The religion of "no beginning".

[untermensche]

We immediately set out to divide things up between things finite and things infinite.

Bull. Humans existed for a long time before infinity existed. There is no reason a person would imagine it. Just like most people would not invent Scientology.

One way we divide is between what can be observed and what cannot. Between the real and the imagined.

Infinity was invented by some freak. By somebody who thought very differently from most.

It is not something that can be observed in any way.

It can only be invented.

But most would never imagine it because they will never see a hint of it. All anybody will ever see is the finite in their finite existence.

 

[humbleman]

There is nothing that exists that cannot be divided up into chronologies such that any point can be called its beginning.

Ah yes, but you just forgot something. We're definitely methodical as a species if we're anything at all. Chronologies is one thing but we can't stop ourselves ordering the chaos around us. We're just so maniacal about it!

And, so, naturally, we've been given reality to inherit and what do we do with it? We immediately set out to divide things up between things finite and things infinite. You'd think it should be good enough but no! We just can't stop! We now want to say whether there's an infinite quantity of finite things and a finite quantity of infinite things, and vice-versa. The sheer perversion of it! So amazing!

Fortunately, we have here the Wise among the Wise to bring some restraint here. "I'm telling you", says He, "infinity just couldn't possibly exist! Repent, you bloody idiots!"

So, please, just listen to Him and His message.

And eat popcorn.
EB

Who loves you, baby? (Kojak)

What is happening is that you grew up with established conventional ideas.

Same idea of flowing time, the idea of infinite reached the door of science.

As philosophy, you can debate infinity the way you choose, the way you like it, it creates lots of paths bringing new insight of how great human's invention can run as if in a race.

But you must learn to discern between physical reality and thoughts.

Unfortunately, many corrupt scientists take advantage of people like you, and sell you tires all the time. You are just continuously buying them.

Rather than making complaints against the ones who are showing you how nuts are the ideas you are defending, why not going to those corrupt scientists to prove their ideas with solid evidence? Science and other branches of knowledge are being so corrupt, that when you turn On your TV and watch "History Channel" the majority of topics are about UFOs.

So, there you are, just another guy with his mind filled with UFOs.

Same way you watch those programs and read their books and articles, same way others like me are watching you while eating popcorn and drinking sodas...

 

[Kharakov]

My own mind certainly doesn't seem to require a beginning to every thing. I feel very good about reality itself, for example, having no beginning at all. In fact, I feel bad about the opposite idea of reality having a beginning. It just feels wrong.

That's an interesting way of putting it. The gut feeling is that reality did not ensue, and it concurs with logical thought.


As always, reality didn't ensue.

 

[untermensche]

Gut feelings are something to be very skeptical of.

An infinity of time before yesterday is what disturbs a rational mind, not the guts.

 

[bilby]

We immediately set out to divide things up between things finite and things infinite.

Bull. Humans existed for a long time before infinity existed. There is no reason a person would imagine it. Just like most people would not invent Scientology.

One way we divide is between what can be observed and what cannot. Between the real and the imagined.

Infinity was invented by some freak. By somebody who thought very differently from most.

It is not something that can be observed in any way.

It can only be invented.

But most would never imagine it because they will never see a hint of it. All anybody will ever see is the finite in their finite existence.

Wow. You really have a huge amount of anger at this concept. It must have done something terrible to you.

Can you show us on the doll where the infinity touched you?

 

[Speakpigeon]

My own mind certainly doesn't seem to require a beginning to every thing. I feel very good about reality itself, for example, having no beginning at all. In fact, I feel bad about the opposite idea of reality having a beginning. It just feels wrong.

That's an interesting way of putting it. The gut feeling is that reality did not ensue, and it concurs with logical thought.


As always, reality didn't ensue.

Yeah, and sometimes, it can help to just think with our guts.

I'm considering starting a new thread about free gut thinking!

If we have free will, surely we must have free gut thinking!
EB

 

[Speakpigeon]

Wow. You really have a huge amount of anger at this concept. It must have done something terrible to you.

Can you show us on the doll where the infinity touched you?

Well, you'd think it must be infinitely painful but no, UM just explained, it can't be.

It can only be finitely painful.

So, really bearable, we have to suppose.
EB

 

[Kharakov]

This is not your thread. It is mine and I started it to avoid the nonsense you are trying to pull.

Yes, my nimbly bimbly bright minded friend. This ball of yarn is yours. All yours. To bat around until you see a moat of dust in a sunbeam, which is an affront to your existence, and you must pounce. As you roll on the floor, you notice a spider on the wall, and conclude rightfully, it too is an affront to your existence. How dare it sit placidly, gazing at you with many eyes, while you, the utterly perfect being, are laying in the warm sunbeam... must lick belly.

There is no way he gives you a straight answer. I'd bet you 1 million dollars.... if I wasn't paranoid about untermensche being a setup to get me to make an exorbitant bet that he'd say or do something stupid.

I am asking a different question. This thread is not about causes. I will bet you will not ever answer it.

Is it possible to traverse an infinite line?

I've crossed plenty of lines.

You did not answer the question.

I win my bet.

I suppose if your bet was that I would misinterpret what you say deliberately, operating under the assumption that all of your misinterpretations of what others say are deliberate ass well.

 

[untermensche]

We immediately set out to divide things up between things finite and things infinite.

Bull. Humans existed for a long time before infinity existed. There is no reason a person would imagine it. Just like most people would not invent Scientology.

One way we divide is between what can be observed and what cannot. Between the real and the imagined.

Infinity was invented by some freak. By somebody who thought very differently from most.

It is not something that can be observed in any way.

It can only be invented.

But most would never imagine it because they will never see a hint of it. All anybody will ever see is the finite in their finite existence.

Wow. You really have a huge amount of anger at this concept. It must have done something terrible to you.

Can you show us on the doll where the infinity touched you?

No I have understanding of the concept.

Once again your opinion has no connection to any facts.

 

[Kharakov]

Gut feelings are something to be very skeptical of.

An infinity of time before yesterday is what disturbs a rational mind, not the guts.

At least we know that reality does not impair some people's ability to deny reality... at least until they die, or their reality denial apparatus breaks.

 

[untermensche]

Gut feelings are something to be very skeptical of.

An infinity of time before yesterday is what disturbs a rational mind, not the guts.

At least we know that reality does not impair some people's ability to deny reality... at least until they die, or their reality denial apparatus breaks.

You know you are the one in denial.

You believe in magic.

You think it is possible to completely traverse an infinite line, completely traverse an infinity.

On your magic carpet I suppose.

 

[Kharakov]

You're saying I don't cross lines?

 

[untermensche]

Lines?

Where have you ever seen a line?

 

[DBT]

That is just sad. You claim that no beginning is 'religion' but quite obviously cannot address the problem of First Cause.

There is no problem of first cause if there must be a first cause.

Can the past be infinite? Can you traverse an infinite line?

Is a first cause necessary? Is a beginning necessary? Can you have progression without a beginning to that progression?

We can certainly conclude that before we can examine the possible nature of a first cause.

It's not a question of first cause being necessary. My question to you was, do you believe that there was a first cause? You reject eternity of time.....so what is your alternative? First cause or something else?

 

[Kharakov]

He has no logical response.

 

[untermensche]

That is just sad. You claim that no beginning is 'religion' but quite obviously cannot address the problem of First Cause.

There is no problem of first cause if there must be a first cause.

Can the past be infinite? Can you traverse an infinite line?

Is a first cause necessary? Is a beginning necessary? Can you have progression without a beginning to that progression?

We can certainly conclude that before we can examine the possible nature of a first cause.

It's not a question of first cause being necessary. My question to you was, do you believe that there was a first cause? You reject eternity of time.....so what is your alternative? First cause or something else?

It is all about being necessary. If something is necessary to dismiss it is irrational.

I am asking you. For the tenth time.

Is it possible the past was infinite?

If it was not then of course it had a beginning.

So was the past infinite or not? Is it possible to traverse an infinite line?

That is the question this thread is looking at.

Why are you here and not addressing the OP in any way?

What I know is that it is impossible the past was infinite.

This has nothing to do with beliefs.

Except those with the religious belief in "no beginning".

 

[Kharakov]

Is it possible the past was infinite?

It's impossible that it wasn't, unless you're equivocating or redefining "the past". Are you?


You ever play ping pong with a wall?

So was the past infinite or not? Is it possible to traverse an infinite line?

The 2 questions are not equivalent. The past is infinite (something always existed), unless you define the past as "the unterpast is the past that can be measured".

The past has not existed for a measurable amount of cycles, as far as I know, but if you only measure time by measurable cycles, the past is finite. Prior to there being measurable cycles, there were things that just existed while changing forms without specific comparable cycle lengths (or beings that could measure comparable cycle lengths).

What I know is that it is impossible the past was infinite.

No you don't. You can't know something that is untrue: you believe it.

This has nothing to do with beliefs.

So you don't know it, you say it. I believe you don't say what you believe at all times. I, however, am always serious.

 

[untermensche]

It's impossible that it wasn't, unless you're equivocating or redefining "the past". Are you?

So you're saying you can traverse an infinite line.

The past has all been traversed at any given moment.

It had to be finite.

You can only traverse a finite line.

The 2 questions are not equivalent.

Yes they are. Your inability to see it is your problem.

Only finite lines can be traversed.

The past had to be finite.

It is no more difficult than that.

Except to the believers in "no beginning". Religious nuts.

 

[DBT]

It's not a question of first cause being necessary. My question to you was, do you believe that there was a first cause? You reject eternity of time.....so what is your alternative? First cause or something else?

It is all about being necessary. If something is necessary to dismiss it is irrational.

I am asking you. For the tenth time.

Is it possible the past was infinite?

If it was not then of course it had a beginning.

So was the past infinite or not? Is it possible to traverse an infinite line?

That is the question this thread is looking at.

Why are you here and not addressing the OP in any way?

What I know is that it is impossible the past was infinite.

This has nothing to do with beliefs.

Except those with the religious belief in "no beginning".

You haven't answered my question, instead of answering my question you deflect your clear unwillingness to give an answer by claiming that I have not answered your question, which I think I have already said long ago...that I see no reason why 'no beginning' should be dismissed as a possibility. Whether time is actually eternal or not is not known. How the Universe came about, or if it did (cyclic) is not known.

Now can you answer my question or not? A simple yes or no will do.

Again, do you believe that there was a first cause? You reject eternity of time.....so what is your alternative? First cause or something else?

 

[Kharakov]

It's impossible that it wasn't, unless you're equivocating or redefining "the past". Are you?

So you're saying you can traverse an infinite line.

I can cross any line. In fact, it's the only thing I get better at as I drink.