The Palestinians And The Mid East

[Loren Pechtel]

You made an assertion--that the Muslims weren't driving out Christians. I called you on it.

Actually, no, I didn't. I said:

BTW, how does this work for Palestinian Christians? They were oppressed to the exact same degree as Jews under Ottoman rule, and they're oppressed now. Does that mean you will support them when they refuse to accept second class status, take up arms, overthrow their oppressors, and drive the non-Christians out of their new Christian State?

Christians were under the same rule as Jews in the Ottoman Empire. Their communities were organized under the same millet system. They had to pay taxes under the same system as everyone else in their region and the İspençe tax levied on all non-Muslims. They followed the same rules that all citizens of the Empire had to follow as well as the rules their own religious leaders required them to follow, the same as Jews.

Note that the Christians are still being oppressed in Muslim lands, not in Israel.

 

[Arctish]

Actually, no, I didn't. I said:



Christians were under the same rule as Jews in the Ottoman Empire. Their communities were organized under the same millet system. They had to pay taxes under the same system as everyone else in their region and the İspençe tax levied on all non-Muslims. They followed the same rules that all citizens of the Empire had to follow as well as the rules their own religious leaders required them to follow, the same as Jews.

Note that the Christians are still being oppressed in Muslim lands, not in Israel.

I note the complete and utter lack of indication you read the links I provided.

I note the complete and utter lack of evidence presented in support of your claim.

And I note that you haven't answered the question. If Christians refuse to accept second class status, take up arms to overthrow their oppressors and drive the non-Christians out of their new Christian State, will you support them?

 

[steve_bank]

There are valid criticisms of Israel. That being said, the Arab and Persian hatred of Jews and the modern attempts to destroy Israel have roots going back centuries.


The average Palestinian should be shaking fists at Iran and the Saudis.

The Palestinians are regional talking points. Neither Iran nor Saudi Arabia care. In American terms the Palestinians to the Arabs are the regional 'poor white trash'. Egypt closed its border with Gaza before Israel did.

The Arabs recruited the Palestinians to fight with the first Arab coalitions to end Israel. When they lost they abandoned the Palestinians. No one wants them.

A few years back I looked at regional mefia outlets. In Iran there were animations depicting Isreal and Jews much like Nazis propaganda. Rats to be exterminated.

No amount of sympathy for the Palestinians will change centuries old dynamics. It is the regional propaganda that is fueling the conflict. Iran and Saudi Arabia leadership are a medieval anachronism. Centuries old religions, ethnic, cultural, and territorial conflict with the Palestinians in the middle.

I listened to a Saudi official proclaim they would die to defend their Muslim sect from the Iranian sect. The result, destruction of Yemen having nothing to do with Israel or the USA.

Culturally the region is sick. There is no other way to put it. Any idea of developing a cooperative region focused on betterment is pure fantasy.

Palestinians will not improve unless they get rid of Iranian backed terrorists. Previous attempts at free elections failed. Neither Hamas or Fata will allow the otter a majority.

Before the Intifada Palestinian's did business in Israel.

You're exaggerating a little here! Jews and Arabs got along pretty well until roughly WW1. Then obviously 1948 blew it away. So, they've hated each other for roughly a 100 years.

I read multiple histories of Islam to get a balnced view.

Treatment of Jews under Islam was spotty and depndended on the local or regional ruler. I read one account of a Jewish riot.

For some period in the Ottoman Empire on paper there was religious tolerance as long as there was loyalty to the state. That generally meant military survice.

From what I read on Israel the founders drew on the Ottomans. Short of civil law all functions can be up to individual religions, such as marriage.

From what I read Mohammed saw Jews as the 'people of the book' who had lost their moral compass and had become corrupted. He saw himself as the last in the line of Abrahamic prophets after Jesus, and he was to restore the Abrahamic faith.

The Christian MJewish split goes back to the fitst ot second century. Ottomans and Christians battled over Europe for centuries.

I can respect an individual's faith, but historically the three faiths have been the source for chaos, and it is still playing out today. They all say they pray to the same god. Bizarre to say the least. It is like a Star Trek episode when Kirk and company come upon a planet where people are slaughtering each other over variations in a faith.

Iran is the worst actor, but they are all contributors.

Look at a regional map. Jerusalem to Cairo is around 250 miles. Draw a circle around Israel. it is all happening in a very small area. Utter nonsensical tragedy. Even if Israel had not forms, the regional would still have become a mess when the Brits pulled out.

As it was the Arabs went to the Russians, and the Arab-Israeli conflict became a Cold War proxy fight.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Actually, no, I didn't. I said:



Christians were under the same rule as Jews in the Ottoman Empire. Their communities were organized under the same millet system. They had to pay taxes under the same system as everyone else in their region and the İspençe tax levied on all non-Muslims. They followed the same rules that all citizens of the Empire had to follow as well as the rules their own religious leaders required them to follow, the same as Jews.

Note that the Christians are still being oppressed in Muslim lands, not in Israel.

I note the complete and utter lack of indication you read the links I provided.

I note the complete and utter lack of evidence presented in support of your claim.

And I note that you haven't answered the question. If Christians refuse to accept second class status, take up arms to overthrow their oppressors and drive the non-Christians out of their new Christian State, will you support them?

The problem with your comparison is the Jews didn't drive out non-Jews. They drove out a small number who were attacking them, they refused to allow the return of a far larger number that had left at Arab behest.

 

[Arctish]

The problem with your comparison is the Jews didn't drive out non-Jews.

You don't do your arguments or your reputation any good by claiming ignorance, especially when links to the information you supposedly lack has been presented in-thread. And you still haven't answered the question.

If Christians refuse to accept second class status, take up arms to overthrow their oppressors and drive the non-Christians out of their new Christian State, will you support them?

Suppose they aren't trying to form a Christian State. Suppose all they're doing is taking up arms and rebelling. Will you support them?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The problem with your comparison is the Jews didn't drive out non-Jews.

You don't do your arguments or your reputation any good by claiming ignorance, especially when links to the information you supposedly lack has been presented in-thread. And you still haven't answered the question.

If Christians refuse to accept second class status, take up arms to overthrow their oppressors and drive the non-Christians out of their new Christian State, will you support them?

Suppose they aren't trying to form a Christian State. Suppose all they're doing is taking up arms and rebelling. Will you support them?

Continuing to cite anti-Jewish propaganda doesn't prove your point.

 

[steve_bank]

Loren is a long time Israel right or wrong apologist.

Israel is fairly tolerant, but Muslims were long under a Jim Crow like system from the beginning, admitted by Israel.

Not having full access to govt resources and loans, discrimination in employment and so on.

I do not buy the Christians as victims mantra. Northern Ireland. Coptics in Egypt are not innocent victims. Christians in Nigeria and Uganda harshly suppress gays. A contingent of conservatives from Congress went over to assist with gay suppression.

Netanyahu paints Israel as protector of Christians. Pure politics directed at American conservatives. I wonder what would happen if Mormons or Evangelicals went door to door in an Israeli conservative neighborhood trolling for converts.

 

[steve_bank]

I note the complete and utter lack of indication you read the links I provided.

I note the complete and utter lack of evidence presented in support of your claim.

And I note that you haven't answered the question. If Christians refuse to accept second class status, take up arms to overthrow their oppressors and drive the non-Christians out of their new Christian State, will you support them?

The problem with your comparison is the Jews didn't drive out non-Jews. They drove out a small number who were attacking them, they refused to allow the return of a far larger number that had left at Arab behest.

As you have done many, many times you hijack a thread into an endless debate on Israel and ignore documented facts. At the end of the war any Palestinians outside the lines were not allowed back in. Land was seized and distributed to Jews without any compensation. I recall you saying because they may not have had documentation that would hold up legally they did not really own land a family had been farming for generations. Pure apologetics.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Loren is a long time Israel right or wrong apologist.

Israel is fairly tolerant, but Muslims were long under a Jim Crow like system from the beginning, admitted by Israel.

Not having full access to govt resources and loans, discrimination in employment and so on.

I do not buy the Christians as victims mantra. Northern Ireland. Coptics in Egypt are not innocent victims. Christians in Nigeria and Uganda harshly suppress gays. A contingent of conservatives from Congress went over to assist with gay suppression.

Netanyahu paints Israel as protector of Christians. Pure politics directed at American conservatives. I wonder what would happen if Mormons or Evangelicals went door to door in an Israeli conservative neighborhood trolling for converts.

You think Muslims in Nigeria and Uganda are gay-friendly?!?!

And what wrongdoing by the Copts are you talking about?

 

[lpetrich]

However much the Palestinian Arabs have suffered at the hands of the Israelis, I cannot be completely happy with their conduct.

For a long time, many Arabs were not happy with any solution less than driving those Zionists into the sea. The Zionists, however, were more willing to compromise and make deals. During World War II, the Zionists stopped attacking Britain, while the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was good buddies with Adolf Hitler After that, the Zionists' attacks on Britain forced British officials into a fortified compound that got nicknamed "Bevingrad". Yes, there were Zionist terrorist organizations, and one-time Prime Minister Menachem Begin was a member of one of them. After Israel went independent, the authorities sank the Altalena, a ship loaded with weapons for one of them, and they were made to join the national army.

Britain decided to turn Palestine over to the United Nations for resolution, and the UN proposed a rather Solomonic peace plan. It was more-or-less a West Bank that surrounded Jerusalem, a larger Gaza Strip, and an Arab area in northwestern Israel. The Zionists were willing to accept it, even though they wanted to grab more land later. The Arabs weren't, and Israel's neighbors sent in armies to try to destroy the new nation. They failed miserably, and many Palestinian Arabs fled their new masters. Their Arab brothers, however, did not do much for them. Jordan and Egypt did not turn the West Bank and the Gaza Strip over to some Palestinian government, and outside of Palestine, many Palestinians ended up in refugee camps, often disliked by the local population.

In the 1950's, Britain and France helped Israel take over the Suez Canal, but President Eisenhower was outraged, and he forced them to retreat.

In 1967, the Arabs lost miserably to Israel, and Israel took over not only all of Palestine, but also the Sinai Peninsula and the Golan Heights. Also in that war, Israel attacked and sank the US spy ship USS Liberty, an incident that US officials covered up for the benefit of Israel.

In 1973, the Arabs fought Israel again, but it was mostly a draw. Egypt then made peace with Israel and got the Sinai Peninsula back. But President Anwar Sadat, who made that deal, was assassinated for supposedly selling out to Israel.


Most recently, Hamas has been shooting rockets into Israel from the Gaza Strip. But a certain someone here (he knows who he is), has been claiming that that act is so odious that it justifies imitating it by killing Palestinian civilians in Gaza.

But I've seen the theory that the ferocity of Israel's attacks on the Gaza Strip are to keep its inhabitants busy with rebuilding, much like similar attacks on southern Lebanon.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Most recently, Hamas has been shooting rockets into Israel from the Gaza Strip. But a certain someone here (he knows who he is), has been claiming that that act is so odious that it justifies imitating it by killing Palestinian civilians in Gaza.

You continue to believe the Hamas story that the dead are civilians. Over 80% have been identified as terrorists.

 

[steve_bank]

Classic loren.

Israel is in no way a victim. They invaded Egypt and would have taken Cairo but for the American and European response.

The Suez conflict was a motivation for the 67 war against Israel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suez_Crisis

 

[steve_bank]

Loren is a long time Israel right or wrong apologist.

Israel is fairly tolerant, but Muslims were long under a Jim Crow like system from the beginning, admitted by Israel.

Not having full access to govt resources and loans, discrimination in employment and so on.

I do not buy the Christians as victims mantra. Northern Ireland. Coptics in Egypt are not innocent victims. Christians in Nigeria and Uganda harshly suppress gays. A contingent of conservatives from Congress went over to assist with gay suppression.

Netanyahu paints Israel as protector of Christians. Pure politics directed at American conservatives. I wonder what would happen if Mormons or Evangelicals went door to door in an Israeli conservative neighborhood trolling for converts.

You think Muslims in Nigeria and Uganda are gay-friendly?!?!

And what wrongdoing by the Copts are you talking about?

I an saying Christians can be and are as harsh as conservative Muslims. Bias against gays by Christians in parts of Africa are extreme. Christians and Muslims compete for converts, and disparage each other.

You can do a search on Mulim Coptic conflict in Egypt. Whenever I posted information you ignored it.

The only truly innocent victims are the children in the region.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Classic loren.

Israel is in no way a victim. They invaded Egypt and would have taken Cairo but for the American and European response.

The Suez conflict was a motivation for the 67 war against Israel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suez_Crisis

The 67 conflict that was started by Egypt is somehow an invasion by Israel?

 

[Arctish]

Classic loren.

Israel is in no way a victim. They invaded Egypt and would have taken Cairo but for the American and European response.

The Suez conflict was a motivation for the 67 war against Israel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suez_Crisis

The 67 conflict that was started by Egypt is somehow an invasion by Israel?

Blaming the victim again?

The airstrikes that started the war were planned and executed by Israel.

Israel does not deny it. In fact, the Israelis have always admitted it was a preemptive strike against Egypt.

I think the only reason Israel isn't vilified for it the way Japan was for the attack on Pearl Harbor is because Israel and Egypt didn't have a treaty at the time. A reasonable argument can be made that the strikes were a continuation of the fight over the Sinai that had started and stalled in 1956. But there's nothing reasonable about blaming Egypt for it, not when Israel was trying to take land from Egypt in 1956, just like the Zionists who founded Israel took land from Palestinians in 1948.

 

[ZiprHead]

Start at 2:15 if it doesn't go there automatically.
[YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/0yp7a7f3VGw?t=2h15m58s[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Classic loren.

Israel is in no way a victim. They invaded Egypt and would have taken Cairo but for the American and European response.

The Suez conflict was a motivation for the 67 war against Israel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suez_Crisis

The 67 conflict that was started by Egypt is somehow an invasion by Israel?

Blaming the victim again?

The airstrikes that started the war were planned and executed by Israel.

Israel does not deny it. In fact, the Israelis have always admitted it was a preemptive strike against Egypt.

I think the only reason Israel isn't vilified for it the way Japan was for the attack on Pearl Harbor is because Israel and Egypt didn't have a treaty at the time. A reasonable argument can be made that the strikes were a continuation of the fight over the Sinai that had started and stalled in 1956. But there's nothing reasonable about blaming Egypt for it, not when Israel was trying to take land from Egypt in 1956, just like the Zionists who founded Israel took land from Palestinians in 1948.

The airstrikes didn't start the war. The Egyptian blockade started the war.

Blockades are considered acts of war even if no shots are fired. Most of the time blockades are done as means of limited war by a big power against a small power and thus the small power doesn't respond by shooting. It didn't occur to Egypt that Israel would take the offensive.

 

[steve_bank]

There should be a forum rule that agents of a foreign govt must identify themselves.

 

[Arctish]

Blaming the victim again?

The airstrikes that started the war were planned and executed by Israel.

Israel does not deny it. In fact, the Israelis have always admitted it was a preemptive strike against Egypt.

I think the only reason Israel isn't vilified for it the way Japan was for the attack on Pearl Harbor is because Israel and Egypt didn't have a treaty at the time. A reasonable argument can be made that the strikes were a continuation of the fight over the Sinai that had started and stalled in 1956. But there's nothing reasonable about blaming Egypt for it, not when Israel was trying to take land from Egypt in 1956, just like the Zionists who founded Israel took land from Palestinians in 1948.

The airstrikes didn't start the war. The Egyptian blockade started the war.

Blockades are considered acts of war even if no shots are fired. Most of the time blockades are done as means of limited war by a big power against a small power and thus the small power doesn't respond by shooting. It didn't occur to Egypt that Israel would take the offensive.

First off, Egypt did not impose a blockade on Israel. Egypt would not allow Israeli vessels in Egyptian territorial waters. Huge difference.

Second, Egypt has the right to control shipping in its territorial waters. If you think it doesn't then make your case but keep in mind its the same right Israel asserts regarding Palestinian fishing boats sailing off the shores of Israel and Gaza.

Third, Israel has imposed a blockade on Gaza, so if that's considered an act of war stop whining about the Gazans firing rockets and sailing flaming kites into Israel. It's war.

Regardless, no matter how much the Israelis disliked Egypt's decision to keep an adversary's ships out of its waters, it doesn't transform the invasion in 1956 or the preemptive airstrikes in 1973 into something other than the result of careful and deliberate Israeli decision making. Read the link I provided. It contains transcripts of the actual discussions of the Israeli political and military leaders when they chose to attack.

 

[bilby]

There should be a forum rule that agents of a foreign govt must identify themselves.

Foreign to whom? The Internet is an international technology with transnational reach. From my POV, you are a foreigner.