The Need To Worship

[T.G.G. Moogly]

What’s interesting to me is the difference between needing beliefs and needing to worship.

I am utterly befuddled by people who like to worship others. Whether it’s god(dess)(es) or people. I just am plumb flummoxed. It doesn’t compute.

In no small part because I have never ever, not once, ever, have met a person who liked to be worshipped who was a nice person.

So by the commutative property of relationships, I cannot imagine wanting to worship a person (or being) because if they liked it, they would be a horrible person (being), and if they didn’t like it, I’m a jerk for doing it.

So it just leaves me completely perplexed every time some religionist talks about worship with that faraway look and the bit of drool at their lip.

Worship is submission. Submission can be quite rational. So from an evolutionary standpoint the behavior is easy to account for and understand. Submission is better than destruction when it comes to survival and passing on genes, so the behavior certainly has rational roots.

The goofy part is submitting to something that isn't even there, only imagined to be there. Considering that people claim to be worshipping invisible creatures with magic powers maybe it's more like a mass, shared psychosis.

It's certainly a behavior that is easily exploited in the unfortunate individual so affected.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

If Yahweh is relegated to the status of evil demiurge....how does that resolve the PoE?

Our myths are not our beliefs.

If you eliminate the supernatural god, the natural epitome of power and law to us is nature and man. Our fittest people that is.

You will see my thinking on this here.

https://talkfreethought.org/showthr...me-of-desire-is-to-be-named-the-Greatest-I-am

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

If Yahweh is relegated to the status of evil demiurge....how does that resolve the PoE?

Nature has no problem of evil.

Without what we see as a bit of human to human evil in evolution, our evolution would end.

We must do evil to the losers of competitions to survive and thrive.

I have a TLDR for theists.

------------

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.

As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

This link speak to theistic evolution.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart...cept-evolution-and-big-bang-180953166/?no-ist

If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

Doing evil then is actually forced on us by evolution and the need to survive. Our default position is to cooperate or to do good. I offer this clip as proof of this. You will note that we default to good as it is better for survival.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Regards
DL

 

[steve_bank]

So Gnostic, if I beat your brains out to take your job that is just evolution?

You seem to lack a moral compass. You ae all lver the place with no consistent position, often contradictory.

Perhaps you are making it up as you go along, like Trump.

Now it is evolution that makes us evil. Do you undershorts what yiu are saying or are yiu just flinging what comes to mind?

Reality is what it is. Evolution is a human created concept, the universe dies what it does regardless of what we call it.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

So Gnostic, if I beat your brains out to take your job that is just evolution?

You seem to lack a moral compass. You ae all lver the place with no consistent position, often contradictory.

Perhaps you are making it up as you go along, like Trump.

Now it is evolution that makes us evil. Do you undershorts what yiu are saying or are yiu just flinging what comes to mind?

Reality is what it is. Evolution is a human created concept, the universe dies what it does regardless of what we call it.

Can't even read properly.

Who said we were evil?

That was not what I indicated.

[removed]
Regards
DL

 

[Politesse]

Joseph Campbell called the Christian god the top alpha male.

Funny, I don't see that quotation in my collection. Did not not know Campbell was such a fan of trash pop psychology of gender.

I do recall him saying:

"God is a metaphor for that which transcends all levels of intellectual thought."

and

"The god you worship is the god you are capable of becoming."

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Joseph Campbell called the Christian god the top alpha male.

Funny, I don't see that quotation in my collection. Did not not know Campbell was such a fan of trash pop psychology of gender.

I do recall him saying:

"God is a metaphor for that which transcends all levels of intellectual thought."

and

"The god you worship is the god you are capable of becoming."

I sure hope Christians and Muslims cannot become like their genocidal god.

Regards
DL

 

[DBT]

So Gnostic, if I beat your brains out to take your job that is just evolution?

You seem to lack a moral compass. You ae all lver the place with no consistent position, often contradictory.

Perhaps you are making it up as you go along, like Trump.

Now it is evolution that makes us evil. Do you undershorts what yiu are saying or are yiu just flinging what comes to mind?

Reality is what it is. Evolution is a human created concept, the universe dies what it does regardless of what we call it.

Can't even read properly.

Who said we were evil?

That was not what I indicated.

[removed]
Regards
DL

Presumably an omniscient/omnipotent God of Love is able to create a world where people physically need not, and psychologically cannot, resort to acts of evil?

Therefore if evil exists, it is a matter of design, not chance, probability or that evil is somehow unavoidable.

So, by definition, if an omniscient/omnipotent God created the world, the inevitability of evil was woven into its very fabric.

 

[Politesse]

Joseph Campbell called the Christian god the top alpha male.

Funny, I don't see that quotation in my collection. Did not not know Campbell was such a fan of trash pop psychology of gender.

I do recall him saying:

"God is a metaphor for that which transcends all levels of intellectual thought."

and

"The god you worship is the god you are capable of becoming."

I sure hope Christians and Muslims cannot become like their genocidal god.

Regards
DL

I believe that was somewhat the point he was making. He was not offended by worship, but was concerned about what people sometimes choose to worship.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Yes. Isn't it amazing that Noah's Ark is in every child's brain, as a story of God's stupendous might, yet it's a story about exterminating all of humanity except for a 600-year-old alcoholic and his offspring?

 

[Politesse]

Yes. Isn't it amazing that Noah's Ark is in every child's brain, as a story of God's stupendous might, yet it's a story about exterminating all of humanity except for a 600-year-old alcoholic and his offspring?

I suspect most young folks coming up these days have more familiarity with and reverence for Loki and the Mandalorian than for old Noah.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Yes. Isn't it amazing that Noah's Ark is in every child's brain, as a story of God's stupendous might, yet it's a story about exterminating all of humanity except for a 600-year-old alcoholic and his offspring?

While they pray for Armageddon. Another genocide.

Christians. Gotta love em.

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Yes. Isn't it amazing that Noah's Ark is in every child's brain, as a story of God's stupendous might, yet it's a story about exterminating all of humanity except for a 600-year-old alcoholic and his offspring?

I suspect most young folks coming up these days have more familiarity with and reverence for Loki and the Mandalorian than for old Noah.

True, but many old Christians and their vile churches are preaching for homophobia and misogyny and continue to do a lot of harm to many.

Go Christians young go. Go talk to your parents.

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

So Gnostic, if I beat your brains out to take your job that is just evolution?

You seem to lack a moral compass. You ae all lver the place with no consistent position, often contradictory.

Perhaps you are making it up as you go along, like Trump.

Now it is evolution that makes us evil. Do you undershorts what yiu are saying or are yiu just flinging what comes to mind?

Reality is what it is. Evolution is a human created concept, the universe dies what it does regardless of what we call it.

Can't even read properly.

Who said we were evil?

That was not what I indicated.

[removed]
Regards
DL

Presumably an omniscient/omnipotent God of Love is able to create a world where people physically need not, and psychologically cannot, resort to acts of evil?

Therefore if evil exists, it is a matter of design, not chance, probability or that evil is somehow unavoidable.

So, by definition, if an omniscient/omnipotent God created the world, the inevitability of evil was woven into its very fabric.

Insightful thinking.

This is one area where I think I have reconciled any differences between a supernatural god and reality. Have a look.

This relies on my interpretation of early Chrestianity and Christianity is correct. I do have a logic trail though for support, as well as scriptures and dogma.

Key dogma being that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

You might think this following TLDR. It was written to a Christian.

------------------

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.

As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

This link speak to theistic evolution.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart...cept-evolution-and-big-bang-180953166/?no-ist

If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

Doing evil then is actually forced on us by evolution and the need to survive. Our default position is to cooperate or to do good. I offer this clip as proof of this. You will note that we default to good as it is better for survival.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Regards
DL

 

[steve_bank]

Along with a need to worship is a need to convince others of how they are wrong and you are right.

A compulsion towards endless 'stream of consciousness' speech on what you believe and rationalization of beiefs.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Along with a need to worship is a need to convince others of how they are wrong and you are right.

A compulsion towards endless 'stream of consciousness' speech on what you believe and rationalization of beiefs.

In extreme cases it is no doubt a form of OCD. If you think about it rationally isn't it odd that every seventh day you have to go to a certain kind of building, speak certain words, take part in certain behaviors? You are convinced that if you don't do this then you're really going to be unlucky. So you do it to protect yourself despite the fact that it's just a comforting habit. You also have to do it on certain "special" days or you will be just as unlucky.

I was reading a BBC article on the ancient city of Hierapolis. It contained a shrine to Pluto and the legendary "Gates of Hell" where the priests sacrificed and pilgrims flocked. In a way these attractions were kinda like freak shows, hence their ability to profit and fleece the unlearned. If today's magic buildings didn't collect money from willing attendees they would fall into decay in short order.

 

[ideologyhunter]

I love to see old churches repurposed. My town has one that was a beer distribution point for a while, and is now a nonprofit consignment store. If America's churches could be turned into mental health clinics or adult education centers...

 

[steve_bank]

Along with a need to worship is a need to convince others of how they are wrong and you are right.

A compulsion towards endless 'stream of consciousness' speech on what you believe and rationalization of beiefs.

In extreme cases it is no doubt a form of OCD. If you think about it rationally isn't it odd that every seventh day you have to go to a certain kind of building, speak certain words, take part in certain behaviors? You are convinced that if you don't do this then you're really going to be unlucky. So you do it to protect yourself despite the fact that it's just a comforting habit. You also have to do it on certain "special" days or you will be just as unlucky.

I was reading a BBC article on the ancient city of Hierapolis. It contained a shrine to Pluto and the legendary "Gates of Hell" where the priests sacrificed and pilgrims flocked. In a way these attractions were kinda like freak shows, hence their ability to profit and fleece the unlearned. If today's magic buildings didn't collect money from willing attendees they would fall into decay in short order.

Rituals do serve a purpose.

 

[DBT]

To worship the gods appears to be a form of supplication and pleading: Lordy, Lordy, look how I worship, look how I love you, please look after me and mine, please reward your faithful servant.

 

[WAB]

To worship the gods appears to be a form of supplication and pleading: Lordy, Lordy, look how I worship, look how I love you, please look after me and mine, please reward your faithful servant.

That's probably most of it. But there is also the desire to acknowledge the possibility of the existence of entities (or at least one entity) who are so far advanced on the evolutionary scale that their intellect and abilities would seem to us godlike and magical. I see no problem with a nod of the noggin and a slight trembling in the knees at the thought of such beings. In other words, worship may not ONLY be rooted in self abnegation, lack of esteem, paucity of self worth, but also rooted in fairness: a willful acknowledgment that there is something alive, living beyond our senses, and far beyond our intellect, and that the magnitude of the universe makes this virtually certain.