• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

The Religion Of Libertarianism

The lessons about Libertarianism were learned in the late 1800's in the US when the government kept it hands out of business.

Slave child labor and unsafe sweatshops.

Labor costs were nice and low.

That is Libertarian nirvana.

Hm, interesting.

So before the industrial revolution, basically everyone worked on the farm. Including the kids. Long grueling hours in rough conditions. Untermensche's nirvana. Although people were starving and poor, people were equally starving and poor.

When the industrial revolution happened, some people switched from other jobs to factory jobs. That includes both kids and adults. Suddenly the industrial revolution invented child labor.


Everyone worked on the farm _for_their_parents_ who, in large majorities, loved them. The farm worked as much as needed to feed themselves. No child was given longer hours for anything that did not profit the family. They were never working extra to make someone else's family more idle. They were working as much as necessary to feed their own.

Surely you know that?

Compare it to factory work where children working 8 hours or 18 hours pads the pockets of someone else, someone who did not need it to just remain fed. That's the exploitation.

Surely you know that?

And yes it was collectives and government that finally gave those children a rest by more fairly enforcing that "if your business depends on the torture and exploitation of workers, you don't get to have that business." Same argument that ends slavery, right? Sure the FREE MARKET supports slavery. Why not? If you can do it, then do it! Woot!

What part of Libertarianism - stopped child labor exploitation? Can you explain better?

And can you answer this question from last page:

Free market: The property owner tells the corporation "you do not have my permission to pollute my property."

Then what? Polluter says, "what are you going to do about it?"

You offer no protections from abuse of the weakest by the strongest.

That you don't see the protections I offer doesn't mean I don't offer them.


You haven't actually offered anything about this. So what is it? What happens when the landowner says (to someone? The secretary at the power company?) "you do not have my permission to pollute my property." What makes the pollution stop?
 
It was unions and the government that stopped the widespread torture of children for profit, not capitalists.

If it were up to capitalists it would still be going on.

According to you the capitalists control the government.

They do.

The world has moved far beyond the point where capitalists can torture children for profit and nobody will care.

The capitalists do not want slavery. They do not want to have to care for the slaves.

But they would love to return to the day they could torture children and get away with it.
 
I'm still waiting for Jason to answer Rhea's set of questions.
 
I'm still waiting for Jason to answer Rhea's set of questions.

I've noticed Jason doesn't really try to defend his philosophy very much. He gets involved if someone claims someone else is Libertarian and Jason feels that person doesn't qualify to Jason's standards or the conservo-libertarian thing. But the philosophy itself, not so much.
 
Everyone worked on the farm _for_their_parents_ who, in large majorities, loved them. The farm worked as much as needed to feed themselves. No child was given longer hours for anything that did not profit the family. They were never working extra to make someone else's family more idle. They were working as much as necessary to feed their own.

Surely you know that?

Compare it to factory work where children working 8 hours or 18 hours pads the pockets of someone else, someone who did not need it to just remain fed. That's the exploitation.

Surely you know that?

Absolute bollocks. Parenting advice back then encouraged cruelty to children. In England they had a practice of swapping children while they grew up. Because it was much easier to be cruel to someone else's child.

They were taught not to get too attached to their children. To talk to them as little as possible and be aloof when they do. Children of nobles typically never met their parents until adulthood (15 years old).

They thought it was good parenting.

The reason was probably for self serving reasons. There was high child mortality 30 - 50%. This behaviour lessened the pain of losing them.

But children weren't worked as hard on the farm as in the factory, because there wasn't as much to do. These were small farms.

But they thought they were doing the children a favour by working them hard. So they tried their best to do that.

Still better than the industrial cities
 
This whole business of the alleged abuse on the farm is a smokescreen.

It is a distraction from the fact that deliberate torture was widespread in the capitalist system before the government got involved.

THAT is Libertarianism.

Capitalists and the capitalist mentality has not changed.

Capitalists would love to not spend a dime on safety and chain people to work stations for 16 hours a day.

That is what they want.

What unions have given us is a little freedom from the wants of capitalists.

Union members fought and died to change the mentality of non-capitalists to reject the cruelty of capitalists.

The mentality of capitalists has not changed.

They are greedy fucks that are destroying the planet not just torturing children anymore.

The mentality of non-capitalists has to change to the degree we stop letting them destroy the planet for profit.
 
Absolute bollocks. Parenting advice back then encouraged cruelty to children. In England they had a practice of swapping children while they grew up. Because it was much easier to be cruel to someone else's child.

They were taught not to get too attached to their children. To talk to them as little as possible and be aloof when they do. Children of nobles typically never met their parents until adulthood (15 years old).

Fortunately, the fads of the upper class were not shared by the lower class. Lower classes had their problems, like alcoholism and lack of education, but that sort of bullshit was never common among the general population.

Lots of people have distorted conceptions of history, because the history books mostly focus on the upper class.
 
After the Industrial Revolution swept the West, one of the first states to pass stiff laws against the abuses of laissez faire capitalism was of all states, Prussia. The excesses of the factories so stunted the growth and physical abilities of so many citizens, the Prussian military couldn't get enough physically sound bodies to fill their armies. Prussia was the first state to ban excessive child labor, dangerous working conditions and other destructive practices. Yes, the economic Libertarianism taken to en extreme didn't pan out.
 
After the Industrial Revolution swept the West, one of the first states to pass stiff laws against the abuses of laissez faire capitalism was of all states, Prussia. The excesses of the factories so stunted the growth and physical abilities of so many citizens, the Prussian military couldn't get enough physically sound bodies to fill their armies. Prussia was the first state to ban excessive child labor, dangerous working conditions and other destructive practices. Yes, the economic Libertarianism taken to en extreme didn't pan out.
Any sources on that?

BBC - Intermediate 2 Bitesize History - The Liberal Reforms : Revision, Page 3 In 1899, Britain started a war against the Boer Republics of southern Africa. Though Britain won, the war took 3 years, with 450,000 troops against 35,000 Boer ones. It was a great embarrassment that this victory was so difficult, and many Britons decided to find out why. They discovered:
* The quality of soldiers was blamed for the poor British performance in the war.
* Men offered themselves for service during the recruitment process – there was a very high level of rejection of young men on the grounds of health.
* In some towns as many as nine out of ten recruits for the army were rejected because they were so unfit.
* It revealed a massive amount of young men were in a dreadful physical condition.
They eventually decided on such reforms as free school meals for the very poor.
 
I am not sure where I read this about Prussia, it was years and years ago when I was reading a lot of history. It is also notable that Prussia was one of the earliest examples of a modern state mandating universal literacy among it's citizens. Again not because of some fuzzy example of liberalism but because illiterate peasants make for poor soldiers and citizens. The Prussians have always had it seems, a streak of no nonsense pragmaticism.
 
I am not sure where I read this about Prussia, it was years and years ago when I was reading a lot of history. It is also notable that Prussia was one of the earliest examples of a modern state mandating universal literacy among it's citizens. Again not because of some fuzzy example of liberalism but because illiterate peasants make for poor soldiers and citizens. The Prussians have always had it seems, a streak of no nonsense pragmaticism.

Raising good soldiers is a serious, Prussian business.
 
There was also the realization in Prussia that the industrialization of Europe meant that Prussia needed skilled workers to keep up with England and France etc. Illiterate peasants are not a good fit for a modern state needing modern industry to create modern weapons. Or to compete with other nations and not became a backwater state.
 
After the Industrial Revolution swept the West, one of the first states to pass stiff laws against the abuses of laissez faire capitalism was of all states, Prussia. The excesses of the factories so stunted the growth and physical abilities of so many citizens, the Prussian military couldn't get enough physically sound bodies to fill their armies. Prussia was the first state to ban excessive child labor, dangerous working conditions and other destructive practices. Yes, the economic Libertarianism taken to en extreme didn't pan out.

That's what's so fascinating about libertarians. They keep going, "communism was tried and it doesn't work, therefore libertarianism". Libertarian economic policy has been tried at an even larger scale than communism for a longer time, with about the same results. The results are in, mixed economies are better. Which is why that's how every well functioning economy looks today.
 
There was also the realization in Prussia that the industrialization of Europe meant that Prussia needed skilled workers to keep up with England and France etc. Illiterate peasants are not a good fit for a modern state needing modern industry to create modern weapons. Or to compete with other nations and not became a backwater state.

Prussia was, just like Sweden, a bit like the tiger economies of Asia. Catchup nations. Both Prussia and Sweden went from incredibly poor agrarian countries to fully industrial in a very short time. These shifts were profound and traumatic for both countries. We went from backward to equal members of the Western community in under 50 years. That's pretty extreme. Sweden had Europe's most liberal economy during this period. Which explains why it became so socialist.
 
After the Industrial Revolution swept the West, one of the first states to pass stiff laws against the abuses of laissez-faire capitalism was of all states, Prussia. The excesses of the factories so stunted the growth and physical abilities of so many citizens, the Prussian military couldn't get enough physically sound bodies to fill their armies. Prussia was the first state to ban excessive child labor, dangerous working conditions and other destructive practices. Yes, the economic Libertarianism taken to en extreme didn't pan out.

That's what's so fascinating about libertarians. They keep going, "communism was tried and it doesn't work, therefore libertarianism". Libertarian economic policy has been tried at an even larger scale than communism for a longer time, with about the same results. The results are in, mixed economies are better. Which is why that's how every well functioning economy looks today.

They believe that the free market is the organic natural state of an economy and that government is an artificial entity developed by evil people to manipulate the economy for their own benefit. And that this has occurred in every society that has ever existed up to now without exception. And that if they just keep talking about the nirvana that is the self-regulating self-organizing free market that all of the doubters will see the light and the SRSOFM will just happen.

Totally missing that the development of government is a direct result of the development of the economy, that the two have grown up together because they need one another. That a simple economy needs a simple government while a complex economy needs a complex government to organize and to police it. This is the natural state. That their philosophy is, like Marxism, a call to go back to simpler times, to a smaller simpler government that can only happen if the economy is somehow made smaller and simpler too.

They could be ignored just because of this, but their simpleminded blind faith in the self-regulating free market causes a lot of damage in the marketplace of ideas. They are important to the neoliberals because they provide the only academic support for the delusion of a free market without government.
 
The "free market" is shorthand for millions of people making billions of transactions and trillions of decisions every day without being told what to do. Not exactly a deity really. Faith in the free market is actually faith in people.

It is as much a deity as Evolution is a religion and Darwin a prophet. The free market is the atheism of economics.

Libertarianism is the triumph of ideology over evidence, of the subjective over the objective. It has caused massive amounts of damage to the economy with its insane belief that the one area of human activity that doesn't need to be policed is the economy, off the top of my head, over the neoliberal period of the last forty years,

  • when we pushed interest rates to nearly 20% because we believed that the Fed creates inflation by printing too much money.
  • when we allowed banks to speculate in the stock market with leveraged and depositors' money.
  • when we deregulated the electrical energy market in California handing the energy companies market set prices and the ability to cause shortages to keep those prices high, reference Enron.
  • when we effectively stopped arresting employers who hired illegals, libertarian philosophy of individual freedom and open borders.
  • when we deregulated the thrifts, the savings and loan disaster.
  • when started turning the healthcare industry into a profit-seeking business instead of the way to keep people healthy.
  • when we deregulated the derivatives market.
  • when we allowed drug companies and lawyers to advertise.
  • when we allowed drug companies to sell water in small green and brown bottles as drugs at drug prices, the deregulation of alternative medicine.
  • when we declared money to be free speech, making elections easier to buy.
  • when we declared that businesses are people and therefore their executives can't be held responsible for their bad decisions.
  • when we decided that we all would be safer the more guns we have.
  • when we ran up 12 trillion dollars worth of national debt by passing tax cuts for the already wealthy because taxation is theft.
  • when we decided offshore jobs resulting in the shifting of more of the rewards from the economy from wages to profits, from the middle class to the rich, because free trade has to be good because free is good.
  • when Alan Greenspan and the Fed failed to rein in the banks pushing subprime mortgage-backed derivatives because they thought that the banks had learned to self-regulate.
  • and the biggest one of all, when we decided to ignore the overwhelming evidence of man-made climate change because the only possible solution for it involves government action.
All of these are the results of the libertarian philosophy in action.

If it makes you uncomfortable to talk about the reality of the libertarian philosophy in actual results, and I can appreciate why you wouldn't want to do this, I am fully capable of discussing the many weaknesses of the Austrian/Libertarian economic theories. For example,

  • the death of the idea of comparative advantage justification for free trade due to widespread industrialization, the ability of capital in the form of money and of ideas, intellectual property, to cross borders in fractions of seconds.
  • the obvious contradiction that you can't have freedom without limiting freedom, that I can't enjoy my freedom without someone preventing others having their freedom to rob or murder me, paradoxically, the more freedom you allow the more freedom you have to restrict.
  • that what makes capitalism so effective is that it channels an otherwise harmful trait, greed, into a very constructive result, but it requires an adult to do the channeling, which is and always has been the government.
  • that the more complex the economy is, the larger and more complex that the government must be.
  • that what kills competition in the economy faster than anything are the interests of the competitors to avoid price competition at any cost.
  • that the only theory offered for exactly how the free market would self-regulate is marginal productivity, which, in an industrial economy with effectively no long-term diminishing returns can only result in one of two things, either profitless competition or monopolies and price-fixing cartels. Neither is desirable.
  • there is no reason to believe that prices, outside of a very few commodities, are set by supply and demand, that almost all products and services are set by the producer or provider at the average cost of production plus a markup to provide a potential profit.
  • that profits are the residual left from revenues after all costs are accounted for, they aren't a cost of production that must be met, while businesses can operate indefinitely if their variable costs are covered by revenue and this is common to try to preserve the capital in the business, the failing business will not be able to expand or to innovate usually, seriously limiting their business and their longevity, another reason that businesses avoid competing on price.
  • that companies avoid at cost competing on price, noted above, and instead compete based on innovation, quality and improving productivity. Äll are desirable.
  • wages are a necessary cost of production, if wages don't rise as revenues increase or as productivity increases, profits will increase. An integral part of libertarians dedication to private ownership rights is that the business exists for the sole purpose of making profits for the owners or the pseudo-owners, the stockholders. This precludes wage increases for the workers whose productivity increased, who provided the innovations and instead rewards the non-participants, who in the case of the stockholders didn't even provide the money used to fund the change.
  • we have to separate what we need from the economy from what the economy needs to operate. For example, the capitalist economy needs profits to operate and to grow, but it can't use an excessive amount of profits to grow faster or bigger, in fact since excessive profits are made rather than used to pay a higher wage, they actually prevent the growth that would have occurred if the money was paid as higher wages, because wages make up the vast majority of the demand in the economy. Like it or not, our current economy is demand driven, the idea that capital in the form of money is a scarce resource and that if we just provide more of it we will see more growth is a stubborn artifact of an agrarian economy and the gold standard for money that should be long gone but aren't because these provide a paper-thin justification to divert ever-increasing amounts of money to profits and to the already rich, like me, thank you very much.
  • the income inequality that libertarian infused neoliberalism produces is huge amounts of debt. But not just the public debt, that until Trump and the totally Republican controlled government was the obsession of the right, but the private debt, think about student loans to now poorly supported schools or the ever-increasing medical and housing costs, also tracible to neoliberalism, means that private debt is now about 150% of GDP, or about 30 trillion dollars and growing every year. The decades-long average of private debt before the neoliberal period was 60 to 70% of GDP.
  • Private debt is much more dangerous for the economy than the public debt. Private debt makes recessions much more likely and means that it is harder and slower to recover from. The current good economy can be traced to, once again, the increase in the private debt. Not a brilliant handling of the economy by either Trump or Obama. We would have to increase wages to see sustainable, debt-free growth, that stabilizes the economy.
It won't surprise you that I have much more on these subjects but this is enough to get you started.
 
The "free market" is shorthand for millions of people making billions of transactions and trillions of decisions every day without being told what to do. Not exactly a deity really. Faith in the free market is actually faith in people.

It is as much a deity as Evolution is a religion and Darwin a prophet. The free market is the atheism of economics.

Libertarianism is the triumph of ideology over evidence, of the subjective over the objective. It has caused massive amounts of damage to the economy with its insane belief that the one area of human activity that doesn't need to be policed is the economy, off the top of my head, over the neoliberal period of the last forty years,

  • when we pushed interest rates to nearly 20% because we believed that the Fed creates inflation by printing too much money.
  • when we allowed banks to speculate in the stock market with leveraged and depositors' money.
  • when we deregulated the electrical energy market in California handing the energy companies market set prices and the ability to cause shortages to keep those prices high, reference Enron.
  • when we effectively stopped arresting employers who hired illegals, libertarian philosophy of individual freedom and open borders.
  • when we deregulated the thrifts, the savings and loan disaster.
  • when started turning the healthcare industry into a profit-seeking business instead of the way to keep people healthy.
  • when we deregulated the derivatives market.
  • when we allowed drug companies and lawyers to advertise.
  • when we allowed drug companies to sell water in small green and brown bottles as drugs at drug prices, the deregulation of alternative medicine.
  • when we declared money to be free speech, making elections easier to buy.
  • when we declared that businesses are people and therefore their executives can't be held responsible for their bad decisions.
  • when we decided that we all would be safer the more guns we have.
  • when we ran up 12 trillion dollars worth of national debt by passing tax cuts for the already wealthy because taxation is theft.
  • when we decided offshore jobs resulting in the shifting of more of the rewards from the economy from wages to profits, from the middle class to the rich, because free trade has to be good because free is good.
  • when Alan Greenspan and the Fed failed to rein in the banks pushing subprime mortgage-backed derivatives because they thought that the banks had learned to self-regulate.
  • and the biggest one of all, when we decided to ignore the overwhelming evidence of man-made climate change because the only possible solution for it involves government action.
All of these are the results of the libertarian philosophy in action.

If it makes you uncomfortable to talk about the reality of the libertarian philosophy in actual results, and I can appreciate why you wouldn't want to do this, I am fully capable of discussing the many weaknesses of the Austrian/Libertarian economic theories. For example,

  • the death of the idea of comparative advantage justification for free trade due to widespread industrialization, the ability of capital in the form of money and of ideas, intellectual property, to cross borders in fractions of seconds.
  • the obvious contradiction that you can't have freedom without limiting freedom, that I can't enjoy my freedom without someone preventing others having their freedom to rob or murder me, paradoxically, the more freedom you allow the more freedom you have to restrict.
  • that what makes capitalism so effective is that it channels an otherwise harmful trait, greed, into a very constructive result, but it requires an adult to do the channeling, which is and always has been the government.
  • that the more complex the economy is, the larger and more complex that the government must be.
  • that what kills competition in the economy faster than anything are the interests of the competitors to avoid price competition at any cost.
  • that the only theory offered for exactly how the free market would self-regulate is marginal productivity, which, in an industrial economy with effectively no long-term diminishing returns can only result in one of two things, either profitless competition or monopolies and price-fixing cartels. Neither is desirable.
  • there is no reason to believe that prices, outside of a very few commodities, are set by supply and demand, that almost all products and services are set by the producer or provider at the average cost of production plus a markup to provide a potential profit.
  • that profits are the residual left from revenues after all costs are accounted for, they aren't a cost of production that must be met, while businesses can operate indefinitely if their variable costs are covered by revenue and this is common to try to preserve the capital in the business, the failing business will not be able to expand or to innovate usually, seriously limiting their business and their longevity, another reason that businesses avoid competing on price.
  • that companies avoid at cost competing on price, noted above, and instead compete based on innovation, quality and improving productivity. Äll are desirable.
  • wages are a necessary cost of production, if wages don't rise as revenues increase or as productivity increases, profits will increase. An integral part of libertarians dedication to private ownership rights is that the business exists for the sole purpose of making profits for the owners or the pseudo-owners, the stockholders. This precludes wage increases for the workers whose productivity increased, who provided the innovations and instead rewards the non-participants, who in the case of the stockholders didn't even provide the money used to fund the change.
  • we have to separate what we need from the economy from what the economy needs to operate. For example, the capitalist economy needs profits to operate and to grow, but it can't use an excessive amount of profits to grow faster or bigger, in fact since excessive profits are made rather than used to pay a higher wage, they actually prevent the growth that would have occurred if the money was paid as higher wages, because wages make up the vast majority of the demand in the economy. Like it or not, our current economy is demand driven, the idea that capital in the form of money is a scarce resource and that if we just provide more of it we will see more growth is a stubborn artifact of an agrarian economy and the gold standard for money that should be long gone but aren't because these provide a paper-thin justification to divert ever-increasing amounts of money to profits and to the already rich, like me, thank you very much.
  • the income inequality that libertarian infused neoliberalism produces is huge amounts of debt. But not just the public debt, that until Trump and the totally Republican controlled government was the obsession of the right, but the private debt, think about student loans to now poorly supported schools or the ever-increasing medical and housing costs, also tracible to neoliberalism, means that private debt is now about 150% of GDP, or about 30 trillion dollars and growing every year. The decades-long average of private debt before the neoliberal period was 60 to 70% of GDP.
  • Private debt is much more dangerous for the economy than the public debt. Private debt makes recessions much more likely and means that it is harder and slower to recover from. The current good economy can be traced to, once again, the increase in the private debt. Not a brilliant handling of the economy by either Trump or Obama. We would have to increase wages to see sustainable, debt-free growth, that stabilizes the economy.
It won't surprise you that I have much more on these subjects but this is enough to get you started.

One thing I've noticed about Jason, Trausti et al from our conservo-lib ranks, is that when you present concrete problems they offer ideological truisms.
... I think the ideal form of society would be anarchism. Of course it will require that everyone buy in as an ethical player, but with nothing more than that, it's better than anything else.

So I will smugly walk away from you if you challenge my ideal, satisfied that I have given you The Solution, and only your own reticence to buy into it is preventing it from bringing Peace on Earth and Universal Prosperity. So fuck you and your reggle-ayshins!
 
Everyone worked on the farm _for_their_parents_ who, in large majorities, loved them. The farm worked as much as needed to feed themselves. No child was given longer hours for anything that did not profit the family. They were never working extra to make someone else's family more idle. They were working as much as necessary to feed their own.

Surely you know that?

I think you've idealized the pre-industrial feudal age. It's rather ironic, since those who support the free market are often accused of being feudalists when it was the free market that released people from feudalism.

Compare it to factory work where children working 8 hours or 18 hours pads the pockets of someone else, someone who did not need it to just remain fed. That's the exploitation.

Surely you know that?

Yes, they went form long hours on the farm to long hours on the factory.

So, given long hours either way, hard labor either way, why would someone choose to leave the farm for the factory? Surely they had to know it was worse in every way!

And given that kids were working before the factory opened, then having them work at the factory was working either in the field or on the farm. Surely you realize that they are working in either situation?

And yes it was collectives and government that finally gave those children a rest by more fairly enforcing that "if your business depends on the torture and exploitation of workers, you don't get to have that business." Same argument that ends slavery, right? Sure the FREE MARKET supports slavery. Why not? If you can do it, then do it! Woot!

Well, it is true that if your business depends on torture and exploitation, you don't get to have a business. There's a factory with truly inhumane conditions, there's another factory that treats its people well, so everyone will flock to the first because without benevolent dictatorship they won't know any better.

What part of Libertarianism - stopped child labor exploitation? Can you explain better?

The part that, because of the free market, the standard of living was raised to the point where children no longer needed to work the way they had in the days before the standard of living rose, when everyone worked grueling labor on the farm.

Then what? Polluter says, "what are you going to do about it?"

"Sue your pants off. Better give me the deed to your company now and save yourself the bother later."
 
Back
Top Bottom