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"The Only Thing That Stops A Bad Guy With A Gun..."

Ford

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If you've been paying even passing attention to the rhetoric coming from the NRA over the past couple years, you can finish this sentence...

"Is a good guy with a gun."

Well a little incident at a Cici's Pizza and a Wal Mart in Las Vegas may have put the lie to that talking point.

The first two victims of the "bad guys" were not innocent children, or hapless civilians, but armed, trained police officers. The very "good guys with guns" we count upon to patrol our cities.

The next victim? An intrepid armed citizen named Joseph Robert Wilcox...just the sort of fellow that Wayne LaPierre tells us we need to depend upon. What happened?

After executing two Las Vegas police officers at a CiCi’s Pizza, Jerad Miller entered a nearby Wal-Mart, at Nellis Boulevard and Stewart Avenue, fired a round in the air and ordered everyone to leave, setting off a panic.

It was at that point, instead of running, Wilcox approached Jerad Miller from behind.

Law enforcement sources said Wilcox, who had a concealed weapons permit and carried a handgun, was ready to “end it” when Amanda Miller, who was behind Wilcox, shot and killed him.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/crime-courts/family-mourns-man-killed-while-trying-stop-shooting-spree

So the "good guys" outnumbered the "bad guys." Guns were all around. There was even an armed American at the ready.

The result? The good guys didn't stop the bad guys.


Am I missing something here?
 
We need more good people with guns. There weren't enough good people with guns. Duh.
 
We need more good people with guns. There weren't enough good people with guns. Duh.

I'm sure that will be their argument. But when you have a bunch of good guys with a gun, how do you know who the bad guy is? A good guy with a gun said he came very close to shooting the guy who disarmed Jared Loughner because in that instant he assumed that he was the shooter.
 
You beat me to it with this thread... right down to the subject line LOL

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25728824/coroner-identifies-man-killed-at-wal-mart

According to this article, Wilcox walked right past Amanda Miller towards Jerad Miller. Given the number of women who also attend those pro-gun rallies, why didn't it even occur to him that she might be armed, too?

From everything I've read, it sounds to me like she was the dominate murderous nutcase in this couple.
 
Do they say "The only thing that stops a bad guy..." or "The only thing which can stop a bad guy..."? Because if it is the latter (or something like it), they are not claiming that a good guy with a gun will definitely stop a bad guy with a gun, just that it is your only chance to stop the bad guy. As an analogy, if I were to say that the only team who can stop Brazil from winning the World Cup is Spain, then I am not saying that Spain will beat Brazil. I'm not even saying that Spain are favourites to beat Brazil. I'm just saying that they have a chance, and no other team does. And if Brazil were to beat Spain, that doesn't prove I was wrong in my statement.

None of this is relevant to the actual truth of the statement, of course.
 
Do they say "The only thing that stops a bad guy..." or "The only thing which can stop a bad guy..."? Because if it is the latter (or something like it), they are not claiming that a good guy with a gun will definitely stop a bad guy with a gun, just that it is your only chance to stop the bad guy.

Actually, even if they mean the former, they are not claiming that a good guy with a gun always stops a bad guy with a gun. That is a logical fallacy of affirming the consequent.
The logic of their claim is that "If a bad guy with a gun is stopped, then there was a good guy with a gun." It is fallacious to infer that just because there is a good guy with a gun, the bad guy will in fact be stopped. Their claim can also be phrased as "A bad guy with a gun is stopped, only if there is a good guy with a gun." The OP is committing the fallacy of equating "only if" with "if and only if" which are not the same.

None of this is relevant to the actual truth of the statement, of course.

Agreed, though putting forth fallacious arguments is not a good way to persuade people of the falseness of that claim.
 
The idea that you're going to beat someone to the draw, who has already drawn is weapon is absurd. Without adequate law enforcement training you should get the hell out of the way and let the professionals do their job. This rambo wannabe found out the hard way. Actually he never found out because he was dead before he could do a thing. Sad. Very sad. Another victim of our idiotic gun culture. And I have several guns and love to shoot.

SLD
 
The idea that you're going to beat someone to the draw, who has already drawn is weapon is absurd. Without adequate law enforcement training you should get the hell out of the way and let the professionals do their job. This rambo wannabe found out the hard way. Actually he never found out because he was dead before he could do a thing. Sad. Very sad. Another victim of our idiotic gun culture. And I have several guns and love to shoot.

SLD

If the person who already drew is drawing it right at you without distraction, then your right. But in this case he actually did beat the guy to the draw who had already drawn. The problem was that he got shot by the guy's wife who actually beat him to the draw even though he had already drawn. In such cases where there are multiple potential victims or bystanders, the guy with the drawn gun can be beat if he's busy drawing it on someone else, though you better make sure his partner ain't behind you.
 
A little problem with your analysis: It certainly seems like that civilian who intervened was the cause of their crime wave falling apart. Yes, he got killed but he *DID* delay them enough the cops stopped them.
 
The idea that you're going to beat someone to the draw, who has already drawn is weapon is absurd. Without adequate law enforcement training you should get the hell out of the way and let the professionals do their job. This rambo wannabe found out the hard way. Actually he never found out because he was dead before he could do a thing. Sad. Very sad. Another victim of our idiotic gun culture. And I have several guns and love to shoot.

SLD

If the person who already drew is drawing it right at you without distraction, then your right. But in this case he actually did beat the guy to the draw who had already drawn. The problem was that he got shot by the guy's wife who actually beat him to the draw even though he had already drawn. In such cases where there are multiple potential victims or bystanders, the guy with the drawn gun can be beat if he's busy drawing it on someone else, though you better make sure his partner ain't behind you.
No. You leave it to the professionals and don't try to play rambo. It was an incredibly stupid move on his part. You don't know what is going on. You don't know whether there are one, two, or twenty people out there. Just get away and let the professionals handle the situation. These guys were only after law enforcement officers - not citizens and they told everyone to leave. They gave this guy a chance to walk away. He didn't take it and is now dead.

SLD
 
If you've been paying even passing attention to the rhetoric coming from the NRA over the past couple years, you can finish this sentence...

"Is a good guy with a gun."

Well a little incident at a Cici's Pizza and a Wal Mart in Las Vegas may have put the lie to that talking point.

The first two victims of the "bad guys" were not innocent children, or hapless civilians, but armed, trained police officers. The very "good guys with guns" we count upon to patrol our cities.

The next victim? An intrepid armed citizen named Joseph Robert Wilcox...just the sort of fellow that Wayne LaPierre tells us we need to depend upon. What happened?

After executing two Las Vegas police officers at a CiCi’s Pizza, Jerad Miller entered a nearby Wal-Mart, at Nellis Boulevard and Stewart Avenue, fired a round in the air and ordered everyone to leave, setting off a panic.

It was at that point, instead of running, Wilcox approached Jerad Miller from behind.

Law enforcement sources said Wilcox, who had a concealed weapons permit and carried a handgun, was ready to “end it” when Amanda Miller, who was behind Wilcox, shot and killed him.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/crime-courts/family-mourns-man-killed-while-trying-stop-shooting-spree

So the "good guys" outnumbered the "bad guys." Guns were all around. There was even an armed American at the ready.

The result? The good guys didn't stop the bad guys.


Am I missing something here?


A few years back, I had to give a lecture on automobile safety. Airbags had just been made standard equipment and it was a hot topic. I was doing some research to get my dates correct and I realized something which should have been obvious. From the early days of film and following into the television era, the scene of a car crashing over a cliff and bursting into flames was a very common cliche. The shot of the burning car was always followed by a cut to the hero, who was lying in the grass, after happily leaping from the car, before it went over the edge. This was the origin of "being thrown free" of an accident. It's just about as stupid an idea ever conceived, but that's the power of visual media.

How does a good guy with a gun in Wal-mart get shot in the back? Simple. He watched too much TV.

He failed to realize a fundamental fact about guns, which is, a gun is useless as a defensive weapon.

When a good guy with a gun confronts a bad guy with a gun, the GGWG has some quick decisions to make. There is really only three possible scenarios. In scene one, the BGWG surrenders. This is the TV scenario. In scene two, the BGWG shoots the GGWG. In scene three, the GGWG shoots the BBWG.

Scene one is pretty unrealistic, so it doesn't really need much discussion.

Scene three is the real problem. No one is actually a bad guy until they do something bad. If you shoot the wrong person, you can be a good guy, anymore. The rules are pretty clear on this, shooting the wrong person, even with the best intentions, is a total fuckup. On the other hand, hesitation can be fatal.

Our Wal-mart GGWG heard the BGWG fire a shot, so he responds and walks right past a BWWG to confront the BGWG. This was a serious mistake, because she shot him in the back. If he had more time, he might of had a better plan. We can analyze his tactics in the safety of our keyboard. His obvious mistake was letting the bad guy see him. Up to that point, the only thing BGWG had done was discharge a firearm in a public place, probably not even a felony. GGWG is lacking critical information, and in the meantime, gets shot in the back.

Movies and TV make it look way too easy. No one on TV ever has to decide whether to shoot first and risk becoming a felon if you shoot the wrong person, or waiting and getting shot.

The GGWG scenario is about as stupid as the "being thrown free of the accident" scenario and both offer false comfort against the fear of the horrible.
 
The idea that you're going to beat someone to the draw, who has already drawn is weapon is absurd. Without adequate law enforcement training you should get the hell out of the way and let the professionals do their job. This rambo wannabe found out the hard way. Actually he never found out because he was dead before he could do a thing. Sad. Very sad. Another victim of our idiotic gun culture. And I have several guns and love to shoot.

SLD

If the person who already drew is drawing it right at you without distraction, then your right. But in this case he actually did beat the guy to the draw who had already drawn. The problem was that he got shot by the guy's wife who actually beat him to the draw even though he had already drawn. In such cases where there are multiple potential victims or bystanders, the guy with the drawn gun can be beat if he's busy drawing it on someone else, though you better make sure his partner ain't behind you.
No. You leave it to the professionals and don't try to play rambo. It was an incredibly stupid move on his part. You don't know what is going on. You don't know whether there are one, two, or twenty people out there. Just get away and let the professionals handle the situation. These guys were only after law enforcement officers - not citizens and they told everyone to leave. They gave this guy a chance to walk away. He didn't take it and is now dead.

SLD


I'm not saying it was a smart move, just that his death doesn't support your claim that he couldn't have beaten the guy with a gun to the draw. He did, and he might be an alive hero without the wife doing the same to him. Not doing it because their might be other assailants is a different reason than not doing it because you have no change of getting the drop on a guy with a gun already drawn.
 
A little problem with your analysis: It certainly seems like that civilian who intervened was the cause of their crime wave falling apart. Yes, he got killed but he *DID* delay them enough the cops stopped them.

Ya, it's lucky he was there. Otherwise the cops wouldn't have been able to realize that they were in the Walmart with the more obscure clue of everyone running out while screaming that there were two people matching the description of the cop killers they were looking for firing off guns there.

Exactly what delay is it that you feel he caused?
 
A little problem with your analysis: It certainly seems like that civilian who intervened was the cause of their crime wave falling apart. Yes, he got killed but he *DID* delay them enough the cops stopped them.

Ya, it's lucky he was there. Otherwise the cops wouldn't have been able to realize that they were in the Walmart with the more obscure clue of everyone running out while screaming that there were two people matching the description of the cop killers they were looking for firing off guns there.

Exactly what delay is it that you feel he caused?


Tom Sawyer
Professional killer of rationaizations
:)
 
The idea that you're going to beat someone to the draw, who has already drawn is weapon is absurd. Without adequate law enforcement training you should get the hell out of the way and let the professionals do their job. This rambo wannabe found out the hard way. Actually he never found out because he was dead before he could do a thing. Sad. Very sad. Another victim of our idiotic gun culture. And I have several guns and love to shoot.

SLD


If the person who already drew is drawing it right at you without distraction, then your right. But in this case he actually did beat the guy to the draw who had already drawn. The problem was that he got shot by the guy's wife who actually beat him to the draw even though he had already drawn. In such cases where there are multiple potential victims or bystanders, the guy with the drawn gun can be beat if he's busy drawing it on someone else, though you better make sure his partner ain't behind you.

I have to agree with this, and in general bystander intervention in violent situations. You just don't know whose side the other people (strangers) are on. They may not just be bystanders, but accomplices that simply haven't revealed where they stand (from the individual bystander's perspective). It's why I'm generally against criticism of bystanders for not intervening in ongoing crimes, especially violent ones.
 
A little problem with your analysis: It certainly seems like that civilian who intervened was the cause of their crime wave falling apart. Yes, he got killed but he *DID* delay them enough the cops stopped them.

wrong. Two cops were dead across the street. The other cops were outside but the pair committed suicide first. The shooters did not shoot at anyone inside the Walmart (except the guy who rushed them) and told everyone else to get out.

Bottom line, Wilcox was another wanna-be cop with too much gun-induced bravado who thought "standing your ground" meant inserting one's self into a potentially dangerous situation for no justifiable reason. The only difference between this bozo and George Zimmerman is that George Zimmerman went after an un-armed innocent. This dingaling went after actual bad guys and got himself dead for his efforts.
 
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Maybe I missed it but I didn't see anyone say the following about LaPierre's statement that "the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun" is that Antoinette Tuff would disagree.
 
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