The Palestinians And The Mid East

[Loren Pechtel]

What makes you think the Israeli rocket is more likely to hit a Hamas member than the Palestinian attacks are to hit the an IDF member? Service in the IDF is mandatory for all citizens with very few exceptions, and service members who have completed their mandatory duty go immediately into the active reserve. They can be called into active duty at any time until they're 40. The chances of an Israeli citizen being a member of the military is very high, far higher than the chance a random Gazan is a member of Hamas.

Hamas hides in the cities, there's a chance a round would fall on a Hamas facility. The areas the fire balloons are dropping is purely civilian, the only way to hit the IDF would be if someone was passing through and they would no doubt be in a vehicle that would protect them.

Anyway, your claim was that the kites and rockets were aimed at civilian areas and therefore a war crime. Setting aside your blatant hypocrisy (you didn't mind when Israel dropped white phosphorus on Gaza neighborhoods and cluster bombs on civilian areas of Lebanon), how about making a genuine effort to support your claim that the rockets and kites were 'aimed' or that arson is a war crime. Or you could just abandon it.

The point of the balloons and kites is to go past the IDF forces and hit the civilian areas behind.

As for white phosphorous--it's a standard military smoke screen, the incident that was all over the news involved Hamas using a target you wouldn't have liked hit as cover.

And Israel was using cluster bombs on Hezbollah. It doesn't matter that they were in civilian areas.

- - - Updated - - -

The Muslims considered the land conquered for Islam and can't stomach it becoming non-Islamic.

Israel kicked 700,000 Muslims out of their homes because they couldn't stomach them in Muslim hands.

Israel has then continually stolen Muslim land because it couldn't stomach it being in Muslim hands.

The Palestinians have taken nothing in 70 years.

Their homes have been destroyed their lands taken.

Their children have been kidnapped tortured and killed by an insane bunch of anti-Muslim bigots.

Most of those 700,000 left at Arab behest before the fighting started.

 

[Jayjay]

Hamas hides in the cities, there's a chance a round would fall on a Hamas facility. The areas the fire balloons are dropping is purely civilian, the only way to hit the IDF would be if someone was passing through and they would no doubt be in a vehicle that would protect them.



The point of the balloons and kites is to go past the IDF forces and hit the civilian areas behind.

As for white phosphorous--it's a standard military smoke screen, the incident that was all over the news involved Hamas using a target you wouldn't have liked hit as cover.

And Israel was using cluster bombs on Hezbollah. It doesn't matter that they were in civilian areas.

- - - Updated - - -

The Muslims considered the land conquered for Islam and can't stomach it becoming non-Islamic.

Israel kicked 700,000 Muslims out of their homes because they couldn't stomach them in Muslim hands.

Israel has then continually stolen Muslim land because it couldn't stomach it being in Muslim hands.

The Palestinians have taken nothing in 70 years.

Their homes have been destroyed their lands taken.

Their children have been kidnapped tortured and killed by an insane bunch of anti-Muslim bigots.

Most of those 700,000 left at Arab behest before the fighting started.

You know the Zionists at the time urged them also to leave, right? And what's so bad at Arabs telling other Arabs to get out of the way and save their lives because there is a war going on? Isn't using civilians as cover exactly what you are now blaming Hamas for when they "hide in cities"?

 

[steve_bank]

What we now call Palestinians were recruited by the Arabs to fight in the first war. When Israel prevailed the Arabs abandoned the Palestinians. When Egypt had control of Gaza it did nothing. Egypt closed its border before Israel tightened up. The irony is the only real potential friends the Palestinians have is Israel, if they dropped terrorism.

 

[Jayjay]

What we now call Palestinians were recruited by the Arabs to fight in the first war. When Israel prevailed the Arabs abandoned the Palestinians. When Egypt had control of Gaza it did nothing. Egypt closed its border before Israel tightened up. The irony is the only real potential friends the Palestinians have is Israel, if they dropped terrorism.

Hardly. Israel would still want to kick the Palestinians out of whatever land they want to annex. Without terrorism that would be a bit more difficult to justify politically, but on the other hand there would be less resistance to overcome.

 

[untermensche]

Most of those 700,000 left at Arab behest before the fighting started.

A lot of British citizens living in London during WWII left for safety.

It is normal for people to leave a war zone.

And an international crime to forbid them to return with force.

 

[steve_bank]

What we now call Palestinians were recruited by the Arabs to fight in the first war. When Israel prevailed the Arabs abandoned the Palestinians. When Egypt had control of Gaza it did nothing. Egypt closed its border before Israel tightened up. The irony is the only real potential friends the Palestinians have is Israel, if they dropped terrorism.

Hardly. Israel would still want to kick the Palestinians out of whatever land they want to annex. Without terrorism that would be a bit more difficult to justify politically, but on the other hand there would be less resistance to overcome.

Before the Intafasa the border was fairly loose. I watched a show that looked at businesses in Gaza.

Isreal had been a market for Palestinian goods and a gateway to the region. Two highlighted were a soft drink and furniture company that were popular in Isreal. Israelis and Palestinins crossed to work. The Intafada ended up throwing a wrench in Gaza bussiness. Hamas runs large scale smuggling as a busness. Part of the blame for the problems in Gaza and West Bak are from terrorism which wants to stay in power.

I've seen it echoed in Egyptian media, Hamas is political power. There can be no peace progress until they are gone, free elections and easing of tensions with Israel will disenfranchise them. They would have to get day Jobs so to speak.

Neither Hamas nor Netanyahu really want peace, the conflict fits naratives on both sides.

 

[untermensche]

Hamas is what you get when you don't allow people to consolidate power and have a normal police and military.

It is what you get in occupied lands, not free nations.

 

[Jayjay]

Hamas is what you get when you don't allow people to consolidate power and have a normal police and military.

It is what you get in occupied lands, not free nations.

Similar organizations exists in plenty of non-occupied lands as well: Hezbollah in Lebanon, ISIS in Syria and Iraq, Al-Shabaab in Somalia, Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt (of which Hamas is an offshoot), and the list goes on. Besides, there is not much that prevents Gaza from having "a normal police and military".

 

[Arctish]

Hamas is what you get when you don't allow people to consolidate power and have a normal police and military.

It is what you get in occupied lands, not free nations.

Similar organizations exists in plenty of non-occupied lands as well: Hezbollah in Lebanon, ISIS in Syria and Iraq, Al-Shabaab in Somalia, Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt (of which Hamas is an offshoot), and the list goes on. Besides, there is not much that prevents Gaza from having "a normal police and military".

Israel prevents Gaza from having a normal police and military.

I know that sounds like a kneejerk reaction but it's the truth. Israel does not want any arm of the Palestinian government to have enough manpower, firepower, surveillance equipment, or law enforcement ability to police the area or defend it properly. If the Palestinians had a fully funded and properly equipped police and military, they'd have the ability to track, thwart, or possibly even capture Mossad agents and IDF special forces. They would be able to fight with more than just flaming kites and homemade rockets.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You know the Zionists at the time urged them also to leave, right? And what's so bad at Arabs telling other Arabs to get out of the way and save their lives because there is a war going on? Isn't using civilians as cover exactly what you are now blaming Hamas for when they "hide in cities"?

Israel was encouraging them to stay.

And the reason it's relevant is that they weren't run out by Israel. And this was before the war. They were getting out of the way of the planned Arab war.

And they weren't being used as cover.

 

[untermensche]

Hamas is what you get when you don't allow people to consolidate power and have a normal police and military.

It is what you get in occupied lands, not free nations.

Similar organizations exists in plenty of non-occupied lands as well: Hezbollah in Lebanon, ISIS in Syria and Iraq, Al-Shabaab in Somalia, Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt (of which Hamas is an offshoot), and the list goes on. Besides, there is not much that prevents Gaza from having "a normal police and military".

The people in Gaza can have no military. They cannot have a normal police that keep members of foreign nations out.

Yes, similar organizations, organizations not run by the rule of law, exist in many places.

In Gaza they rule because the people are not free.

They are the strongest gang in the prison since there is no system of law.

 

[untermensche]

You know the Zionists at the time urged them also to leave, right? And what's so bad at Arabs telling other Arabs to get out of the way and save their lives because there is a war going on? Isn't using civilians as cover exactly what you are now blaming Hamas for when they "hide in cities"?

Israel was encouraging them to stay.

And the reason it's relevant is that they weren't run out by Israel. And this was before the war. They were getting out of the way of the planned Arab war.

And they weren't being used as cover.

Absolute delusion.

When they tried to return Israel did not allow it. Doesn't sound like somebody who wanted them to stay.

And many report being thrown out by the Israeli military.

All you have on your side is a prejudice that dismisses anything said by a Palestinian.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You know the Zionists at the time urged them also to leave, right? And what's so bad at Arabs telling other Arabs to get out of the way and save their lives because there is a war going on? Isn't using civilians as cover exactly what you are now blaming Hamas for when they "hide in cities"?

Israel was encouraging them to stay.

And the reason it's relevant is that they weren't run out by Israel. And this was before the war. They were getting out of the way of the planned Arab war.

And they weren't being used as cover.

Absolute delusion.

When they tried to return Israel did not allow it. Doesn't sound like somebody who wanted them to stay.

And many report being thrown out by the Israeli military.

All you have on your side is a prejudice that dismisses anything said by a Palestinian.

The ones that left had sided with the enemy in time of war--and furthermore wouldn't agree to be peaceful if they returned. Of course they were kept out!

 

[Arctish]

Absolute delusion.

When they tried to return Israel did not allow it. Doesn't sound like somebody who wanted them to stay.

And many report being thrown out by the Israeli military.

All you have on your side is a prejudice that dismisses anything said by a Palestinian.

The ones that left had sided with the enemy in time of war--and furthermore wouldn't agree to be peaceful if they returned. Of course they were kept out!

What you get wrong about the Jewish Agency, the Transfer Committee, the 100,000 Offer, the reasons people become refugees, and Zionism in Palestine in the 20th century, is so basic and fundamental that I can scarcely believe you ever bothered to look into it.

***ETA: for anyone who hasn't heard of the 100,000 Offer, here's a link to Israeli historian Benny Morris's book The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited.

 

[steve_bank]

Israel hardly wants and would have wanted Arabs coming back. Israel is declared as of, by, and for Jews. Israel faces a serious demographic problem.

If the Palestinians are given citizenship with voting rights, a one state solution, then Israel is no longer a Jewish state and Jews loose power.

Inside Israel Jewish population growth has to keep up with Arab growth. Same problem.

Under Netanyahu there are aggressive Israeli international programs to entice Jews to move to Israel. There is no secret about that.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Absolute delusion.

When they tried to return Israel did not allow it. Doesn't sound like somebody who wanted them to stay.

And many report being thrown out by the Israeli military.

All you have on your side is a prejudice that dismisses anything said by a Palestinian.

The ones that left had sided with the enemy in time of war--and furthermore wouldn't agree to be peaceful if they returned. Of course they were kept out!

What you get wrong about the Jewish Agency, the Transfer Committee, the 100,000 Offer, the reasons people become refugees, and Zionism in Palestine in the 20th century, is so basic and fundamental that I can scarcely believe you ever bothered to look into it.

***ETA: for anyone who hasn't heard of the 100,000 Offer, here's a link to Israeli historian Benny Morris's book The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited.

That doesn't address why, something that probably is talked about on the pages above that aren't visible.

 

[Arctish]

What you get wrong about the Jewish Agency, the Transfer Committee, the 100,000 Offer, the reasons people become refugees, and Zionism in Palestine in the 20th century, is so basic and fundamental that I can scarcely believe you ever bothered to look into it.

***ETA: for anyone who hasn't heard of the 100,000 Offer, here's a link to Israeli historian Benny Morris's book The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited.

That doesn't address why, something that probably is talked about on the pages above that aren't visible.

Well, you could always look into it yourself. This looks like a good place to start: Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus.

It quotes Morris and other historians. You could easily find their work and perhaps the source material too, except for the documents Israel re-classified.

Opening of archives

In the 1980s Israel and United Kingdom opened up part of their archives for investigation by historians. This favored a more critical and factual analysis of the 1948 events. As a result more detailed and comprehensive description of the Palestinian exodus was published, notably Morris' The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem.[6] Morris distinguishes four waves of refugees, the second, third and fourth of them coinciding with Israeli military offensives, when Arab Palestinians fled the fighting, were frightened away, or were expelled.

A document produced by the Israeli Defence Forces Intelligence Service entitled "The Emigration of the Arabs of Palestine in the Period 1/12/1947 – 1/6/1948" was dated 30 June 1948 and became widely known around 1985.

The document details 11 factors which caused the exodus, and lists them "in order of importance":
1.Direct, hostile Jewish [ Haganah/IDF ] operations against Arab settlements.
2.The effect of our [Haganah/IDF] hostile operations against nearby [Arab] settlements... (... especially the fall of large neighbouring centers).
3.Operation of [Jewish] dissidents [ Irgun Tzvai Leumi and Lohamei Herut Yisrael]
4.Orders and decrees by Arab institutions and gangs [irregulars].
5.Jewish whispering operations [psychological warfare], aimed at frightening away Arab inhabitants.
6.Ultimate expulsion orders [by Jewish forces]
7.Fear of Jewish [retaliatory] response [following] major Arab attack on Jews.
8.The appearance of gangs [irregular Arab forces] and non-local fighters in the vicinity of a village.
9.Fear of Arab invasion and its consequences [mainly near the borders].
10.Isolated Arab villages in purely [predominantly] Jewish areas.
11.Various local factors and general fear of the future.[7]

According to Shay Hazkani, "In the past two decades, following the powerful reverberations (concerning the cause of the Nakba) triggered by the publication of books written by those dubbed the “New Historians,” the Israeli archives revoked access to much of the explosive material. Archived Israeli documents that reported the expulsion of Palestinians, massacres or rapes perpetrated by Israeli soldiers, along with other events considered embarrassing by the establishment, were reclassified as “top secret.”[8]

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Well, you could always look into it yourself. This looks like a good place to start: Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus.

Wonderful URL.

 

[Arctish]

Well, you could always look into it yourself. This looks like a good place to start: Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus.

Wonderful URL.

Did you read the article, or did the URL scare you off?

Try this one from the Yeshiva University Commentator. It also cites the IDF intelligence report entitled "The Emigration of the Arabs of Palestine in the Period 1/12/1947-1/6/1948". It's pro-Zionism, which you should like. It's also about the reasons for the exodus of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their homes during the founding of Israel, which you should already know but apparently don't.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Well, you could always look into it yourself. This looks like a good place to start: Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus.

Wonderful URL.

Did you read the article, or did the URL scare you off?

Try this one from the Yeshiva University Commentator. It also cites the IDF intelligence report entitled "The Emigration of the Arabs of Palestine in the Period 1/12/1947-1/6/1948". It's pro-Zionism, which you should like. It's also about the reasons for the exodus of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their homes during the founding of Israel, which you should already know but apparently don't.

I meant it wasn't a URL at all.