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The relationship between Science and Philosophy

... I will say little more than that falsifying Alan Guth's Inflation is not possible.

That few if any claims by BB cosmologists are falsifiable has not slowed their claim making, and it is for this reason that I say they have rejected falsification.
That isn't a valid inference. To correctly deduce that they have rejected falsification you would also need the premise that BB cosmologists agree with you that inflation and their other claims are not falsifiable. For all you know, they might accept falsification and simply be in error about whether inflation is falsifiable. Or, for that matter, they might possibly know of a way to falsify inflation that you are unfamiliar with.
 
... I will say little more than that falsifying Alan Guth's Inflation is not possible.

That few if any claims by BB cosmologists are falsifiable has not slowed their claim making, and it is for this reason that I say they have rejected falsification.
That isn't a valid inference. To correctly deduce that they have rejected falsification you would also need the premise that BB cosmologists agree with you that inflation and their other claims are not falsifiable. For all you know, they might accept falsification and simply be in error about whether inflation is falsifiable. Or, for that matter, they might possibly know of a way to falsify inflation that you are unfamiliar with.

Or they may simply ignore the "necessity" of falsification, and still have a very good theory which can be modified if necessary, when necessary, and still be defined as scientific. Even Popper agreed that

These frequently quoted passages are only a very small part of what Popper wrote on the issue of evolution, however, and give the wrong impression that he mainly discussed questions of its falsifiability. Popper never invented this criterion to give justifiable use of words like science. In fact, Popper says at the beginning of Logic of Scientific Discovery that it is not his aim to define science, and that science can in fact be defined quite arbitrarily.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Popper

So maybe Tom in Napa,s dogmatic views are not the last word on the definition of what is and what is not science
 
The reciprocal relationship of epistemology and science is of noteworthy kind. They are dependent upon each other. Epistemology without contact with science becomes an empty scheme. Science without epistemology is—insofar as it is thinkable at all—primitive and muddled.- A. Einstein
 
To correctly deduce that they have rejected falsification....

Bomb#20, I'm not deducing that they have rejected falsification; I'm inducing it from their history of refusing to do as other scientists do. In short their product is not science.

If they depend on the hypothesis for their income, I understand their enthusiasm.
 
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To correctly deduce that they have rejected falsification....

Bomb#20, I'm not deducing that they have rejected falsification; I'm inducing it from their history of refusing to do as other scientists do. In short their product is not science.

If they depend on the hypothesis for their income, I understand their enthusiasm.

Do you have a current example of this?
 
To correctly deduce that they have rejected falsification....

Bomb#20, I'm not deducing that they have rejected falsification; I'm inducing it from their history of refusing to do as other scientists do. In short their product is not science.

I thought there were a great many theories in physics that weren't falsifiable, such as the idea of superstrings.

I'm happy with the idea that falsification is important, I'm just trying to work out why anything that isn't falsifiable suddenly becomes not science. Because there are a great many activities that scientists do that aren't falsifiable, including most of the claimed overlap between science and philosophy.
 
Bomb#20, I'm not deducing that they have rejected falsification; I'm inducing it from their history of refusing to do as other scientists do. In short their product is not science.
Well then, if your reasoning is inductive, can you quote any of these refusals? Or are you inducing your conclusion from "observations" you have not actually observed -- from postulated refusal events that you are inferring deductively from your opinion that their product is not science?
 
DBT: Do you have a current example of this?
A current example of their enthusiasm, or of their rejecting falsification?

Togo: I'm just trying to work out why anything that isn't falsifiable suddenly becomes not science.
State a hypothesis about the claimed overlap between science and philosophy and you will understand.

Bomb#20: Well then, if your reasoning is inductive, can you quote any of these refusals? Or are you inducing your conclusion from "observations" you have not actually observed -- from postulated refusal events that you are inferring deductively from your opinion that their product is not science?
In all those words I read that you don't know BB history. I do, and I feel no obligation to teach you that history.
 
DBT from the land down under, clicking on your screen name reveals no discussion begun by you about cosmology.

If replying to your query to your satisfaction requires me to explain the Big Bang model, I will say little more than that falsifying Alan Guth's Inflation is not possible.

That few if any claims by BB cosmologists are falsifiable has not slowed their claim making, and it is for this reason that I say they have rejected falsification.
You're a bit harsh. Theirs are just inflated claims from inflated egos projecting themselves on the universe. :p
EB
 
Maybe those who think inflation theory is falsifiable could explain how it is.

Or maybe it's just good enough to be able to conceive how a future theory could become falsifiable. These are still early days.
EB
 
Or maybe it's just good enough to be able to conceive how a future theory could become falsifiable.

Nice insight, Speakpigeon.
Big Bangers have been conceiving stuff for decades; conceiving a falsifiable future theory couldn't have taken but a few moments.
 
Togo: I'm just trying to work out why anything that isn't falsifiable suddenly becomes not science.
State a hypothesis about the claimed overlap between science and philosophy and you will understand.

Not seeing where this is going, but ok.

Philosophy is the formal study of reasoning.
Science is a method of reasoning and experimentation involving emperical verification of hypotheses.
Hypothesis: Science involves various kind of reasoning around emperical testing, and thus overlaps with philosophy.

... No, still not seeing how anything that isn't falsifiable suddenly becomes not-science. Looks like your statement has been falsified.;) Can I trouble you for an explanation now?
 
Or maybe it's just good enough to be able to conceive how a future theory could become falsifiable.

Nice insight, Speakpigeon.
Big Bangers have been conceiving stuff for decades; conceiving a falsifiable future theory couldn't have taken but a few moments.

I'm struggling here. If a theory includes everything as some string theory purports to do, then everything, anything, is candidate to falsify. Seems to me the stringers are building apparatus capable of conducting tests with anything which might be used to validate their theories. For instance the CERN Large Hadron Collider capable of accelerating particles of sufficient energy was required to validate Higgs Boson. No overlap philosophy and science required.
 
Science is an inductive discipline that uses evidence to verify its conclusions by referencing the scientific method
Only testable hypotheses are scientific because non testable ones cannot be verified even if their premises are true
Science and philosophy are regarded as completely different disciplines but science is actually a branch of philosophy
The default position in science is falsifiability and so if a hypothesis is true then it still has to be subject to it potentially
Science does not investigate reality and has precisely nothing to say about it as that is a question pertaining to philosophy
What science does investigate and only investigates is observable phenomena occurring within the Universe and nothing else
 
It may not be any different at all but it is just that science has nothing to say on it
As all it does is investigate what it observes but does not say what it is other than to
describe the physical property of that particular phenomena. As science only answers
how questions not why questions. As for those one has to reference philosophy instead
 
I guess one has to make the distinction between science and scientific theories. Scientific theories are part of science. Science also includes experimentation. A theory can be deemed scientific if it explains all past observations and is conceivably falsifiable. Falsification always requires at least one observation (conceivably even past observations if the author of the theory is an incompetent scientist). There are no moral obligation, gentlemen's agreement, industry standard, government regulation or UN resolution which specify when exactly an experiment should be conducted to try and falsify a theory. It's all done on a piecemeal voluntary basis so it is at least conceivable that a scientific theory will never be tested, even therefore false ones. So, personally, I wouldn't give a Nobel Prize to the inventor of a theory or to an experimentator who merely "confirmed" a theory. They are already paid to do their jobs. Instead, Nobels should go to experimentators who successfully show that a theory previously "confirmed" and widely accepted by scientists is false, like Newton's universal theory of gravitation. Yet, even that is difficult. Astronomers eventually decided that the orbit of Mercury contradicted Newton but essentially because Einstein came up with an alternative they could regard as better than Newton's theory. So in effect, scientists don't seem to be concerned with truth but with the apparent prediction power of the theory and this of course makes sense if we remember that scientists are mere human beings, i.e. a by-product of evolution. The realisation that the speed of stars in galaxies exceeds what Newton's or Einstein's theory of gravitation predict led scientists to postulate the existence of dark matter without any other evidence of it so far, and specific detectors have failed to detect it. What would happen if none is ever found anywhere? When should it be decided that there is no dark matter? I don't think scientists have worked out any clear criteria but they will no doubt come to a particular view depending on future events. However, there is possibly a practical limit to the power of scientific experimentation, be it money or lack of imagination. So the theory that there is a distribution of dark matter around galaxies explaining observations of the orbital speed of stars may conceivably never be properly tested, let alone "confirmed". Which leads to the question of what it means exactly for the theory of the existence of dark matter to be regarded as falsifiable even in the absence any proper experiments to test it. Is it not just how scientists feel about the theory given a number of experiments? Is it not just in the end gut feeling?
EB
 
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