't want to tell your friend her business", meaning "this is my perspective, I think it's weird to be bisexual but not like penises".

 

[Metaphor]

*Some* are, arguably most, but not *all*.

A transwoman who started transitioning before puberty, and thus never underwent normal male puberty, is arguably, at least, not an adult human male.

I take it the first two descriptors - adult and human - are not being disputed - why would you dispute 'male'? A boy is male and a boy is male from birth.

A transwoman who is genetically xx but with virilized genitalia who was thus classified as male at birth is arguably not biologically male, but still a transwoman.

A person who is genetically XY, with a penis folded on the inside and regular, testosterone and sperm producing testicles inside the abdomen - who was of course classified as a female baby and raised as a girl, becomes a transman when undergoing surgery and changing her name. Is he/she an "adult human female" though?

I'm not making up these stories.  Erik_Schinegger (born Erika) is a person who exists - Erika Schinegger was world a champion women's downhill skier in 1966, aged 18, and only ever learnt about her unusual condition when she was tested in the run-up to the 1968 winter olympics - where she was hopeful to gain several medals, but was disqualified for being male. After undergoing transition, Erik fathered a daughter, and yet, by any reasonable definition, he's a transman.

Sure, there are a handful of people with identifiably intersex conditions, but that doesn't change the truth of the overall statement. Trans people are not asking that transition depend on having an intersex condition to be valid--most trans people have no intersex conditions and are either male or female.

Has this actually happened, with a frequency that makes this a valid concern?

It is definitely the case that transwomen who are sexually interested in women have spoken out about the "transphobic" genital preferences (or cis preferences) of lesbians. The frequency I cannot attest to.

I'm pretty sure they just think "this is hot".

Well, sure, but if I have hot sex with a man, I don't afterwards think I've been in a heterosexual union with him.

No, they just don't want you to point your finger at them at every occasion.

I don't 'point my finger' at anybody. Trans people would not get positive or negative attention on my radar but for the persistent positive demands made by trans activists, of the culture and the law.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

If you don’t understand what is normally meant by the term gender identity that’s not my problem. Seems a bit odd, especially for someone so keen on citing the usual meaning of things.

The term "gender identity" was not commonly in use 20 years ago. I did not understand it. Some people introduced it. So far, I have not been able to grasp a single or common meaning. I just see people using it apparently to mean different things, often talking past each other and sometimes equivocating.

So, I provided a dictionary definition, and asked you whether you could let me know whether what you mean by "gender identity" is captured by the definition in question, and if it is not, whether you could provide a definition that matches your usage of the expression. It may be your own definition, or a link, or perhaps an attempt as an ostensive definition; any of those could help. But you refuse.

Look, your whole line of argument, even setting aside that you’re using the OP topic for a rerun of your (imo flawed) ‘ordinary language takes precedence’ paradigm, is irrelevant, because I’m not in any case saying, or have been saying, that a transgender woman IS a woman in what I might agree has been and to some extent still is what is ordinarily meant by the term ‘woman’. What they are is a transgender woman, that is to say, a woman in terms of their gender, usually gender identity.

I'm not using it for any of that. Rather, I'm using reason in this case too.

And if you ask me is that a valid use of the term woman, obviously I’m going to say yes. And any discussion of whether it fits with what is (currently) ordinarily meant, by most people, by the unprefixed term ‘woman’ is imo not the most important aspect of the matter.

It is one of the central aspects of course, given that social coercion is used against those who fail to comply.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

My personal gender identity is "Prince Consort".

Sorry, but this makes me a bit angry. Your gender identity is not fucking Prince Consort, and you are just trivialising the issue by suggesting that transgender people are similarly just making stuff up because it's good fun.

Well, you regularly misconstrue what your opponents say, and accuse them (like B20 above) of things not related to what they are doing. Imagine how we feel (yes, you do not realize that you do that; but you keep doing it, and it is not fun).

ETA: this is not to say that other people are angry with you. Just a way of trying to put things into perspective. You are misconstruing and accusing on the basis of the misconstruction (not that you realize that).

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Update: I just found this on CNN and BBC:


https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/03/...ites-condemn-rowling-intl-scli-gbr/index.html

Our stance is firm: Transgender women are women. Transgender men are men. Non-binary people are non-binary. Intersex people exist and should not be forced to live in the binary," they said in their statement.

"While we don't condone the mistreatment JKR has received for airing her opinions about transgender people, we must reject her beliefs," they added.

Also, https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-53276007

Here is a very interesting accusation.

https://www.mugglenet.com/site/our-commitment/

As this fandom enters its third decade, J.K. Rowling has chosen this time to loudly pronounce harmful and disproven beliefs about what it means to be a transgender person.

"Disproven beliefs". What would those be? That trans women are not women, and/or trans men are not men? If not, what was it?

So, to all of those people, these claims appear very important. It's their "firm stance". This looks to me like a debate about whether transgender women are women, transgender men are men, and a few other claims. Now, it might be the case that they are confused about that too, and that JKR and those people are simply talking past each other, so if she denies that trans women are women and they affirm, there is no disagreement: they simply use the words to mean different things.

So, some options:

1. They do not mean the same by "woman" (and "women", etc.), as Rowling does. So, these people condemn Rowling for saying something she has not said (since she does not mean what they understand her to mean), and attribute to her beliefs that her statements do not indicate she has.

2. They mean the same. There is genuine disagreement as to whether transgender women are women and whether transgender men are men.

3. Some of the accusers mean what she does; others do not. So, there is both genuine disagreement with her, accusations against Rowling for saying something she has not said, and also non-genuine apparent agreement among different accusers who talk past one another.

4. They mean the same, but there is no genuine disagreement as to whether transgender women are women and whether transgender men are men. They just misunderstood her words - even though the meaning is the same as in their usage, but they misinterpreted regardless; that happens -, or something like that.

5. Some combination of 3. and 4.

6. Other (e.g., it's fake news, they did not accuse her of anything, or her account was hacked, etc.)

Which one is it?
Any views? (please explain).

 

[Bomb#20]

My personal gender identity is "Prince Consort".

Sorry, but this makes me a bit angry.

And? Lots of people get a bit angry when their ideologies are ridiculed. Just because you're offended doesn't mean you're right.

Your gender identity is not <expletive deleted? Prince Consort, and you are just trivialising the issue by suggesting that transgender people are similarly just making stuff up because it's good fun.

Did this part just wash over you without you noticing?

(And no, I'm not ridiculing trans people's gender identity; I'm ridiculing those activists who are attempting to make it compulsory to express agreement with them. Violating human rights is a lousy way to promote human rights.)

I did not suggest that transgender people are similarly just making stuff up because it's good fun. I was suggesting that Woke people have just made up an imaginary right-to-be-agreed-with and imputed that imaginary made-up right to transgender people because it's good propaganda. Well, I really am the husband of a bona fide descendant of a King of England. But for the historical accident that the arbitrary rules of royal nomenclature exclude certain categories of lines-of-descent, I would be included in the set of people Englishmen are expected to call "His Royal Highness".

How do you think the practice of English people calling some of their fellows "His Royal Highness" came to be part of the British dialect? What, did millions of English spontaneously feel marrying one of their princesses makes a man high? It happened because of coercion. English people faced "censure or some sort of punishment" if they didn't use whichever words for their self-appointed betters their self-appointed betters had ordained to be used.

I have exactly as much right to be the beneficiary of that sort of compulsory ideological compliance as trans people have. If my pointing this out angers you, enjoy your anger. "Anger is a weapon only in the hands of your opponent."

 

[Politesse]

See, I don't mind when people who claim to be the voice of reason start throwing slurs and inappropriate jokes around. It may not be pleasant but it's useful to know who the hypocrites and lying bigots are.

 

[repoman]

Is is slightly immoral when realizing another person is almost certainly transgender to let that effect your thinking about them?

Do transgenders want a mind wipe so that other people see them as they see themselves?

As rude as Metaphor can be, I would see him as a gay man which is how he see himself.

If a transwoman see herself as a transwoman then I can see it the same way. Aren't most of them like that anyway, with only a loud minority saying "I am a woman, full stop"?