The objective mind

[Speakpigeon]

I've never seen such hand waving.

Yes you by magic conceive of a completed infinity.

You are full of shit!

Move on. You have nothing but some worthless claim about something in your mind. It is stupidity.

There's no magic involved. Most people do it and certainly lots of bright people throughout history did. I'm sorry to break the news to you that such bright people as Newton and Leibnitz and Cantor all agreed with me. And they didn't fuss about the fact that we can conceive of infinity. People who can't conceive of it are either complete idiots and people like you who can't see the difference between imagining and conceiving despite being told several times. Oh, wait, I know, you can't see in fact the difference between imagining and conceiving! That's it! And all this fuss because you believe we claim we can imagine infinity. How pathetic is that?!

So, let's start again on the right foot this time, shall we? We claim that we are able to conceive of infinity. Nobody serious ever claimed to be able to imagine infinity.

So, how do you feel about that? Friends again?
EB

You can't conceive of a completed infinity.

Oh, yes, I can. The interval of Real numbers or even Rational numbers between 0 and 1 and many other possibilities. Even an infinite past with a beginning. Or with two beginnings. Easy pie.

None of those people ever claimed a completed infinity was possible. You alone hold this position.

What's a dx going to zero if not a "completed" infinity?! Not only it's possible to conceive of it but it's also rather trivial.

Your claims that you can conceive of completed infinities are childish lies.

Please show me your evidence for that rather idiotic claim.

Your position is total shit.

This is for adults, not little lying children that stomp their feet and cry that they can do the impossible in their mind.

These children take this position as a last resort when no rational positions are available.

To imagine something means it is accessible.

You can imagine one cow, imagine two cows.

Imagine a number of cows that can't be counted.

Imagine cows filling the universe.

In every imagining you have a finite amount of cows.

There is no possible way to imagine infinite cows. Infinity is not an amount. It is the concept of ever increasing amount.

It is possible to imagine something increasing and increasing. But impossible to imagine a completed infinity. Anything completed in the imagination is finite. It is there to be fully appreciated.

If you can't imagine infinite cows then claims that you can conceive of infinite cows is just stupidity.

And there you go again. It's conceive, not imagine. Apparently, you don't understand the difference. Thinking in the abstract clearly isn't your forte. You can't conceive that we can conceive, I guess.
EB

 

[untermensche]

You have a claim you can conceive of something that is impossible to imagine.

You are full of shit.

Your position is idiotic.

It is akin to those who say god is real because they can conceive him.

You can't prove they aren't conceiving actual gods.

 

[steve_bank]

EB vs untermence. As Spock would say 'fascinating'.

 

[Speakpigeon]

You have a claim you can conceive of something that is impossible to imagine.

Explain why it would be impossible to conceive of something we can't imagine.

You are full of shit.

Your position is idiotic.

It is akin to those who say god is real because they can conceive him.

Explain how that would be "akin".

You can't prove they aren't conceiving actual gods.

What does that even mean?

I can't prove that the god they may conceive of doesn't exist?

I can't prove that they are not conceiving of actual god as opposed to conceiving of non-existant gods?

I don't know but either way that's completely irrelevant.

Still. Good job. You're the expert here in the devious fudge. I'm not even sure you realise it makes you look really bad.
EB

 

[untermensche]

EB vs untermence. As Spock would say 'fascinating'.

Not to me.

It is an adult telling a child they are full of shit.

"No little Billy you cannot conceive of any completed infinities. Now go and play outside."

 

[untermensche]

Explain why it would be impossible to conceive of something we can't imagine.



Explain how that would be "akin".

You can't prove they aren't conceiving actual gods.

What does that even mean?

I can't prove that the god they may conceive of doesn't exist?

I can't prove that they are not conceiving of actual god as opposed to conceiving of non-existant gods?

I don't know but either way that's completely irrelevant.

Still. Good job. You're the expert here in the devious fudge. I'm not even sure you realise it makes you look really bad.
EB

Nobody taken seriously in history ever claimed they could conceive of completed infinities.

That is pulled from your ass.

This is on the level of religious idiocy.

You hide behind a worthless claim of being able to conceive of something in your mind.

It is the absolute worst!

A claim that one can conceive of something in their mind is the lowest claim possible.

It is totally worthless.

Prove you have actually conceived it in your mind.

The claim is absolutely worthless!!!

 

[DBT]

You were provided with quotes and links to numerous experiments and studies on motor function in relation to the brain, you ignore all of it, you ignore everything that does not suit your belief in autonomy of mind.

But I was provided NO quotes about the objective mind and how it specifically operates or what it can do.

You want to make claims about the objective mind without even knowing what it is.

Your position is religious rubbish.

PERIOD!

It was explained to you that there are both a subjective and objective components to conscious experience/mind....information acquired by the brain from its senses being objective, wavelengths of light/sight, pressure waves/hearing, etc. and that this information is used by a brain to form a mental 'picture' of the world and self....information that can be reported, tested, confirmed or rejected; objective information.

Plus the fact that just because it is not understood how a brain forms conscious experience of the world and self does not mean that nothing is understood.

The problem being, you lump both what is understood and what is not understood into the same bin and throw the lot out in favour of your own beliefs, beliefs which fit into neither category, being unsupported, having no evidence.

 

[untermensche]

Nothing is known about the objective mind.

What it is is not known.

What it can do is unknown.

Not one study you could present has any understanding of the objective mind.

 

[DBT]

Nothing is known about the objective mind.

What it is is not known.

What it can do is unknown.

Not one study you could present has any understanding of the objective mind.

If that is the case, you have nothing to say. These being your given conditions, your 'autonomy of mind' because 'I can lift my arm at will' is a bogus claim, bogus based on your own reasons.

 

[untermensche]

Nothing is known about the objective mind.

What it is is not known.

What it can do is unknown.

Not one study you could present has any understanding of the objective mind.

If that is the case, you have nothing to say. These being your given conditions, your 'autonomy of mind' because 'I can lift my arm at will' is a bogus claim, bogus based on your own reasons.

How did you express these ideas from your mind if your mind doesn't have autonomy?

Why does the mind exist at all if, according to you, it has no function?

You give all function to a dumb brain.

In your beliefs the mind is superfluous.

You have used your mind, no evidence, to conclude your mind is superfluous.

It is utterly amusing.

 

[Speakpigeon]

Explain why it would be impossible to conceive of something we can't imagine.



Explain how that would be "akin".

You can't prove they aren't conceiving actual gods.

What does that even mean?

I can't prove that the god they may conceive of doesn't exist?

I can't prove that they are not conceiving of actual god as opposed to conceiving of non-existant gods?

I don't know but either way that's completely irrelevant.

Still. Good job. You're the expert here in the devious fudge. I'm not even sure you realise it makes you look really bad.
EB

Nobody taken seriously in history ever claimed they could conceive of completed infinities.

That is pulled from your ass.

This is on the level of religious idiocy.

You hide behind a worthless claim of being able to conceive of something in your mind.

It is the absolute worst!

A claim that one can conceive of something in their mind is the lowest claim possible.

It is totally worthless.

Prove you have actually conceived it in your mind.

The claim is absolutely worthless!!!

I already gave you two simple and well-known examples of infinities most people can conceive of without even having to raise an eyebrow. Look here:

You can't conceive of a completed infinity.

Oh, yes, I can. The interval of Real numbers or even Rational numbers between 0 and 1 and many other possibilities. Even an infinite past with a beginning. Or with two beginnings. Easy pie.

None of those people ever claimed a completed infinity was possible. You alone hold this position.

What's a dx going to zero if not a "completed" infinity?! Not only it's possible to conceive of it but it's also rather trivial.

So explain to me why you think we can't conceive of those infinities even though mathematicians obviously do it and maths students all learn how to do it, even the mediocre ones.
EB

 

[untermensche]

You don't know the difference between a bounded infinity and a completed infinity.

The fractions between zero and one are bounded but they never can complete. There is no end to them. No matter how many fractions you wrote out there would always be infinite more you did not. The fractions do not complete. They get smaller and smaller without end.

You have not given any example of a completed infinity.

There is no such thing.

 

[Speakpigeon]

You don't know the difference between a bounded infinity and a completed infinity.

The fractions between zero and one are bounded but they never can complete. There is no end to them.

Zero and one are the ends. That's what it means to be boundaries. There is no end in the sense that you cannot actually count them but that's not the point. The point is to consider an interval between 0 and 1 and think of it as having an infinite number of Reals or an infinite number of Rationals in between 0 and 1. And 0 and 1 are obviously the ends of the interval. So, sorry, but your notion that fractions "can never complete" is vacuous.

No matter how many fractions you wrote out there would always be infinite more you did not. The fractions do not complete. They get smaller and smaller without end.

You have not given any example of a completed infinity.

There is no such thing.

Sure I gave you two examples. You're trying to count fractions. Sure, you can't do that but that's irrelevant.

Still, you're right, I don't know the difference between bounded infinity and completed infinity because I don't know what you mean by completed infinity. It's clear to me you are the only one to know. To me, your "completed infinity" is gobbledegook. And you never explained. So, please explain what you mean by "completed infinity".

If that can help, please note that mathematicians mostly think in terms of actual infinities:

“But potential infinity is almost forgotten now,” Simpson said. “In the ZFC set theory mindset, people tend not to even remember that distinction. They just think infinity means actual infinity and that’s all there is to it.”

This essentially means that mathematicians' work involves actual infinities and therefore that they can conceive of actual infinities, or at least that's what they would themselves say. If you want to claim they are mistaken, you'd need to prove your claim. But so far, all you can do is repeat for ever that infinities can never complete.
EB

 

[untermensche]

.....There is no end in the sense that you cannot actually count them but that's not the point......

It is the ENTIRE point.

The point you can't seem to comprehend.

If it were a real completed infinity, every point, all of them, would have to be counted.

A real completed infinity is not something a person can just claim exists without evidence or rational argument.

 

[Speakpigeon]

.....There is no end in the sense that you cannot actually count them but that's not the point......

It is the ENTIRE point.

Excellent, we're making progress here. So, why did it take you so long to make this point explicit?! What stopped you from articulating your idea that each point in an infinity would have to be counted? That's not a difficult notion to articulate. Why did you never make this point explicit?! This is just mind-boggling. You've posted hundreds of posts insisting infinity "cannot completes" without ever articulating that this just means that you think every point of it should be counted it is was to count as an actual infinity.

The point you can't seem to comprehend.

You're being very funny here. You've posted on the subject for years now without being able to explain yourself. You should thank me for just pulling that tooth out of you.

Also, it's a very simplistic view you have here. In effect, you're saying, "I can't count it so it doesn't, it cannot exist". Not only simplistic but rather idiotic.

If it were a real completed infinity, every point, all of them, would have to be counted.

Why would that be? You may just as well say, "if the universe was a real universe, every point of it, all of them, would have to be counted". This is just patently absurd.

A real completed infinity is not something a person can just claim exists without evidence or rational argument.

Sure, but there's no need to get all worked up about that as you've demonstrated yourself to be, going to the point of posting hundreds of posts on the subject and convincing no one because you've been incapable of explaining yourself until today.

Also, please, provide evidence as to who exactly is claiming infinities exist. I don't and I never did. So, please provide the relevant quotes of people who would have claimed infinities exist. This is not something you can just claim without evidence. We need your evidence on that. Go on, provide the quotes!

You're very effectively working yourself into mindless knots about nothing. Me and may people throughout history are claiming we can work out a clear concept of what would be actual infinities, whether they exist or not. I don't know of anyone claiming they know they exist. Maybe many people are convinced they exist but that's different and a perfectly rational attitude to have since we don't have any proof of the contrary.

Me, I've always insisted I can conceive of infinities. So, what's your problem with that? So, far you've been unable to explain yourself in this respect or mostly you're going as usual into irrelevant comments. Try to focus on the question for once. What is your problem with the idea of conceiving of actual infinities?

Anyway, it seems we know at last what your complaint is and it is a pathetic complaint and one clearly without foundation. It can't be supported either by evidence or argument. But it's up to you to try to argue your case. Go on. You're on your way here!
EB

 

[untermensche]

....So, why did it take you so long to make this point explicit?!...

I've made it explicit for years.

Some just are not prepared to hear it.

 

[steve_bank]

.....There is no end in the sense that you cannot actually count them but that's not the point......

It is the ENTIRE point.

The point you can't seem to comprehend.

If it were a real completed infinity, every point, all of them, would have to be counted.

A real completed infinity is not something a person can just claim exists without evidence or rational argument.

Objectivity and subjectivity are not something you can just claim exists.

 

[untermensche]

.....There is no end in the sense that you cannot actually count them but that's not the point......

It is the ENTIRE point.

The point you can't seem to comprehend.

If it were a real completed infinity, every point, all of them, would have to be counted.

A real completed infinity is not something a person can just claim exists without evidence or rational argument.

Objectivity and subjectivity are not something you can just claim exists.

The subjective mind is our experience of a mind.

And I can claim that we have experiences of having a mind.

The objective mind is the how the subjective mind is created.

If the subjective mind exists then it has to exist because of some objective activity.

It can't just exist.

 

[fromderinside]

Actually subjective anything is affect produced by working thinking machines.

 

[steve_bank]

Objectivity and subjectivity are not something you can just claim exists.

The subjective mind is our experience of a mind.

And I can claim that we have experiences of having a mind.

The objective mind is the how the subjective mind is created.

If the subjective mind exists then it has to exist because of some objective activity.

It can't just exist.

So you say. It's all mind. Subjective objective are arbitrary distinctions that serve a purpose in communications.

No matter how precisely you attempt to define objective vs subjective there will always be exceptions and grey areas.