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The relationship between Science and Philosophy

I guess one has to make the distinction between science and scientific theories. Scientific theories are part of science. Science also includes experimentation. A theory can be deemed scientific if it explains all past observations and is conceivably falsifiable. Falsification always requires at least one observation (conceivably even past observations if the author of the theory is an incompetent scientist). There are no moral obligation, gentlemen's agreement, industry standard, government regulation or UN resolution which specify when exactly an experiment should be conducted to try and falsify a theory. It's all done on a piecemeal voluntary basis so it is at least conceivable that a scientific theory will never be tested, even therefore false ones. So, personally, I wouldn't give a Nobel Prize to the inventor of a theory or to an experimentator who merely "confirmed" a theory. They are already paid to do their jobs. Instead, Nobels should go to experimentators who successfully show that a theory previously "confirmed" and widely accepted by scientists is false, like Newton's universal theory of gravitation. Yet, even that is difficult. Astronomers eventually decided that the orbit of Mercury contradicted Newton but essentially because Einstein came up with an alternative they could regard as better than Newton's theory. So in effect, scientists don't seem to be concerned with truth but with the apparent prediction power of the theory and this of course makes sense if we remember that scientists are mere human beings, i.e. a by-product of evolution. The realisation that the speed of stars in galaxies exceeds what Newton's or Einstein's theory of gravitation predict led scientists to postulate the existence of dark matter without any other evidence of it so far, and specific detectors have failed to detect it. What would happen if none is ever found anywhere? When should it be decided that there is no dark matter? I don't think scientists have worked out any clear criteria but they will no doubt come to a particular view depending on future events. However, there is possibly a practical limit to the power of scientific experimentation, be it money or lack of imagination. So the theory that there is a distribution of dark matter around galaxies explaining observations of the orbital speed of stars may conceivably never be properly tested, let alone "confirmed". Which leads to the question of what it means exactly for the theory of the existence of dark matter to be regarded as falsifiable even in the absence any proper experiments to test it. Is it not just how scientists feel about the theory given a number of experiments? Is it not just in the end gut feeling?
EB

Poor scientists! As this and other posts have shown, or hinted, they get it all wrong every time they "invent" a new theory, new "dark" matter and "dark" energy, can't falsify their guesses , can't get things rights. It's a wonder they can tell their black holes from their elbows. Meantime the Philosophers have everything logically thought out and, I suppose, correct.

So how does this sort of thing happen, without a philosopher in sight? http://dawnblog.jpl.nasa.gov/2014/11/28/dawn-journal-november-28/



and have the philosophers ever given us even a paper plane that flies?

 
Philosophers have everything logically thought out and, I suppose, correct.

4321lynx, I once accepted that philosophers had everything logically thought out. Then someone pointed out that no matter where philosophers start their questioning, they stop when they get to where they are.

So now I'm wondering if they'll ever have it all thought out.
 
Philosophers have everything logically thought out and, I suppose, correct.

4321lynx, I once accepted that philosophers had everything logically thought out. Then someone pointed out that no matter where philosophers start their questioning, they stop when they get to where they are.

So now I'm wondering if they'll ever have it all thought out.

Godel figured out a complete system of logical thought.
 
4321lynx, I once accepted that philosophers had everything logically thought out. Then someone pointed out that no matter where philosophers start their questioning, they stop when they get to where they are.

So now I'm wondering if they'll ever have it all thought out.

Godel figured out a complete system of logical thought.

Really?

I thought Godel figured out that we couldn't figure out enough to complete a model. We're short a few properties.
 
In science it is necessary to have a hypothesis as a working model for investigating any phenomena which
is not fully understood simply as a foundational basis up on which to operate from. Long as the hypothesis
can be tested then it is sound. If it subsequently is demonstrated to be invalid by falsification then another
hypothesis is simply proposed instead. And that process can be subject to potential revision any time since
any theory on which a hypothesis is based is only as good as the knowledge base it is formulated upon. So
if new knowledge is acquired which is relevant to that theory then it too is added to it. The falsification of a
hypothesis is not actually a retrograde step as the process of elimination is one in which science progresses
to a greater understanding of the particular phenomena being investigated as it reduces the margin of error
 
Philosophers have everything logically thought out and, I suppose, correct.

4321lynx, I once accepted that philosophers had everything logically thought out. Then someone pointed out that no matter where philosophers start their questioning, they stop when they get to where they are.

So now I'm wondering if they'll ever have it all thought out.

Thought alone can lead to self deception, Geocentric beliefs, heavier objects fall faster, etc. Reason alone died with Descartes. The scientific method is based on reality. Understanding objective reality requires empirical observation and testing combined with reason. The latter being based on the former. Holding a belief or having an idea is not enough, as one has to provide testable hypotheses that are both verifiable and falsifiable.

Understanding objective reality requires empirical observation and testing combined with reason. The latter being based on the former. Holding a belief or having an idea is not enough, as one has to provide testable hypotheses that are both verifiable and falsifiable.
 
Science does not investigate reality but observable phenomena
occurring within this Universe. And has precisely nothing to say
about reality as that is beyond its remit and so is a question for
philosophy. Reality may be used and is as a description of what
is investigated though that is a lay term and not a scientific one
 
Science does not investigate reality but observable phenomena
occurring within this Universe.

Observable phenomena within this universe is defined as reality. In fact the only form of reality that can be observed experienced and investigated. Subjective experience being an aspect or subset of physical phenomena.


And has precisely nothing to say
about reality as that is beyond its remit and so is a question for
philosophy. Reality may be used and is as a description of what
is investigated though that is a lay term and not a scientific one

As it happens to be science that investigates our only known form of reality: matter/energy and its interactions and relationships, it is science that is best placed to investigate and understand reality. This has been proven by scientific progress. Philosophy alone did not provide us with an accurate understanding of the nature of the physical world...the physical world being 'reality.'
 
Which physical world are you referring to now for there is more than one
And the one that we inhabit is not any more real than the one we do not
And this is why one should avoid using a word such as reality in a purely
scientific context as it is not precise so should only be used as a lay term
 
Which physical world are you referring to now for there is more than one

If the physical world is defined as the Universe and all it contains, galaxies, stars, planets, etc, how is there more than one physical world?

And the one that we inhabit is not any more real than the one we do not
And this is why one should avoid using a word such as reality in a purely
scientific context as it is not precise so should only be used as a lay term

I don't know what you mean when you say ''the one that we inhabit is not any more real than the one we do not,'' despite having read it several times.

When you say 'world' do you mean it in the sense of ''the world of sport'' or ''the world of finance?''
 
It is may be more accurate to say that there are points within the spectrum of perceived reality which
cannot be accessed rather than there are physical worlds which are entirely separate from each other
Since the world we inhabit is conditional on the other one existing for if it did not then this one would
not neither. And if we inhabited the other world instead of this one then the laws of physics would be
significantly different. And that is but merely two points within the spectrum of perceived reality that
we know of. There could easily be more but they would not necessarily exist in the same time frame
 
It is may be more accurate to say that there are points within the spectrum of perceived reality which
cannot be accessed rather than there are physical worlds which are entirely separate from each other
Since the world we inhabit is conditional on the other one existing for if it did not then this one would
not neither. And if we inhabited the other world instead of this one then the laws of physics would be
significantly different. And that is but merely two points within the spectrum of perceived reality that
we know of. There could easily be more but they would not necessarily exist in the same time frame

I don't know what you're referring to when you say 'other world.' Do you mean M theory? Our world as a 3-dimensional brane that exists with many others? Or do you mean something else?
 
I guess one has to make the distinction between science and scientific theories. Scientific theories are part of science. Science also includes experimentation. A theory can be deemed scientific if it explains all past observations and is conceivably falsifiable. Falsification always requires at least one observation (conceivably even past observations if the author of the theory is an incompetent scientist). There are no moral obligation, gentlemen's agreement, industry standard, government regulation or UN resolution which specify when exactly an experiment should be conducted to try and falsify a theory. It's all done on a piecemeal voluntary basis so it is at least conceivable that a scientific theory will never be tested, even therefore false ones. So, personally, I wouldn't give a Nobel Prize to the inventor of a theory or to an experimentator who merely "confirmed" a theory. They are already paid to do their jobs. Instead, Nobels should go to experimentators who successfully show that a theory previously "confirmed" and widely accepted by scientists is false, like Newton's universal theory of gravitation. Yet, even that is difficult. Astronomers eventually decided that the orbit of Mercury contradicted Newton but essentially because Einstein came up with an alternative they could regard as better than Newton's theory. So in effect, scientists don't seem to be concerned with truth but with the apparent prediction power of the theory and this of course makes sense if we remember that scientists are mere human beings, i.e. a by-product of evolution. The realisation that the speed of stars in galaxies exceeds what Newton's or Einstein's theory of gravitation predict led scientists to postulate the existence of dark matter without any other evidence of it so far, and specific detectors have failed to detect it. What would happen if none is ever found anywhere? When should it be decided that there is no dark matter? I don't think scientists have worked out any clear criteria but they will no doubt come to a particular view depending on future events. However, there is possibly a practical limit to the power of scientific experimentation, be it money or lack of imagination. So the theory that there is a distribution of dark matter around galaxies explaining observations of the orbital speed of stars may conceivably never be properly tested, let alone "confirmed". Which leads to the question of what it means exactly for the theory of the existence of dark matter to be regarded as falsifiable even in the absence any proper experiments to test it. Is it not just how scientists feel about the theory given a number of experiments? Is it not just in the end gut feeling?
EB

Poor scientists! As this and other posts have shown, or hinted, they get it all wrong every time they "invent" a new theory, new "dark" matter and "dark" energy, can't falsify their guesses , can't get things rights. It's a wonder they can tell their black holes from their elbows. Meantime the Philosophers have everything logically thought out and, I suppose, correct.

So how does this sort of thing happen, without a philosopher in sight? http://dawnblog.jpl.nasa.gov/2014/11/28/dawn-journal-november-28/



and have the philosophers ever given us even a paper plane that flies?

You don't need to look for scientists for notable physical achievements in the world, which seems to be your criteria for getting things right. Ordinary people, since the first Homo sapiens, and philosophers would have to count as such in your book, seem to have been reasonably successful in this respect. And science is only a late addition to this long history of remarkable achievements. Even before Homo sapiens came around, Neanderthal hold on in a difficult environment for longer than our modern technological and scientific civilisation has done so far, if we accept it only started around 1600 AD. And we could go back in time. Apes were successful until not so long ago. Ants still are, like cockroaches and what not. Go back still further and look at bacteria and viruses! Hey, even hydrogen atoms did Ok.

I think you would need just a little bit of thinking to understand the point of view discussed in the post you commented on but that doesn't seem to be your interest in life so instead you barge in like the proverbial barbarian in a classical music concert and start bashing in every instrumentalist's head. Ah, nothing like seeing the world with your own narrow perspective. You can't possibly get it wrong!
EB
 
Poor scientists! As this and other posts have shown, or hinted, they get it all wrong every time they "invent" a new theory, new "dark" matter and "dark" energy, can't falsify their guesses , can't get things rights. It's a wonder they can tell their black holes from their elbows. Meantime the Philosophers have everything logically thought out and, I suppose, correct.

So how does this sort of thing happen, without a philosopher in sight? http://dawnblog.jpl.nasa.gov/2014/11/28/dawn-journal-november-28/



and have the philosophers ever given us even a paper plane that flies?

You don't need to look for scientists for notable physical achievements in the world, which seems to be your criteria for getting things right. Ordinary people, since the first Homo sapiens, and philosophers would have to count as such in your book, seem to have been reasonably successful in this respect. And science is only a late addition to this long history of remarkable achievements. Even before Homo sapiens came around, Neanderthal hold on in a difficult environment for longer than our modern technological and scientific civilisation has done so far, if we accept it only started around 1600 AD. And we could go back in time. Apes were successful until not so long ago. Ants still are, like cockroaches and what not. Go back still further and look at bacteria and viruses! Hey, even hydrogen atoms did Ok.

I think you would need just a little bit of thinking to understand the point of view discussed in the post you commented on but that doesn't seem to be your interest in life so instead you barge in like the proverbial barbarian in a classical music concert and start bashing in every instrumentalist's head. Ah, nothing like seeing the world with your own narrow perspective. You can't possibly get it wrong!
EB

:hysterical::laughing-smiley-014:wave2:
 
Ants still are, like cockroaches and what not. Go back still further and look at bacteria and viruses! Hey, even hydrogen atoms did Ok.

Don't forget the most complicated single entity of all: spacetime.
 
Ants still are, like cockroaches and what not. Go back still further and look at bacteria and viruses! Hey, even hydrogen atoms did Ok.
Don't forget the most complicated single entity of all: spacetime.
Actually, I deleted "time" from my shopping list... But, yes, it could be put back in. I mean, once you understand the logic of it it's straightforward.

You should come clean and tell us how you do that trick... :p
EB
 
Why is logic necessarily related to philosophy? Logic may be independent of either philosophy and science. Logical thought probably developed long before formal philosophical inquiry or scientific methods.
 
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