The problem with admitting the top 10% of students to the university

[Loren Pechtel]

https://foxbaltimore.com/news/proje...-41-of-high-school-students-earn-below-10-gpa

And I don't think this is a case of a bad school, but rather schools with a population of students who don't care about learning.

 

[laughing dog]

The OP title is a non-sequitur. There is absolutely nothing about the learning or quality of the students in the top 10%.

In addition, the OP article is about the Baltimore public high schools as a group, so the OP observation comment that focuses on a bad school is also a non-sequitur.

But the data about the GPA's of Baltimore public high school students is truly appalling.

 

[Rhea]

Nothing in your article says anything about the education of the top 10% in that school.

Are you just assuming the behavior of the bottom half is the same as the top 10%? Why would you do that?

The bottom half of that school needs serious attention! Those kids are not being given what they need.
But the top 10% may be doing everything they can with the system and, for example, if they are the only ones showing up to class, they may be getting exactly what they need to succeed at college. You don't know any different.

 

[ZiprHead]

Nothing in your article says anything about the education of the top 10% in that school.

Are you just assuming the behavior of the bottom half is the same as the top 10%? Why would you do that?

The bottom half of that school needs serious attention! Those kids are not being given what they need.
But the top 10% may be doing everything they can with the system and, for example, if they are the only ones showing up to class, they may be getting exactly what they need to succeed at college. You don't know any different.

I think what he's saying is that colleges that accept the top ten percent of a school student body can still get inferior students.

 

[Rhea]

Nothing in your article says anything about the education of the top 10% in that school.

Are you just assuming the behavior of the bottom half is the same as the top 10%? Why would you do that?

The bottom half of that school needs serious attention! Those kids are not being given what they need.
But the top 10% may be doing everything they can with the system and, for example, if they are the only ones showing up to class, they may be getting exactly what they need to succeed at college. You don't know any different.

I think what he's saying is that colleges that accept the top ten percent of a school student body can still get inferior students.

I agree that he is claiming that, but his artile does not support his theory. He has not shown any information that demonstrates that the top 10% of a school with a terrible bottom half, are also terrible.


I agree completely that there are many schools that need significant change and help. (My personal list includes making the schools SMALLER and increasing the teacher:student ratio, as well as comunity aids to help step in where families cannot).

But it sounds like he is proposing the solution that if the bottom half of the school is terrible, you can use this to keep the top 10% out of college programs. Without any data on how the top 10% is performing.

 

[ZiprHead]

Is the article cited in the op a one of thing due to the covid pandemic and school disruption or something else?

 

[Politesse]

Is the article cited in the op a one of thing due to the covid pandemic and school disruption or something else?

Absolutely. Didn't you read it? The article is not long.

 

[Toni]

https://foxbaltimore.com/news/proje...-41-of-high-school-students-earn-below-10-gpa

And I don't think this is a case of a bad school, but rather schools with a population of students who don't care about learning.

Why do you think that students don’t care about learning?

One of the key characteristics of children is that they are hungry to learn. What makes these students different?

 

[Toni]

Nothing in your article says anything about the education of the top 10% in that school.

Are you just assuming the behavior of the bottom half is the same as the top 10%? Why would you do that?

The bottom half of that school needs serious attention! Those kids are not being given what they need.
But the top 10% may be doing everything they can with the system and, for example, if they are the only ones showing up to class, they may be getting exactly what they need to succeed at college. You don't know any different.

I think what he's saying is that colleges that accept the top ten percent of a school student body can still get inferior students.

I agree that he is claiming that, but his artile does not support his theory. He has not shown any information that demonstrates that the top 10% of a school with a terrible bottom half, are also terrible.


I agree completely that there are many schools that need significant change and help. (My personal list includes making the schools SMALLER and increasing the teacher:student ratio, as well as comunity aids to help step in where families cannot).

But it sounds like he is proposing the solution that if the bottom half of the school is terrible, you can use this to keep the top 10% out of college programs. Without any data on how the top 10% is performing.

I agree with making schools smaller and increasing the teacher/student ration so much!

 

[laughing dog]

First, the school closures and elearning may be a large contributing factor to these results.

Second, one would need to define "success" and then have data about how students admitted to university because they were in the top 10% meet that definition. The OP has no definition of "success". In fact, it does not even define what it means by "problem". And it has no data specific to the 10%ers at university.

Third, I don't think it is a coincidence that the OP about a predominantly black school district observes that a negative outcome focuses on blaming the population which ironically, that would violate many of the anti-CRT teaching school laws enacted in some states.

As a model of poor scholarship and learning, the OP is a success. Otherwise, it is a failure.

 

[TV and credit cards]

They mention the failure rate went from 24% to 41% during the pandemic. They do not address the reasons why. Hungry to learn? I would think too hungry to learn. And all the rest of the obstacles poorer students may face, the observations of their environment they make, and the conclusions they draw. If we cannot address the 16 hours a day and the weekends students are not in school, poorer students will always receive a poorer education.

Well, they do mention the large sums of money spent by the school system. They have a wannabe politician there to readily speak to the failure of incumbent politicians. That's about it. Me thinks the only message is, look how taxpayer dollars are wasted. Oh how utterly Fox of them.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

https://foxbaltimore.com/news/proje...-41-of-high-school-students-earn-below-10-gpa

And I don't think this is a case of a bad school, but rather schools with a population of students who don't care about learning.

Why do you think that students don’t care about learning?

One of the key characteristics of children is that they are hungry to learn. What makes these students different?

I doubt Loren actually read the article.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Nothing in your article says anything about the education of the top 10% in that school.

Are you just assuming the behavior of the bottom half is the same as the top 10%? Why would you do that?

The bottom half of that school needs serious attention! Those kids are not being given what they need.
But the top 10% may be doing everything they can with the system and, for example, if they are the only ones showing up to class, they may be getting exactly what they need to succeed at college. You don't know any different.

I think what he's saying is that colleges that accept the top ten percent of a school student body can still get inferior students.

Exactly. I'm showing that top 10% doesn't prove much.

 

[laughing dog]

Nothing in your article says anything about the education of the top 10% in that school.

Are you just assuming the behavior of the bottom half is the same as the top 10%? Why would you do that?

The bottom half of that school needs serious attention! Those kids are not being given what they need.
But the top 10% may be doing everything they can with the system and, for example, if they are the only ones showing up to class, they may be getting exactly what they need to succeed at college. You don't know any different.

I think what he's saying is that colleges that accept the top ten percent of a school student body can still get inferior students.

Exactly. I'm showing that top 10% doesn't prove much.

No, you think you are showing that. But you have not presented any evidence on point.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

https://foxbaltimore.com/news/proje...-41-of-high-school-students-earn-below-10-gpa

And I don't think this is a case of a bad school, but rather schools with a population of students who don't care about learning.

Why do you think that students don’t care about learning?

One of the key characteristics of children is that they are hungry to learn. What makes these students different?

But not necessarily what's being taught in school.

 

[Rhea]

Nothing in your article says anything about the education of the top 10% in that school.

Are you just assuming the behavior of the bottom half is the same as the top 10%? Why would you do that?

The bottom half of that school needs serious attention! Those kids are not being given what they need.
But the top 10% may be doing everything they can with the system and, for example, if they are the only ones showing up to class, they may be getting exactly what they need to succeed at college. You don't know any different.

I think what he's saying is that colleges that accept the top ten percent of a school student body can still get inferior students.

Exactly. I'm showing that top 10% doesn't prove much.

You didn’t show that.

What piece of data in that article do you think showed anything about the top 10% in that school?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Exactly. I'm showing that top 10% doesn't prove much.

You didn’t show that.

What piece of data in that article do you think showed anything about the top 10% in that school?

Student performance is going to be pretty much a bell curve. If the middle of the curve is that low, the top 10% is also pretty darn low.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Man, LP is pretty smart, being able to draw a bell curve using a single data point!

 

[laughing dog]

Exactly. I'm showing that top 10% doesn't prove much.

You didn’t show that.

What piece of data in that article do you think showed anything about the top 10% in that school?

Student performance is going to be pretty much a bell curve. If the middle of the curve is that low, the top 10% is also pretty darn low.

The "performance" is for the pandemic not for 4 years. There is no reason to expect the mean or the standard deviation to be the same as for the non-pandemic years. In fact, given the low mean value, it is rather doubtful that the standard deviation is unchanged and that the results are normally distributed. Hence, your inferences about the curve are not reasonable.

Moreover, you have not
1) defined what conceptual "problem" is caused by the 10% admission policy,
2) presented any evidence documenting the "problem" caused by the 10% admission policy, or
3) made a coherent argument why an outlier case (one year in the Baltimore school system during a pandemic induced massive change in instruction) is representative sample for all schools and states across the nation.

All of which leads to the conclusion that your observation is driven by misperception and not by reason and reality.

 

[Trausti]

Exactly. I'm showing that top 10% doesn't prove much.

You didn’t show that.

What piece of data in that article do you think showed anything about the top 10% in that school?

Student performance is going to be pretty much a bell curve. If the middle of the curve is that low, the top 10% is also pretty darn low.

This assumes the top 10% of such a low performing school actually want to go to college. Probably not.