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"The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion"

ZiprHead

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https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/5/15/1857976/--The-Only-Moral-Abortion-is-My-Abortion-an-article-by-Joyce-Arthur

alabama_750x422.jpg

Caption said:
in 1981, 24% of women who had abortions said they were morally wrong. Half of all women that have abortions describe themselves as born-again Christian, Evangelical Christian, or Catholic. I get so angry at the hypocrisy of the women holding the black signs in this photo. They got to choose, but want to remove that right from others.

The link above is to a copyrighted piece about anti-abortion protestors who themselves have abortions. It begins with this.:

When the Anti-Choice Choose

By Joyce Arthur (copyright © September 2000)

Abortion is a highly personal decision that many women are sure they'll never have to think about until they're suddenly faced with an unexpected pregnancy. But this can happen to anyone, including women who are strongly anti-choice. So what does an anti-choice woman do when she experiences an unwanted pregnancy herself? Often, she will grin and bear it, so to speak, but frequently, she opts for the solution she would deny to other women -- abortion.

In the spring of 2000, I collected the following anecdotes directly from abortion doctors and other clinic staff in North America, Australia, and Europe. The stories are presented in the providers' own words, with minor editing for grammar, clarity, and brevity. Names have been omitted to protect privacy.

"I have done several abortions on women who have regularly picketed my clinics, including a 16 year old schoolgirl who came back to picket the day after her abortion, about three years ago. During her whole stay at the clinic, we felt that she was not quite right, but there were no real warning bells. She insisted that the abortion was her idea and assured us that all was OK. She went through the procedure very smoothly and was discharged with no problems. A quite routine operation. Next morning she was with her mother and several school mates in front of the clinic with the usual anti posters and chants. It appears that she got the abortion she needed and still displayed the appropriate anti views expected of her by her parents, teachers, and peers." (Physician, Australia)

Standard hypocrisy on display.
 
I don't know why, but hardly any discussions about right wing abortion hypocrisy ever mention the fact that 70% of abortions in the US are requested by Christian women.

Link from focusonthefamily.com: SURVEY: WOMEN GO SILENTLY FROM CHURCH TO ABORTION CLINIC

(I would have written a different headline, one that doesn't shame women for the circumstances men and their abusive father figure world view puts them in.)

I'd bet my last dollar that way more than 70% of Christians in this country are unaware of that fact in spite it being published in Christian periodicals and web sites and Christian news organizations and the research being done by Christians in a Christian organization.

Ignorant fucking hypocrites. What a fucking disease the Christian world view is, especially when the reality is that no matter what laws and punishments the hypocrites put in place, abortion will always be a privilege and a perk, and a safe option, for affluent Christian women and their husbands' mistresses and rape victims.
 
That explains why they happen to be the main group against abortion. Christians are trying to save other Christians. They need to do that work within the walls of their own churches and leave the rest of the fucking world out of it.
 
The thing that's really weird to me, is how much the attitude towards abortion has changed since the 1980s. I worked as a public health nurse for part of that decade and all but one of my Christian coworkers fully supported the right of women to have a safe, legal abortion.

We had a nurse counselor in NC, who spoke to each woman who chose that option to make sure it was her own decision. Abortions were still paid for by the government during the late 70s and early 80s, if the woman had a low income.

The one nurse who was against abortions had raised a Down's syndrome child to adulthood, but even she didn't feel as if her own beliefs should be pushed on all women. She just didn't want to have to get personally involved with abortions. Since we all worked well together, the other nurses covered for her when it was her turn to do the counseling. That was in the late 70s in SC, where I also worked as a public health nurse for a couple of years.

How did we go from there to here? I assume at least some of it had to do with male preachers telling women that they were sinners if they opted for abortions. I assume that conservative politicians also played a part in the growth of the anti-abortion movement.

It wasn't until the early 90s that I realized how quickly these groups were moving to make it more difficult for women to choose what they decided was best for themselves. I had a coworker who opted for an abortion around 1991. She had to deal with hateful protesters screaming at her as she walked into the clinic. That was in Florida. During that period, a doctor in Pensacola who performed abortions was murdered. Strange that some people care more about a fertilized egg or a fetus than they do about a medical professional's life.

Again, what changed the minds of so many women who previously supported the right of other women to have control over their bodies?
 
That explains why they happen to be the main group against abortion. Christians are trying to save other Christians. They need to do that work within the walls of their own churches and leave the rest of the fucking world out of it.
No, they're not. They're trying to control and punish women. Even though 70% of abortions in the US are requested by Christian women, ask any Christian who has abortions and they'll very likely tell you it's all liberals and atheists. The mechanisms that keep them unaware are powerful and run deep. That ignorance and sense of moral superiority make Christians easy to manipulate by telling them about all the BABIES THAT ARE BEING MURDERED BY EVIL LIBERALS.

The thing that's really weird to me, is how much the attitude towards abortion has changed since the 1980s. I worked as a public health nurse for part of that decade and all but one of my Christian coworkers fully supported the right of women to have a safe, legal abortion.

We had a nurse counselor in NC, who spoke to each woman who chose that option to make sure it was her own decision. Abortions were still paid for by the government during the late 70s and early 80s, if the woman had a low income.

The one nurse who was against abortions had raised a Down's syndrome child to adulthood, but even she didn't feel as if her own beliefs should be pushed on all women. She just didn't want to have to get personally involved with abortions. Since we all worked well together, the other nurses covered for her when it was her turn to do the counseling. That was in the late 70s in SC, where I also worked as a public health nurse for a couple of years.

How did we go from there to here? I assume at least some of it had to do with male preachers telling women that they were sinners if they opted for abortions. I assume that conservative politicians also played a part in the growth of the anti-abortion movement.

It wasn't until the early 90s that I realized how quickly these groups were moving to make it more difficult for women to choose what they decided was best for themselves. I had a coworker who opted for an abortion around 1991. She had to deal with hateful protesters screaming at her as she walked into the clinic. That was in Florida. During that period, a doctor in Pensacola who performed abortions was murdered. Strange that some people care more about a fertilized egg or a fetus than they do about a medical professional's life.

Again, what changed the minds of so many women who previously supported the right of other women to have control over their bodies?

It's not at all surprising to me. Zealotry. The Christian paradigm for understanding the world and ourselves is built on mechanisms for controlling people and keeping them as compliant and ignorant as possible. There's only a tiny fraction of Christian sects and denominations that are not based in this paradigm of sheep allowing a master to think for them. Given this kind of conditioning, literally anyone can step in with the right words and personality and hijack any church or group of Christians.

Whoever first thought up abortion as a Christian moral issue hit the jackpot of control through moral outrage! What is more humane and moral than protecting human life? What human life is more conveniently out of reach in terms of actually doing anything to maintain their care? What is more entangled in some of the worst teachings of Christianity (women are cause of original sin, are below men in hierarchy) and the worst of human nature (aggression, rape, social dominance) than pregnancy?

Christians spend a lot of time in cognitive dissonance rationalizing the backward, inhumane nature of their world view. They're aware of this on some level, and so the "moral" pretense of the abortion zealotry is like a lifeline they can grab onto to continue pretending their world view is humane.

All of this makes the abortion zealotry a politically expedient tool for the wolves who try to wield the power of all those sheep for their own gain. Any remedies for this "problem" of abortion all lie in controlling women. Control their sex lives, their wombs, and punish them for non-compliance. Right here in the US, we have law makers calling for execution of women who have abortions. They're law makers in states and in Washington, not some fringe cult.

Because we must protect precious fetuses. They are innocent and women are guilty. Again, what a fucking jackpot of an issue for right wing authoritarians! WOOT.
 
That explains why they happen to be the main group against abortion. Christians are trying to save other Christians. They need to do that work within the walls of their own churches and leave the rest of the fucking world out of it.
No, they're not. They're trying to control and punish women. Even though 70% of abortions in the US are requested by Christian women, ask any Christian who has abortions and they'll very likely tell you it's all liberals and atheists. The mechanisms that keep them unaware are powerful and run deep. That ignorance and sense of moral superiority make Christians easy to manipulate by telling them about all the BABIES THAT ARE BEING MURDERED BY EVIL LIBERALS.

The thing that's really weird to me, is how much the attitude towards abortion has changed since the 1980s. I worked as a public health nurse for part of that decade and all but one of my Christian coworkers fully supported the right of women to have a safe, legal abortion.

We had a nurse counselor in NC, who spoke to each woman who chose that option to make sure it was her own decision. Abortions were still paid for by the government during the late 70s and early 80s, if the woman had a low income.

The one nurse who was against abortions had raised a Down's syndrome child to adulthood, but even she didn't feel as if her own beliefs should be pushed on all women. She just didn't want to have to get personally involved with abortions. Since we all worked well together, the other nurses covered for her when it was her turn to do the counseling. That was in the late 70s in SC, where I also worked as a public health nurse for a couple of years.

How did we go from there to here? I assume at least some of it had to do with male preachers telling women that they were sinners if they opted for abortions. I assume that conservative politicians also played a part in the growth of the anti-abortion movement.

It wasn't until the early 90s that I realized how quickly these groups were moving to make it more difficult for women to choose what they decided was best for themselves. I had a coworker who opted for an abortion around 1991. She had to deal with hateful protesters screaming at her as she walked into the clinic. That was in Florida. During that period, a doctor in Pensacola who performed abortions was murdered. Strange that some people care more about a fertilized egg or a fetus than they do about a medical professional's life.

Again, what changed the minds of so many women who previously supported the right of other women to have control over their bodies?

It's not at all surprising to me. Zealotry. The Christian paradigm for understanding the world and ourselves is built on mechanisms for controlling people and keeping them as compliant and ignorant as possible. There's only a tiny fraction of Christian sects and denominations that are not based in this paradigm of sheep allowing a master to think for them. Given this kind of conditioning, literally anyone can step in with the right words and personality and hijack any church or group of Christians.

Whoever first thought up abortion as a Christian moral issue hit the jackpot of control through moral outrage! What is more humane and moral than protecting human life? What human life is more conveniently out of reach in terms of actually doing anything to maintain their care? What is more entangled in some of the worst teachings of Christianity (women are cause of original sin, are below men in hierarchy) and the worst of human nature (aggression, rape, social dominance) than pregnancy?

Christians spend a lot of time in cognitive dissonance rationalizing the backward, inhumane nature of their world view. They're aware of this on some level, and so the "moral" pretense of the abortion zealotry is like a lifeline they can grab onto to continue pretending their world view is humane.

All of this makes the abortion zealotry a politically expedient tool for the wolves who try to wield the power of all those sheep for their own gain. Any remedies for this "problem" of abortion all lie in controlling women. Control their sex lives, their wombs, and punish them for non-compliance. Right here in the US, we have law makers calling for execution of women who have abortions. They're law makers in states and in Washington, not some fringe cult.

Because we must protect precious fetuses. They are innocent and women are guilty. Again, what a fucking jackpot of an issue for right wing authoritarians! WOOT.

It's primarily White evangelical Christian women who are against abortion, not all Christian women.


https://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/public-opinion-on-abortion/


About three-quarters of White evangelical Protestants (77%) think abortion should be illegal in all or most cases.

By contrast, 82% of religiously unaffiliated Americans say abortion should be legal in all or most cases, as do 64% of Black Protestants, 63% of White Protestants who are not evangelical, and 55% of Catholics.

Though abortion is a divisive issue, more than half of U.S. adults take a non-absolutist position, saying that in most – but not all – cases, abortion should be legal (34%) or illegal (26%). Fewer take the position that in all cases abortion should be either legal (25%) or illegal (13%).

I think it's more of a right wing issue and right wing men in power have used this issue to manipulate evangelical Christian women to stay with the Republican Party. Christians are a very diverse group. My Christian friends are very liberal and support the right of women to have abortions, even if some of them wouldn't opt for it personally.

I suppose the change has come from the persistence of evangelicals pushing their ideology into mainstream politics. Evangelicals numbers are falling so there is hope. My mother was an evangelical, but not once did she bring up the topic of abortion and she always supported the Democrats, at least since the late 1960s. Even some evangelicals think for themselves when it comes to how they vote.


About six-in-ten Republicans and those who lean toward the Republican Party (63%) say abortion should be illegal in all or most cases. By contrast, 80% of Democrats and those who lean toward the Democratic Party say abortion should be legal in all or most cases.
 
Of course #notallChristians. Those #notall Christians are irrelevant to the fact that the worst of Christianity is now mainstream in the US. Irrelevant.

Their Christianity does nothing to help with the problems of mainstream Christianity. Congrats to them for the fact that their ordinary humanity is morally and intellectually superior to the religion they claim, but the simple fact that they call themselves Christians means nothing. They're obviously too small in number to have any effect on popular Christian ideas that have overrun our country. Their Christianity is literally meaningless in the fight against depraved religious zealotry strangling our politics. There is no good reason to shout out that you also wear that color of hat but you don't act like the rest of the gang. Meaningless, not helpful in the least.

The only reason a sane, non-mainstream, non-cultish, liberal Christian would pipe up and say #notall is because their Christian identity separates them from the rest of us, no matter how many issues they agree with non-Christian liberals on. That is the nature of religious identity and sometimes political and national identity.

If you recognize how the Christian identity is overwhelmed with zealotry, then you should recognize how powerful identity is in human thought and behavior and have the courage to maybe stop worshiping your own label so much and contributing to that mainstream you supposedly disagree with. Show that you understand the reasons identity is so easily hijacked by cults and I might pay attention to your irrelevant and pitiful cries of #notall.

The reasons for chirping #notallChristians have nothing to do with values, morals, goodness, intelligence, or anything else Christians think they are because of their Christianity and they are not like those Christians. Who fucking cares if #notall? "I'm a Nazi, but I'm one of the good ones that thinks Jews are equal to white people in all ways and deserve the same respect as anyone else. I'm not one of those Nazis."

It's a stupid label. If you're good and moral person, that label should not be more important to you than being a good and moral person. Yet no matter how many times this is pointed out, those claiming an identity that inherently separates them from humanity through the world view associated with it will never have the wherewithal to question that. They'll just continue to self righteously assert #notall and continue to be useless in ridding humanity of toxic tribalism.
 
Again, what changed the minds of so many women who previously supported the right of other women to have control over their bodies?

Well the right wing religious leaders like Jerry Falwell were finding that their call to action for pro-segregation was starting to not be as accepted as it used to. So on a conference call for some other issue with which to raise money get people morally concerned someone suggested abortion

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPsderlzd6c&t=317s[/YOUTUBE]
 
Again, what changed the minds of so many women who previously supported the right of other women to have control over their bodies?

Perhaps the realization that women are competent adults capable of making their own choices before choosing sex that results in pregnancy?

Maybe that's it? Women are competent adults, capable of both making their own choices and dealing with the results of their own choices? They're not victims of their progeny or the men who help create the progeny?

How about that? Women are free to choose their own sex lives. But also responsible for the choices that they make.
Tom
 
Again, what changed the minds of so many women who previously supported the right of other women to have control over their bodies?

Perhaps the realization that women are competent adults capable of making their own choices before choosing sex that results in pregnancy?

Maybe that's it? Women are competent adults, capable of both making their own choices and dealing with the results of their own choices? They're not victims of their progeny or the men who help create the progeny?

How about that? Women are free to choose their own sex lives. But also responsible for the choices that they make.
Tom

Women also have the right to privacy and make ALL her own choices about her body. You have to invade her privacy to even know if she had an abortion in order to punish her.

Nature, or God if you like, already provides an arbiter for the often difficult question of abortion - the WOMAN.

Anyway, the answer to the question is that a Christian upbringing and beliefs prime you for manipulation and control by whomever you consider an authority figure. So when someone decided to frame abortion as a moral issue, it appealed to all the elements of the Christian world view, including the sense of moral superiority and the idea that women are responsible for the evil in the world. It's kind of a no-brainer why Christians were so easy to incite into zealotry over abortion.
 
Again, what changed the minds of so many women who previously supported the right of other women to have control over their bodies?

Perhaps the realization that women are competent adults capable of making their own choices before choosing sex that results in pregnancy?

Tom
Although feminists desire the authority of men they really only want the responsibilities society gives to children and minors.

Just look at family court proceedings if you don't believe this is correct.
 
"The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion"

Again, what changed the minds of so many women who previously supported the right of other women to have control over their bodies?

Perhaps the realization that women are competent adults capable of making their own choices before choosing sex that results in pregnancy?

Tom
Although feminists desire the authority of men they really only want the responsibilities society gives to children and minors.

Just look at family court proceedings if you don't believe this is correct.

That’s a bit vague and nonsensical.

Look at the Sunday Comics if you don’t believe it.
 
Again, what changed the minds of so many women who previously supported the right of other women to have control over their bodies?

Perhaps the realization that women are competent adults capable of making their own choices before choosing sex that results in pregnancy?

Maybe that's it? Women are competent adults, capable of both making their own choices and dealing with the results of their own choices? They're not victims of their progeny or the men who help create the progeny?

How about that? Women are free to choose their own sex lives. But also responsible for the choices that they make.
Tom
Since abortion is a choice and the chooser is responsible for her choice, how does your response answer the question about what changed the minds of so many women who previously supported the right of other women to be free to choose their own sex lives and be responsible for the choices they make?
 
Although feminists desire the authority of men they really only want the responsibilities society gives to children and minors.

Just look at family court proceedings if you don't believe this is correct.

That’s a bit vague and nonsensical.

Look at the Sunday Comics if you don’t believe it.

I found [MENTION=98]Angry Floof[/MENTION]; response more vague and nonsensical. Post #11.
Tom
 
Again, what changed the minds of so many women who previously supported the right of other women to have control over their bodies?

Perhaps the realization that women are competent adults capable of making their own choices before choosing sex that results in pregnancy?

Maybe that's it? Women are competent adults, capable of both making their own choices and dealing with the results of their own choices? They're not victims of their progeny or the men who help create the progeny?

How about that? Women are free to choose their own sex lives. But also responsible for the choices that they make.
Tom
Since abortion is a choice and the chooser is responsible for her choice, how does your response answer the question about what changed the minds of so many women who previously supported the right of other women to be free to choose their own sex lives and be responsible for the choices they make?

It's right there in my first sentence.
Tom
 
Again, what changed the minds of so many women who previously supported the right of other women to have control over their bodies?

Perhaps the realization that women are competent adults capable of making their own choices before choosing sex that results in pregnancy?

Maybe that's it? Women are competent adults, capable of both making their own choices and dealing with the results of their own choices? They're not victims of their progeny or the men who help create the progeny?

How about that? Women are free to choose their own sex lives. But also responsible for the choices that they make.
Tom

And the girls and women who don’t choose to have sex at all no didn’t choose to have sex the time that the man’s ejaculation resulted in pregnancy—you know: those who were raped. Or who choose to use birth control that failed? Or have sex with men who say they will use a condom but do not? Or who otherwise sabotage her birth control?

What about the women who learn that the pregnancy cannot result in a living child? Or a child whose life will be anything other than filled with pain and suffering before they die? What about the women who have ectopic pregnancies? Who are not women but 11 or12 year old girls? Whose pregnancies cause serious threat to their health or very lives?
 
Since abortion is a choice and the chooser is responsible for her choice, how does your response answer the question about what changed the minds of so many women who previously supported the right of other women to be free to choose their own sex lives and be responsible for the choices they make?

It's right there in my first sentence.
Tom
To me, that reply indicates that your answer is that saying that women are competent enough adults to capable of making their own choices before choosing sex that results in pregnancy but not competent enough to make their own choices in whether or not to carry their fetus to term. To me, that is illogical.
 
Since abortion is a choice and the chooser is responsible for her choice, how does your response answer the question about what changed the minds of so many women who previously supported the right of other women to be free to choose their own sex lives and be responsible for the choices they make?

It's right there in my first sentence.
Tom
To me, that reply indicates that your answer is that saying that women are competent enough adults to capable of making their own choices before choosing sex that results in pregnancy but not competent enough to make their own choices in whether or not to carry their fetus to term. To me, that is illogical.

Basically, women are allowed to say yes to whatever a man wants but are not allowed to have their own wishes, hopes and dreams or control over their own body.

Truly we exist only to serve.
 
To me, that reply indicates that your answer is that saying that women are competent enough adults to capable of making their own choices before choosing sex that results in pregnancy but not competent enough to make their own choices in whether or not to carry their fetus to term. To me, that is illogical.

Basically, women are allowed to say yes to whatever a man wants but are not allowed to have their own wishes, hopes and dreams or control over their own body.

Truly we exist only to serve.

Yeah yeah.

That's exactly what I meant by
women are competent adults capable of making their own choices before choosing sex that results in pregnancy?

We've been around this block before. I'm not interested in doing it again.
Tom
 
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