• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

The objective mind

But many parts of the right hemisphere are involved in the spoon example. The areas that let the hemisphere "see" (the left visual field), areas that let it "hear" (the researcher giving it instructions), areas that let it "touch" and "feel" (to grab the spoon) but it can't "talk".

The questions are: What is "seeing"? What is "hearing"? What is "feeling"? And how is this thing that "sees" and "hears" and "feels" "seeing" and "hearing" and "feeling"?

Those are the questions this thread is about.

It is quite well known how the right hemisphere vs the left hemisphere is working in the spoon example. I don't understand why you prefer an explanation where you don't even know the size (let alone the location?) of the objective mind.

What is well known about how something that can "see" is "seeing" and how a thing that "sees" is created?

So under most circumstances it isn't a "horribly damaged brain".

A brain severed in half?
 
The questions are: What is "seeing"? What is "hearing"? What is "feeling"? And how is this thing that "sees" and "hears" and "feels" "seeing" and "hearing" and "feeling"?

Those are the questions this thread is about.
The right hemisphere on its own is doing all of this since it is not able to communicate things about the spoon (or its left hand) to the left hemisphere. Different parts of that hemisphere are seeing, hearing, feeling, etc. Other posters probably know what parts of the right hemisphere would be involved.

So under most circumstances it isn't a "horribly damaged brain".
A brain severed in half?
The knowledge of the spoon and the left hand is only available to the right hemisphere. The left hemisphere doesn't know. Under these circumstances it is as if there are two minds, though only one can talk (the other can still control the left hand). You still insist there is a single unified mind.
 
You ignore clear distinctions for unknown reasons.

Not “unknown” nor “clear” as has been abundantly established.

A brain is distinct from the many activities that occur in a brain.

Perfect example. You are—again—making a category error. “Brain” is not a monolithic object; it is actually a term we use for a collection of organs that we arbitrarily apply to just those sections that are in our skulls. So do us a favor and post a picture of a brain.

A violin is distinct from vibrating air.

:facepalm: Again, what is the point of this stupid, unnecessarily pedantic semantics bullshit? Stroking the strings (aka, causing activity) results in air vibrations that excite the inner ear that in turn are translated as particular sounds blah blah blah.

Every step of “music” (aka “subjective mind”) is entirely dependent upon the sequence of all of those processes (aka, “activity”). Violin generates music; brain generates mind.

Why are you desperately trying to unnecessarily complicate that properly basic condition?

Brain activities are distinct from a subset of the activities doing a specific thing

Category error. Brain activities are brain activities. “Specific thing” is redundant and tautological. ALL “activities” do “specific things.”

Once again, there is NO NEED to try to force the concept of a “sub-set,” particularly since you are clearly doing so in order to equivocate.

“Brain activity generates mind” is perfectly sufficient and properly basic.

The activity that creates the subjective mind (the objective mind)

*cough* equivocation! *cough*

is distinct from the product of that activity

Word games. I can just as easily state that playing Mozart’s Violin Concerto No. 3 on a Stradivarius is “distinct” from the same symphony played on a Stentor. While I am technically correct in regard to certain elements of that statement, I am equally technically incorrect in regard to certain other elements of that statement. It’s all hidden within the semantics.

The same thing happens here:

The subjective mind experiences pain. The brain does not experience pain.

I can just as easily state the opposite and due to the ambiguity of the terms it remains equally true:

The brain experiences pain. The subjective mind does not experience pain.

All you can do is gainsay it.

The activity of the brain does not experience pain.

But the brain does and then interprets that experience into signals—aka, “generates activity”—that in turn becomes part of the activity that generates the subjective mind.

There is literally nothing you can type that I can’t perfectly match precisely because the entirety of your fallacy is predicated on semantic games and category errors.

The only question remaining—as always—is why are you so desperately trying to pretend that “mind” is an objectively existing object equivalent in ALL aspects to the way a brain is an objectively existing object?

Let’s assume your clearly unsound argument is nevertheless true and there exists some thing as a distinct, “objective mind”? So....?

What is your next tenuous link?
 
I did.

The single mind is controlling it.

Unfortunately the brain of that mind has been so damaged the single mind can't talk about it.

You are trying to use the severely damaged to explain the intact. Absurdity!

That's not an explanation. No is it a description of how autonomy of mind is possible. You are just reasserting your claim in another way.

Where is your description of how it is supposed to work?

Where is your evidence?
 
In the untermenche world of BS comes there is only one way to create the objective mind....

The dissonance is amazing.

The objective mind is that which creates the subjective mind.

Energy of some kind creates the objective mind.

Subjective is a unique state.

It is not like any state that a human can create.

Those that dismiss the subjective as some normal known phenomena have a blindness that is amazing.


The dissonance is amazing. That much is true.

The dissonance is yours.

The anatomy of movement;
''Almost all of behavior involves motor function, from talking to gesturing to walking. But even a simple movement like reaching out to pick up a glass of water can be a complex motor task to study. Not only does your brain have to figure out which muscles to contract and in which order to steer your hand to the glass, it also has to estimate the force needed to pick up the glass. Other factors, like how much water is in the glass and what material the glass is made from, also influence the brains calculations. Not surprisingly, there are many anatomical regions which are involved in motor function.''
 
Therefore this thread should be in the science subforum.

Shouldn't the entire philosophy forum be a thread in some science sub-forum?

Somewhere I read that most species have objective brains ... that is, a brain solely concerned with survival. They then went on to claim that, say, a Lion would have just such a brain. They gave the Lion-brain a value of 1 just to set the standard on this unknown scalar field. They then worked out that we (homo-sapiens) have a value seven times larger than a Lion. We get a 7.

But the really interesting part here is that when they calculated the values of the other species, Dolphins n whales came out with a 6. Pigs a 4-5. Monkeys a 3. And Octopus ... right up there tail-gating the Dolphins. This was a little dis-heartening from an anthromorphic viewpoint .. what right did Octopus have to be as smart as us?

What were they, and what are they, doing with all that extra brain? What do we do with it?

So then the researchers posed the question ... why would Natural Selection positively select for a value greater than 1? I can't remember the answer exactly, I only got a little objective brain (round the 3 value) but I think it turned out that there were intangible benefits that the species as a whole derived from this extra (subjective) brain ... or to put it another way, the subjective-sentinent-brain fools us into thinking we are somebody, big players on the evolutionary field (along with the Dolphins and Octopii of course ... no one's gunna accuse me of being racist) Because we're somebody really important we sacrifice all others to our primary survival, to secure our energy sources. Selection wise this pays off hugely up to a point, but in a closed system every success heralds an ultimate time-unknown failure.
 
A violin is distinct from vibrating air.

Again, what is the point of this stupid, unnecessarily pedantic semantics bullshit?

It's only for those with the ability to think and the ability to draw clear distinctions.

For the mentally incompetent unable to make any meaningful distinctions who see activity as the same thing as inert tissue there are cartoons.

The mind experiences pain.

The brain does not.

That is why they put the mind to sleep to do surgery but do not have to destroy the brain.

They disrupt the activity creating the mind. They disrupt the OBJECTIVE MIND with objective drugs.

But it is not surprising they do not understand how a drug like Propofol works.

Violin generates music

No.

The violin is an inert object that emits vibrations that a human must generate.

The violin can generate nothing. It cannot move anything on it's own.

Your understandings are so twisted.

Because you start with a bad understanding and twist everything in service to it.

ALL “activities” do “specific things.”

Just bad understanding.

The specific thing is a structure with function, a subjective mind.

Not all activities create specific structures with function.

Only a subset of activities do.
 
Last edited:
The right hemisphere on its own is doing all of this since it is not able to communicate things about the spoon (or its left hand) to the left hemisphere. Different parts of that hemisphere are seeing, hearing, feeling, etc. Other posters probably know what parts of the right hemisphere would be involved.

You think saying the words "doing it" is some kind of an understanding.

It isn't.

What specifically is occurring in the brain to achieve a subjective mind is the question of this thread.

Talking about severely damaged brains, brains severed in half with massive damage to tissues doesn't help.
 
In the untermenche world of BS comes there is only one way to create the objective mind....

The dissonance is amazing.

The objective mind is that which creates the subjective mind.

Energy of some kind creates the objective mind.

Subjective is a unique state.

It is not like any state that a human can create.

Those that dismiss the subjective as some normal known phenomena have a blindness that is amazing.


The dissonance is amazing. That much is true.

The dissonance is yours.

The anatomy of movement;
''Almost all of behavior involves motor function, from talking to gesturing to walking. But even a simple movement like reaching out to pick up a glass of water can be a complex motor task to study. Not only does your brain have to figure out which muscles to contract and in which order to steer your hand to the glass, it also has to estimate the force needed to pick up the glass. Other factors, like how much water is in the glass and what material the glass is made from, also influence the brains calculations. Not surprisingly, there are many anatomical regions which are involved in motor function.''

That you post this total non sequitur shows you are done. You should just stop. You have nothing to offer.

You have no understanding of the objective mind.

I doubt you even understand what I mean by the phrase even though I have explained it many times.

The dissonance is thick in here.
 
I did.

The single mind is controlling it.

Unfortunately the brain of that mind has been so damaged the single mind can't talk about it.

You are trying to use the severely damaged to explain the intact. Absurdity!

That's not an explanation. No is it a description of how autonomy of mind is possible. You are just reasserting your claim in another way.

Where is your description of how it is supposed to work?

Where is your evidence?

How is anything possible?

Energy.

The mind has the ability to generate energy in the brain.

The tiniest signal can be amplified in a brain.

How the mind does it is the question.

To know that you have to know what the objective mind is first.
 
Therefore this thread should be in the science subforum.

Shouldn't the entire philosophy forum be a thread in some science sub-forum?

No.

Science is a sub-forum of philosophy.

It is the branch of philosophy that tells us about the physical world using tools given to us by philosophers, like mathematics and logical thinking.

But we are beings with a mental world too.

And science says nothing about that.

Science will not tell us that life is worth living.
 
How is anything possible?

Energy.


That's not an explanation.

The mind has the ability to generate energy in the brain.

The tiniest signal can be amplified in a brain.

How the mind does it is the question.

To know that you have to know what the objective mind is first.


I thought you claimed that nothing is known about the mind. Yet here you are claiming to know something about the mind.

You still haven't offered an explanation for autonomy of mind, how mind could possibly separate itself from the brain in order to be in charge of it.

Nor have you produced evidence that supports your idea.
 
How is anything possible?

Energy.

That's not an explanation.

That's not a valid objection. You asked how something could possibly happen as if it would take a miracle.

That is how something could possibly happen.

The mind has the ability to generate energy in the brain.

The tiniest signal can be amplified in a brain.

How the mind does it is the question.

To know that you have to know what the objective mind is first.

I thought you claimed that nothing is known about the mind.

I know a lot about the subjective mind. I know it is what is choosing my words and directing my hands to type them.

You have your plausible explanation.

You have no valid objection.
 
That's not a valid objection.

It's not an objection. I am merely pointing out that you have given no explanation for autonomy of mind. Asserting that - ''I know a lot about the subjective mind. I know it is what is choosing my words and directing my hands to type them'' - is not an explanation for autonomy of mind.

Nor is it evidence.

You have given neither an explanation or evidence to support your claim of autonomy of mind. You just assert.
 
No.

Science is a sub-forum of philosophy.

That's about as correct and insightful as saying Physics is a sub-field of Chemistry.

No it isn't.

All of science is a small subset of philosophy. All based on a few philosophical assumptions, like that which can be observed in certain ways will be thought of as having an objective existence.

It just so happens that science is extremely useful.

- - - Updated - - -

That's not a valid objection.

It's not an objection. I am merely pointing out that you have given no explanation for autonomy of mind. Asserting that - ''I know a lot about the subjective mind. I know it is what is choosing my words and directing my hands to type them'' - is not an explanation for autonomy of mind.

Nor is it evidence.

You have given neither an explanation or evidence to support your claim of autonomy of mind. You just assert.

So you claim with your autonomous mind.

If your mind isn't autonomous your words have no importance nor can we ever know if they are true.

If we are not autonomous minds we cannot know if anything is true.

We are adrift on some great ocean moving randomly and meaninglessly.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom