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The most important discovery/invention of modern time

The main benefit to centralized, concentrated food production is to provide despots like Putler an easy way to starve or feed whoever they want - a key to effective imperialism.
Well, all the more reason to as much manufacture feedstocks that could as easily be used in normal farming, instead... And to get off Russian petrol.
 
Try to keep the process names straight:
  • Ammonia - Haber-Bosch
  • Hydrocarbons - Fischer-Tropsch
 
One can use Fischer-Tropsch for carbon sequestration, in addition to making synfuels and feedstocks.

One could make some heavy-hydrocarbon goo that one may then bake to drive off its hydrogen, leaving its carbon behind.
 
One can use Fischer-Tropsch for carbon sequestration, in addition to making synfuels and feedstocks.

One could make some heavy-hydrocarbon goo that one may then bake to drive off its hydrogen, leaving its carbon behind.
Hydrocarbons make a better capture IMO than straight carbon anyway.

You can hold one in a tank, and occasionally pump some out when solar power isn't cutting it to drive the demand.

With straight up carbon, you don't have many directions to go from there.

As such, baking it seems a little unnecessary. Having the goo captured is enough.
 
I have a question not about artificial photosynthesis, but about "ordinary" natural photosynthesis. I was reminded that we have a thread on photosynthesis when I saw this in another thread:
Thermodynamics is like that. We lose energy at every step ...
It is my understanding that photosynthesis and some of the other metabolic chains in living cells are NOT like that: the losses in each step are often quite small. (Do these processes avoid losses by operating molecule-by-molecule instead of macroscopically?)

Here is my understanding, almost certainly confused, of the first step in photosynthesis. Please help correct it rather than just laughing at me.

A photon is absorbed by a Mg (magnesium) atom in a chlorophyll molecule. This produces an "exciton" (electron and electron-hole pair), the two pieces of which start bouncing hither and yon. Or rather, it produces a quantum superposition of such excitons which, like the qubit data in a quantum computer, can explore various paths. The excitons bounce (like a ping-pong ball) among the nearby paddle-shaped chlorophyll molecules. In classical physics, the electron and electron-hole would usually find and cancel one another before long, producing some waste heat. But "if lucky" the electron of an exciton might eventually reach the Mn (manganese) atom in a reaction center and trigger the first key step in the photosynthesis sequence.

The electron reaches ("tunnels to") and interacts with the Mn atom MUCH more often than would be expected if it were following a "drunkard's random walk." Like the qubits following Grover's Algorithm in a quantum computer, the exciton created when a quantum of sunlight hits a living green leaf seems to be attracted toward a useful goal!

There is a famous story about this comparison between a quantum computer and a blade of green grass. I found part of the book excerpt without paywalls or Google-walls elsewhere:

“Molecular biology and quantum mechanics developed in parallel, rather than cooperatively. Biologists hardly attended physics lectures and physicists paid little attention to biology. But in April 2007, a group of MIT-based physicists and mathematicians who worked in a rather esoteric area called quantum information theory were enjoying one of their regular journal clubs (with each member taking a turn at presenting a new paper they had found in the scientific literature) when one of the group arrived with a copy of the New York Times carrying an article which suggested plants were quantum computers (more on these remarkable machines in chapter 8). The group exploded into laughter. One of the team, Seth Lloyd, recalled first hearing about this “quantum hanky-panky.” “We thought that was really hysterical . . . It’s like, ‘Oh my God, that’s the most crackpot thing I’ve heard in my life!’” The cause of their incredulity was the fact that many of the brightest and best-funded research groups in the world had spent decades trying to figure out how to build a quantum computer, a machine that could carry out certain calculations much faster and far more efficiently than the most powerful computers available in the world today. It relies on digital bits of information that are normally either 0 or 1, to be both 0 and 1 simultaneously and therefore able to pursue all possible calculations at once—the ultimate in parallel processing. The New York Times article was claiming a humble blade of grass was able to perform the kind of quantum trickery that lay at the heart of quantum computing. No wonder these MIT researchers were incredulous. They might not be able to build a working quantum computer but, if the article was right, they could eat one in their lunchtime salad!”

My question is: What the F***?!!! Can anyone explain the "goal-oriented" behavior of photosynthesis (or Grover's Algorithm for that matter) in an intuitive way? (Don't just summarize quantum mechanics. I've already read seven versions of Quantum Physics for the Intelligent Layman and am starting in on Quantum Physics for the Utter Imbecile.)
 
I have a question not about artificial photosynthesis, but about "ordinary" natural photosynthesis. I was reminded that we have a thread on photosynthesis when I saw this in another thread:
Thermodynamics is like that. We lose energy at every step ...
It is my understanding that photosynthesis and some of the other metabolic chains in living cells are NOT like that: the losses in each step are often quite small. (Do these processes avoid losses by operating molecule-by-molecule instead of macroscopically?)

Here is my understanding, almost certainly confused, of the first step in photosynthesis. Please help correct it rather than just laughing at me.

A photon is absorbed by a Mg (magnesium) atom in a chlorophyll molecule. This produces an "exciton" (electron and electron-hole pair), the two pieces of which start bouncing hither and yon. Or rather, it produces a quantum superposition of such excitons which, like the qubit data in a quantum computer, can explore various paths. The excitons bounce (like a ping-pong ball) among the nearby paddle-shaped chlorophyll molecules. In classical physics, the electron and electron-hole would usually find and cancel one another before long, producing some waste heat. But "if lucky" the electron of an exciton might eventually reach the Mn (manganese) atom in a reaction center and trigger the first key step in the photosynthesis sequence.

The electron reaches ("tunnels to") and interacts with the Mn atom MUCH more often than would be expected if it were following a "drunkard's random walk." Like the qubits following Grover's Algorithm in a quantum computer, the exciton created when a quantum of sunlight hits a living green leaf seems to be attracted toward a useful goal!

There is a famous story about this comparison between a quantum computer and a blade of green grass. I found part of the book excerpt without paywalls or Google-walls elsewhere:

“Molecular biology and quantum mechanics developed in parallel, rather than cooperatively. Biologists hardly attended physics lectures and physicists paid little attention to biology. But in April 2007, a group of MIT-based physicists and mathematicians who worked in a rather esoteric area called quantum information theory were enjoying one of their regular journal clubs (with each member taking a turn at presenting a new paper they had found in the scientific literature) when one of the group arrived with a copy of the New York Times carrying an article which suggested plants were quantum computers (more on these remarkable machines in chapter 8). The group exploded into laughter. One of the team, Seth Lloyd, recalled first hearing about this “quantum hanky-panky.” “We thought that was really hysterical . . . It’s like, ‘Oh my God, that’s the most crackpot thing I’ve heard in my life!’” The cause of their incredulity was the fact that many of the brightest and best-funded research groups in the world had spent decades trying to figure out how to build a quantum computer, a machine that could carry out certain calculations much faster and far more efficiently than the most powerful computers available in the world today. It relies on digital bits of information that are normally either 0 or 1, to be both 0 and 1 simultaneously and therefore able to pursue all possible calculations at once—the ultimate in parallel processing. The New York Times article was claiming a humble blade of grass was able to perform the kind of quantum trickery that lay at the heart of quantum computing. No wonder these MIT researchers were incredulous. They might not be able to build a working quantum computer but, if the article was right, they could eat one in their lunchtime salad!”

My question is: What the F***?!!! Can anyone explain the "goal-oriented" behavior of photosynthesis (or Grover's Algorithm for that matter) in an intuitive way? (Don't just summarize quantum mechanics. I've already read seven versions of Quantum Physics for the Intelligent Layman and am starting in on Quantum Physics for the Utter Imbecile.)

As to the efficiency of quantum computing, it comes down to the efficiency of the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_Fourier_transform

When it comes to the blade of grass...
I'm going to say some dumb shit right here so bear with me.

So, we know how transistors use holes to bait electrons to tunnel towards other holes, ya? Why can't the electron be being baited to tunnel towards the Mn similarly, by using nearby holes generated through the structure of the region around the Mn presenting a weak "hole" that creates 'yield' in the probability field in that direction, even if it's past the Mn, or buried inside the molecular structure of the protein? It would tend to yeet the exciton's hole and draw the electron, which has a hard time coordinating with the exciton hole anyway.

And then I saw how Lie algebras factor into QM probability equations.
 
And then I saw how Lie algebras factor into QM probability equations.
Well, if there's one kind of algebras you shouldn't trust...
More, lie algebras are about the maths that exist between the sets of math available to groups of finite states between each other.

If I'm understanding it as properly as I think I do, because each particle is really a variety of different virtual particle configurations the energy states available to transition are listed by the lie algebras and you have to do some math across the different algebraic systems available to get the probabilities of any state transitions and the energies of those transitions.
 
My question is: What the F***?!!! Can anyone explain the "goal-oriented" behavior of photosynthesis (or Grover's Algorithm for that matter) in an intuitive way? (Don't just summarize quantum mechanics. I've already read seven versions of Quantum Physics for the Intelligent Layman and am starting in on Quantum Physics for the Utter Imbecile.)
I thought they were comparing a quantum computer to grass, not quantum mechanics. A quantum computer is a fined tuned instrument designed to solve one problem very quickly. They are saying grass evolved as such as well. The comparison isn't obvious, but it seems intuitive once broached. Evolution often comes about being adaptable to something very specific. We engineer a finely tuned quantum computer, but time and a boatload of "error" go into evolution for a finely tuned object.

It is kind of like turning "Intelligent design" and "fine tuning" on its head.
 
My question is: What the F***?!!! Can anyone explain the "goal-oriented" behavior of photosynthesis (or Grover's Algorithm for that matter) in an intuitive way? (Don't just summarize quantum mechanics. I've already read seven versions of Quantum Physics for the Intelligent Layman and am starting in on Quantum Physics for the Utter Imbecile.)
I thought they were comparing a quantum computer to grass, not quantum mechanics. A quantum computer is a fined tuned instrument designed to solve one problem very quickly. They are saying grass evolved as such as well. The comparison isn't obvious, but it seems intuitive once broached. Evolution often comes about being adaptable to something very specific. We engineer a finely tuned quantum computer, but time and a boatload of "error" go into evolution for a finely tuned object.

It is kind of like turning "Intelligent design" and "fine tuning" on its head.
IOW, every tune that may be considered "fine" is accessible through applying an "delta error" to an "initial condition error" until the initial condition error decreases. When the "error" is "things that halt reproduction", this creates a feedback system that evolves in a Darwinian fashion. Thus, "fine tunes" are, in fact, inevitable as a product of reproduction at or above replacement rate at sufficient rates to prevent extinction.
 
My question is: What the F***?!!! Can anyone explain the "goal-oriented" behavior of photosynthesis ... in an intuitive way?
If anyone can, it would be Francis Crick, of Double Helix fame...


"Evolution is cleverer than you are."

 
There is some chemical configuration or other mechanism which facilitates the exciton tunneling to the reaction center. I'm trying to understand what that mechanism is. Given that such a mechanism is possible, evolution may bring that configuration about — no confusion there — but What is that mechanism?

If the answer is "It's just ordinary Least Action, dummy" that's fine (although I'd prefer something more detailed or explicit).
 
"fine tunes" are, in fact, inevitable as a product of reproduction at or above replacement rate
Well said.
If there's a creater/god, evolution is its greatest creation.
 
There is some chemical configuration or other mechanism which facilitates the exciton tunneling to the reaction center. I'm trying to understand what that mechanism is. Given that such a mechanism is possible, evolution may bring that configuration about — no confusion there — but What is that mechanism?

If the answer is "It's just ordinary Least Action, dummy" that's fine (although I'd prefer something more detailed or explicit).
One would probably have to account for a huge number of variables - environmental, biochemical, temperatures and pressure etc. and look for trends in huge numbers of individual molecular interactions and differences in the inexplicably preferred "choice" interactions vs conventionally expected interactions. As Jarhyn asked, "Why can't the electron be being baited to tunnel towards the Mn...?"
 
"fine tunes" are, in fact, inevitable as a product of reproduction at or above replacement rate
Well said.
If there's a creater/god, evolution is its greatest creation.
That's the thing though... Any system of automata quantum or otherwise, with the capability to permute into a mutably templated reproductive form will feature evolution.

It's an unavoidable byproduct of a dizzying array of systems. We have emulated a vast number of systems which feature evolution, as such.

It's more an emergent property of a subset of all logically coherent systems than a creation in any given one.
 
There is some chemical configuration or other mechanism which facilitates the exciton tunneling to the reaction center. I'm trying to understand what that mechanism is. Given that such a mechanism is possible, evolution may bring that configuration about — no confusion there — but What is that mechanism?

If the answer is "It's just ordinary Least Action, dummy" that's fine (although I'd prefer something more detailed or explicit).
One would probably have to account for a huge number of variables - environmental, biochemical, temperatures and pressure etc. and look for trends in huge numbers of individual molecular interactions and differences in the inexplicably preferred "choice" interactions vs conventionally expected interactions. As Jarhyn asked, "Why can't the electron be being baited to tunnel towards the Mn...?"
I dunno. I would try triggering conformance changes in the Mn's fixture and seeing if the apparent gradient remains. Maybe watch how it wiggles especially when the exciton is nearby to see if the thing gets a little yeet and from where.
 
That's the thing though... Any system of automata quantum or otherwise, with the capability to permute into a mutably templated reproductive form will feature evolution.

It's an unavoidable byproduct of a dizzying array of systems. We have emulated a vast number of systems which feature evolution, as such.

It's more an emergent property of a subset of all logically coherent systems than a creation in any given one.
Again, well said. Any population of imperfectly self-replicating entities existing in a dynamic fitness landscape, will undergo evolution. This has been shown to apply from the quantum to the macro - it is so reliable, ubiquitous and powerful that we took it for granted until it was described by Darwin. Something like gravity before Newton. I'm glad there weren't religious proscriptions against describing gravity, back in the day!

Maybe watch how it wiggles

Science is so entertaining.
 
Electrom are excellent tunnelers.


A tunnel diode or Esaki diode is a type of semiconductor diode that has effectively "negative resistance" due to the quantum mechanical effect called tunneling. It was invented in August 1957 by Leo Esaki, Yuriko Kurose, and Takashi Suzuki when they were working at Tokyo Tsushin Kogyo, now known as Sony.[1][2][3][4] In 1973, Esaki received the Nobel Prize in Physics, jointly with Brian Josephson, for discovering the electron tunneling effect used in these diodes. Robert Noyce independently devised the idea of a tunnel diode while working for William Shockley, but was discouraged from pursuing it.[5] Tunnel diodes were first manufactured by Sony in 1957,[6] followed by General Electric and other companies from about 1960, and are still made in low volume today.[7]

Tunnel diodes have a heavily doped positive-to-negative (P-N) junction that is about 10 nm (100 Å) wide. The heavy doping results in a broken band gap, where conduction band electron states on the N-side are more or less aligned with valence band hole states on the P-side. They are usually made from germanium, but can also be made from gallium arsenide and silicon materials.

I'd say self replication reduces to the molecular forces. Given the rihgt balance of materials and atomic interactions the ball starts rolling.

Brownian Motion.

As to complexity and variables the old Bio Dome experiment comes to mind. The idea was to create a self sustain g ecosystem.

One problem was unaccounted for soil bacteria that in the long term upset the predicted O2 balance leading to a decrease in O2.
 
I'd say self replication reduces to the molecular forces.
Except as noted, these little ribbons of carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, phosphorus, and assorted other shit in fact do reproduce QM phenomena, which is the point of Swammerdami's discussion.

Any system with such gradients will create tunes even to the scale of it's individual quanta.
 
There is some chemical configuration or other mechanism which facilitates the exciton tunneling to the reaction center. I'm trying to understand what that mechanism is. Given that such a mechanism is possible, evolution may bring that configuration about — no confusion there — but What is that mechanism?

If the answer is "It's just ordinary Least Action, dummy" that's fine (although I'd prefer something more detailed or explicit).
Dude. The answer is "We don't know the mechanism! We're not as clever as evolution!". :devil:

One would probably have to account for a huge number of variables - environmental, biochemical, temperatures and pressure etc. and look for trends in huge numbers of individual molecular interactions and differences in the inexplicably preferred "choice" interactions vs conventionally expected interactions. As Jarhyn asked, "Why can't the electron be being baited to tunnel towards the Mn...?"
Enough with the Mn already! There is no Mn in chlorophyll! It's Mg!
 
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