I will donate $100 to a charity of your choice if you respond to the facts and arguments I have made in those posts, and email you a receipt. But I'm confident that is not going to happen.
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The Problem of Evil (split from is atheism unappealing)
- Thread starter Learner
- Start date
T.G.G. Moogly
Traditional Atheist
I find atheism very appealing and find my religious upbringing and the things it taught very unappealing, maybe even insulting. It seemed like the more intelligent people in that first community just suffered through the theistic idiocy for the sake of community and tradition while there were certainly those who worried about dying with a sin on their soul and going to hell. Funny how even as a kid I thought those people odd for being so credulous. But that's all they knew in their small little world so it made sense. They really believed in the magic and died believing in the magic.
If atheism is unappealing it is only because of prejudice and fear, nothing else. A person takes insult because you don't think their hobby is worth the time and have different interests. I guess they feel rejected and so they lash out. There's a lot of investment in the magic so it's understandable that someone not scientifically curious or even ignorant of scientific thinking would feel threatened.
You won't answer. And your pride will not let you concede that you were wrong. Your assertion that (the Christian) "God loves us" cannot be true, as has been demonstrated clearly in this thread.
You should take some time to think about why you believe God loves you when you have no good reason to believe such a thing. I would also suggest that you think about why you believe in God. Are you interested in the truth, or are you happy living your life in a bubble of false comfort created by your faith? I would choose truth every time.
T.G.G. Moogly
Traditional Atheist
The late Desmond Tutu is on record as saying he wants to have a conversation with god about some of his god's behavior. The good bishop has some questions because on the face of it some of those actions just don't express love. And why not? Wouldn't any of us answer a child's similar questions similarly? Should we punish the child for his ignorance and inexperience as biblegod apparently punishes?
So Tutu takes a middle road, not the same road someone like Learner takes by inventing groveling and embarrassing apologetics. Who would want to spend eternity with a cruel master anyway?
BTW, if biblegod worships itself it's one sick god. If it doesn't worship itself it's atheist. The only out is that it worships something greater, and of course that would throw all of christian religion and theology out the window.
So Tutu takes a middle road, not the same road someone like Learner takes by inventing groveling and embarrassing apologetics. Who would want to spend eternity with a cruel master anyway?
BTW, if biblegod worships itself it's one sick god. If it doesn't worship itself it's atheist. The only out is that it worships something greater, and of course that would throw all of christian religion and theology out the window.
Learner
Veteran Member
Hmm, it seems my persona "shifts" according to your (plural) taste of responses, e.g. the snooty theist-know-it-all responses, arrogantly suggests the atheists keep getting the biblical contexts wrong, again... making it up as they go along etc., & etc..
Learner
Veteran Member
I won't answer again? Get your check book out!
Jesting aside, I was busy caught up as a volunteer for our local Queen's Jubilee event; I was physicaly and mentaly tired. I've got to read each link and post a response invidually of course.
NA
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Learner
Veteran Member
Genesis 6:3,5-7,11
3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.5And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
11The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
This doesn't look indiscriminately. As we see from the verses, which is still Genesis 6 you got your verse from, God had a reason.
Also looking at the verses above. God is not absent here, reminding me, when I previously mentioned in another post, this is satans's world now etc, . But God was present (Gen 6:3 My spirit will not always strive with man...) and directly interacted with humans back then.
Not the way you do, obviously.
The verse you highlight is 'The Judgment on the Philistines' who were against the Israelites and God. The previous Jeremiah 46 is a judgement of Egypt. As throughout the bible, it well illustrates that God ONLY reacts against those who are directly against Him, trying to harm His people the Israelites.
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Learner
Veteran Member
I don't understand how you got to this very odd notion. Are you saying Desmond Tutu was "doubting" God? Middle of the road, iffy, not sure of his God making necessary descisions? If a believer can't be sure of God then he's not a believer of (that) God.
That's a thought..... but then there's the thought...
... it just ain't happening.
Jimmy Higgins
Contributor
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2001
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- Basic Beliefs
- Calvinistic Atheist
* any and all references to Satan being a force of any consideration not found anywhere in the Tanakh, forget within the actual context of the events in Genesis
There isn't even the slightest hint that Satan is involved in the Narrative of the Garden until roughly 600 to 800 years after the narrative was written.
Killing every single human on the planet is genocide. It is by definition, also indiscriminate. It kills the young and the old, the healthy and the infirm, the good and the bad. It is not just, it is an act of violence and murder on a scale so vast that our minds have a hard time understanding the scope of evil of God's actions.
But here you are defending genocide. You are here defending a god who has allegedly killed all his children in a murderous rage, children that you claim God loves. Is that how you love your children, you kill them all?
T.G.G. Moogly
Traditional Atheist
Christians ask forgiveness and they're off the hook for everything. Their religion is a license to do anything and be forgiven. In biblegod's case after he murdered everyone he must have asked himself for forgiveness. Good stuff.
I think he is saying that Tutu is not as craven and intellectually bankrupt as some Christians appear to be. Tutu is not the kind of Christian who speaks up to defend the slaughter of hundreds of millions of people as a necessary and justified act, for example. Rather, Tutu speaks up as these acts being questionable - hence asking God questions about why he acts like an asshole.
Moogly's post is quite clear, and I don't understand how someone could misunderstand what he said.
A necessary solution to the problem of evil is to kill everybody? A problem that was caused by God fucking up to begin with. And a problem that returned shortly after the planet was repopulated by humans again. Are you saying that your God is a fucking idiot in addition to being a genocidal tyrant?
You really should step back and shut up so people don't get the wrong idea about what you stand for. Or else you will be telling us how good life was for the slaves, and that women should obey men and stay home to bear their babies. Oh wait, never mind.
Yeah. That must be it
jab
Veteran Member
the Bible doesn't call it an apple, and it's not just evil that came into world, but suffering, as decided upon by God as punishment for eating the wrong food and wanting to know too much--the punishment including pain in childbirth, and physical death, not just to Eve and Adam, but to all subsequent women and men....
How can you say that? It is so obvious that there is evil in the world because Adam and Eve ate that fucking apple... the Bible says so. How else could evil be explained?
steve_bank
Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Evil exist in our selves IOW our brains. It can be passed from person to person, as with racism. There are people who personify evil. Putin. Hitler, and Trump.(Responding in no particular order)
Good questions. For the sake of decent discussion, heres my view from a theistic perspective. God created systems i.e. the universe is automatic. or automated, hence obviously, we have cycles and seasons, where we, with a bit of summing up from observation, get a good fair amount of predictability from repeatable natural processes observed; setting our charts and tables by. "He made the moon to mark the seasons...( btw also tells us, the moon is not a god.
God is not at the helm to prevent these things anymore, in a manner of speaking,e.g., 'No God' is what people wished for, That's not until that is... the return of Christ. Death is harsh, yes, and death is inevitable as the bible is written : 'it is appointed for man to die once...Heb 2:7" (some aspects to this, as to why the flesh has to die; it maybe tainted (genetically) ) we will see and experience tribulation as Jesus says. It's not comforting I know, during those periods. The anwsers is tough one, yes of course. I say simply (the pay-grade I'm limited to), He loves us because we still exist, even when we turn our backs on Him. He gives life and He ressurects the dead.
God not in charge? Pure rationalization of reality. Before modern psychology evil as a spirit was a way of grappling with reality. I am a good person, why did a bad thing happen to me? It is something 'out there'. Wear a crucifix and it will ward off evil.
Job is a great story. A righteous guy on whom wiout warning crap rains down in buckets. Is it Ecclesiastes where a man is plowig a fied wndering why he has to toil while birds just fly around eating what nature provides? Today I'd say he's got the blues.
One way to look at the OT is as commentray on the humaN CONDITION.
In 18th century America Christians thought if your house or barn was hit by lightning it was a sign form ;above;, you did something wrong.
When in recorded history has there not been trials, tribulations and the like?
Cheerful Charlie
Contributor
In 2005, during an Earth quake, near Indonesia, the sea floor moved 60 feet that created that deadly tsunami. If I was God, I would have had several earthquakes over a few weeks so there would not have been a massive and deadly tsunami. My fellow atheists, if you were an omnipotent God, would you not have done the same? I know my fellow atheists would agree, had they been omnipotent and loving God, that tsunami would not have happened. It would seem then we are morally better than
God.
We must now ask the question, why should we not take this to indicate that God, supposedly loving, compassionate, merciful, an omnipotent does not exist? Is a myth, a superstition? And we atheists should look at all the other cruelties and atrocities of God in the Bible, and ask the question, if you were God would you do that? And ask our theist friends that little question, again and again until they start thinking clearly.
God.
We must now ask the question, why should we not take this to indicate that God, supposedly loving, compassionate, merciful, an omnipotent does not exist? Is a myth, a superstition? And we atheists should look at all the other cruelties and atrocities of God in the Bible, and ask the question, if you were God would you do that? And ask our theist friends that little question, again and again until they start thinking clearly.
Learner
Veteran Member
You are in error!
Ezekiel 28: 11 - 19; the scripture within the Tanakh, shown below says otherwise! (there are a few more verses but these will suffice)
11 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
Quite a few Christians today are aware of these verses indicating the king of Tyre is also satan! As in the days of Job, the concept is.. satan was roaming freely whilst perhaps creating several kingdoms, throughout mans history, (then these civilisations keep getting destroyed and vanish).
Just a mention aside. I've heard of suggestions that Zeus, Jupitor & Odin/Thor for example, could be alternative names for satan like that of the King of Tyre - and like satan they were associated with thiunder ( thunder gods etc.). As curiously interesting I find this, (not being an area, I have time to look into), I won't be debating the notion of course.
(Sorry for not keeping up with posts)
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Cheerful Charlie
Contributor
Back to my quesions. If Satan, devils, and cute lil imps cause so much evil, why does God not banish them from planet Earth? If I was was God, omnipotent and omnibenevolent, I would have done that from the beginning. I bet if you took a poll here, my fellow atheists would agree, that is what they would do if they were God. So either this God critter is not omnipotent, omnibenevolent, loving, merciful and compassionate as claimed, or does not even exist.
Learner
Veteran Member
A sermon caught my attention once. The pastor or preacher said, "we can't blame satan for everything we do wrong". He may entice you with seemingly wonderful things but it is you who decides whether or not to refrain and resist the temptation, when you know and you're quite aware that it's not a good idea.
What is also interesting - there is in scripture, a verse which mentions God saying that "we must NOT make mockery, even of satan when you resist his temptations.
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Cheerful Charlie
Contributor
Back to the main question. Why does the perfect, moral omnipotent God allow Satan and devils on Earth to do evil? If I was God I would not. I seem to be better than God as far as my goodness goes. But then, at least I exist.
Learner
Veteran Member
Maybe it's a necessity to allow their existence to continue, so they can reveal themselves 'of their own accord' like signing a declaration, declaring where they stand with God, by their own wills, as it is with humans to choose the path to walk on. The question really for me is: Who would want to live with Jesus as their King? I have come across people who detest the idea.
Curiously, what thing would you do? Would you not allow those evil entities to have existed at all?
Now that you've slipped out of the hypothetical, posing a slightly different angle...
Since God doesn't exist to you. What could you do (even in collaboration with many) in todays world as human? What type of Justice would you (generally anyone) have for the murderers who killed the innocent. How would you apply justice to whole variety of evil things? Would you be capable of stopping wars, hunger and poverty? Or rather... what has been done to resolve all of the above in the advanced modern world? Humans know better, and can do better than the hypothetical God would have, apparently.
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