• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

The religion of "no beginning".

And yet, that indemonstrable, abstract, seemingly imaginary idea seems necessary to the mathematics which accurately describe motion in the real world, untermensche. Do you deny the manifold applications of calculus to science, technology, and engineering?

There is no doubt it is imaginary and it is useful in scientific models, which are abstractions of the real world.

But being useful does not make it a physical possibility.

And if you took calculus you know that infinity is not really ever used as a value. Nothing in the real world has a value of infinity. It is used in combination with limits and it is used only definitionally not in fact.

No matter how many times you divide a line segment you will always end up with a line segment of positive length.

You will never end up with a segment of zero length. That is not possible.

The real mystery here, I think, is the point of contact between the abstract, and the concrete. The fact that concrete problems can be solved using such abstractions as infinity is just plain weird, yes. But your approach- simply denying that abstractions have anything to do with the real, concrete world- isn't going to help solve that mystery.

Numbers are no more mysterious that any human invented concepts, like justice or love.

Where does the number three come from?

The same place that invented all human concepts. The human mind.

The human mind is the great mystery, not what it invents.
 
I have already pointed out that your 'transverse an infinite line'' is arbitrary and bogus. There is no reason why something needs to transverse infinity for infinity to exist.

Please stop asserting false requirements.

What exactly is arbitrary and bogus about not being able to traverse an infinite line?

Well, explain your reasoning.....why exactly is it that something must necessarily 'traverse' infinity for infinity to be possible?

Can you describe the reason?
There is no possible way infinity could exist, but that will not be discovered merely by imagining.

It takes the ability to reason as well.

Wow, really? These are not explanations or arguments, they are assertions.
 
Well, explain your reasoning.....why exactly is it that something must necessarily 'traverse' infinity for infinity to be possible?

It is just showing that infinity is not something physically achievable. It is not something you can have in the real world. In any form.

Time is not a nothingness like a mathematical point.

You cannot have an infinity of it. That doesn't make sense. An infinity is not something you can have. It is only something you can describe or define.

Tell me how a physical infinity could be possible.

What infinity have you seen?
 
Well, explain your reasoning.....why exactly is it that something must necessarily 'traverse' infinity for infinity to be possible?

It is just showing that infinity is not something physically achievable. It is not something you can have in the real world. In any form.

Time is not a nothingness like a mathematical point.

You cannot have an infinity of it. That doesn't make sense. An infinity is not something you can have. It is only something you can describe or define.

Tell me how a physical infinity could be possible.

What infinity have you seen?

That is a collection of statements that does not explain why - exactly - something must necessarily 'traverse' infinity for infinity to be possible...that was my question.
 
Well, explain your reasoning.....why exactly is it that something must necessarily 'traverse' infinity for infinity to be possible?

It is just showing that infinity is not something physically achievable. It is not something you can have in the real world. In any form.

Time is not a nothingness like a mathematical point.

You cannot have an infinity of it. That doesn't make sense. An infinity is not something you can have. It is only something you can describe or define.

Tell me how a physical infinity could be possible.

What infinity have you seen?

That is a collection of statements that does not explain why - exactly - something must necessarily 'traverse' infinity for infinity to be possible...that was my question.

All the time in the past has been traversed. It has existed.

If it is impossible to traverse an infinity then the time in the past could not have been infinite.
 
That is a collection of statements that does not explain why - exactly - something must necessarily 'traverse' infinity for infinity to be possible...that was my question.

All the time in the past has been traversed. It has existed.

No one single thing needs to have transversed all of the time in the past for time to exist. A multitude of objects may come and go. That is the point. That is why your clause is bogus.

If it is impossible to traverse an infinity then the time in the past could not have been infinite.

Like time in a long but finite past, there need not be a single object that must necessarily transverse an infinity of time for infinity to exist.
 
No one single thing needs to have transversed all of the time in the past for time to exist.

If there actually is time then there can in theory be something existing in that time, traversing that time. Just as there are people traversing time now.

You can't claim there can both be time and also not be the ability of something to be existing in that time.

In all the time in the past it is in theory possible for something to be existing.

So if you want to claim the past was infinite that is like getting into an imaginary rocket and riding an infinite line to it's end.
 
No one single thing needs to have transversed all of the time in the past for time to exist.

If there actually is time then there can in theory be something existing in that time, traversing that time. Just as there are people traversing time now.

You can't claim there can both be time and also not be the ability of something to be existing in that time.

In all the time in the past it is in theory possible for something to be existing.

So if you want to claim the past was infinite that is like getting into an imaginary rocket and riding an infinite line to it's end.

People are not traversing all of time. People do not need to traverse all of time for time to exist prior to the existence of people or after people no longer exist. Your example is not valid. Please stop using it.
 
No one single thing needs to have transversed all of the time in the past for time to exist.

If there actually is time then there can in theory be something existing in that time, traversing that time. Just as there are people traversing time now.

You can't claim there can both be time and also not be the ability of something to be existing in that time.

In all the time in the past it is in theory possible for something to be existing.

So if you want to claim the past was infinite that is like getting into an imaginary rocket and riding an infinite line to it's end.

People are not traversing all of time. People do not need to traverse all of time for time to exist prior to the existence of people or after people no longer exist. Your example is not valid. Please stop using it.

You have no valid criticism. This has nothing to do with people traversing all of time. It is about the impossibility of infinite time. The impossibility of any infinity actually existing.

You cannot traverse any infinity. You don't actually have to imagine anything to understand that.

An infinity is not something that anything can traverse. Even time itself.

There is no such thing as a real world infinity. It is not a real world concept.

And those that claim there are have no evidence for their delusions.
 
Imagine, if you would, someone who could not turn their neck, or understand the number of directions that they would have faced if they did it.

Imagine... Steve Martin's ideal woman. untermensche.
 
Imagine, if you would, someone who could not turn their neck, or understand the number of directions that they would have faced if they did it.

Imagine... Steve Martin's ideal woman. untermensche.

You keep saying this nonsense.

Nobody can turn their head infinite directions.

That doesn't make any real world sense.

Any movement in the real world has to be some positive amount.

The only issue is what is the smallest possible amount something can move.
 
RU just uninformed? One can turn one's head about 210 degrees left or right. That, 420 degrees, amounts to much more than a full circle. A full circle is a completed line that finishes where it began. so specified there is no end to the number of degrees one can specify in either just one cycle of a circle or in any number of one wants to pursue that line which has no end.

So, either by fractionalization infinite number of degree setting in a cycle or number of whole degrees one can count on a circular line, there are infinite items available. If a wheel begins turning at whatever rate you choose, then I can choose a duration that will exceed your ability to count degrees. All of these things are true. It is also true that one can extend a line beyond on'e ability to specify number of segments or point in that line.

Enough of ad absurdum.

There is no statement in mathematics that states only one count may be represented by any point. Either every point is divisible or there are added points possible at every stated point. These are the true limitation you have with your argument.

Kinda finishes you off I think.

One meaning of what infinity comes down to is specifying something beyond the capability of anther to attain. Or, if one selects a number another can specify a number greater than any one might specify. If that can be formalized, which it can, one has a working definition of infinity. Neither of those statements includes limits on representation.
 
Last edited:
What is the minimal movement a human can make?

You do understand that according to the mathematics of infinite movement the smallest possible movement is 0?

But of course in the real world that is not a movement. In the real world a movement has to be something greater than zero.
 
People are not traversing all of time. People do not need to traverse all of time for time to exist prior to the existence of people or after people no longer exist. Your example is not valid. Please stop using it.

You have no valid criticism. This has nothing to do with people traversing all of time. It is about the impossibility of infinite time. The impossibility of any infinity actually existing.

You cannot traverse any infinity. You don't actually have to imagine anything to understand that.

An infinity is not something that anything can traverse. Even time itself.

There is no such thing as a real world infinity. It is not a real world concept.

And those that claim there are have no evidence for their delusions.

Sad. None so blind.....
 
The real mystery here, I think, is the point of contact between the abstract, and the concrete. The fact that concrete problems can be solved using such abstractions as infinity is just plain weird, yes. But your approach- simply denying that abstractions have anything to do with the real, concrete world- isn't going to help solve that mystery.

Numbers are no more mysterious that any human invented concepts, like justice or love.

Where does the number three come from?

The same place that invented all human concepts. The human mind.

The human mind is the great mystery, not what it invents.

Well, I'd say that the concept of the number three is considerably less mysterious than the concept of infinity. :)

But I won't argue that the human mind with all its wondrous abstractions, and how that mind is produced by the physical brain, is indeed a mystery. Maybe if we succeed in making self-aware computers, they can help us solve it.
 
People are not traversing all of time. People do not need to traverse all of time for time to exist prior to the existence of people or after people no longer exist. Your example is not valid. Please stop using it.

You have no valid criticism. This has nothing to do with people traversing all of time. It is about the impossibility of infinite time. The impossibility of any infinity actually existing.

You cannot traverse any infinity. You don't actually have to imagine anything to understand that.

An infinity is not something that anything can traverse. Even time itself.

There is no such thing as a real world infinity. It is not a real world concept.

And those that claim there are have no evidence for their delusions.

Except of course for a thing which has existed for an infinite amount of time. We humans don't exist as units, for an infinite amount of time, so we can't conceive of us going back forever.
But time doesn't play backwards. However if we do a thought experiment, we can imagine going back in time, and never finding a beginning. And just how long (?) would one have to go back, (in imagination), before one could reach the conclusion, "You know what, this never ends, (or never starts to be more accurate)".

Of course to speak of going back to the beginning is nonsense, (if time-past is infinite), because there would be no beginning. But suppose time-past is infinite - we'd have no way of knowing what it would be like, and no way of knowing if it were impossible or not. So all we can do is speculate. Some cosmologists have proposed that time-past may well be infinite, or beginningless. And good gravy, what differences might there be in the nature of reality, if time-past were indeed infinite, if we could travel back over time for a look-see. The very nature of time itself could be different, varied, unrecognisable by our standards and experiences, as we recede, (if we could arrange it), into the dim recesses of time-past.

It is also pointless to say that if time-past were infinite, that it could never reach today. That implies that there is a point of time in the past, from which we could never reach today. But going backwards, we could never reach such a point in time - it's a nonsense, (in an infinity of time-past).

The mathematical concept of a line, is an infinite series of points, and yet we can go from point 'A', to distant point 'B' on any such line, ('A' and 'B' are separate and on that line). Of course, points are of size zero, so we can fit an infinity of them into a finite interval. But the concept of a moment in time is also zero, being the boundary between time-past, and time-future, and yet itself being neither past nor future, and of duration zero. A moment in time is neither then, nor to become, but is just a location on the time-line, as a point is neither left nor right, but is just a location on the spatial-line.

So a moment in time is the interface between past and future, just as a plane is the interface between one volume of space and another. Yet the plane has only two dimensions, and no thickness. So a plane has no scalar measure perpendicular to itself. It's a boundary, just as there is a boundary between time past and time future, also with zero dimensions perpendicular to the time-line. But being of size zero, there can be an infinity of moments between any two designated non-identical points on a time line.

As for evidence, it's like creationists asking for direct experiential evidence of one kind of animal evolving into another. No one lives long enough to have directly observed a hippopotamus-like animal evolving into a whale. But that doesn't mean that it's not true. One has to seek other evidence. In the case of a beginningless cosmos would have to be a mathematical one, I'd suspect. At least a mathematical model, consistent with our current knowledge of physics, which allowed for infinite time-past, would point to it not being impossible.
 
Any non-infinite quantity is imaginary.

I don't mean to argue about that myself because I don't know (not yet :cool:), but it seems to me that beero1000 would disagree.

Speakpigeon said:
I guess the inherent limitation with our mathematical concept of infinity is that it is broadly speaking algorithmic in nature. Infinity is conceived by mathematicians as the purely notional limit of an unbounded series of terms. In this sense, infinity is not thought of, conceived, as anything like an ontological reality.

Not really. That idea is outdated by 100+ years, and persists because the first (and usually only) time most people see infinity in math classes is usually in the context of precalculus or calculus, where it is used as a shorthand for a version of the epsilon-delta limit definitions, which don't formally require the infinite at all. Mathematicians actually see being 'infinite' as a property of objects, where the infinite numbers are sizes (or orders) like any other. It would be like saying the concept of 3 is algorithmic because it is the algorithmic notion of the counting process 1, 2, 3. Technically, you could view it that way, but that's a little stilted, and not how most people think of the property '3'.

A property of objects is presumably something real. So, if "the 'infinite' is a property of objects", it must be something real.

Maybe you could interpret this oracle for me?
EB
 
It is also pointless to say that if time-past were infinite, that it could never reach today. That implies that there is a point of time in the past, from which we could never reach today. But going backwards, we could never reach such a point in time - it's a nonsense, (in an infinity of time-past).


Yes. For an observer, any point in time or infinity is today. It doesn't have to be reached.

For us who are here and now, it is always today, it is always now.
 
What is the minimal movement a human can make?

You do understand that according to the mathematics of infinite movement the smallest possible movement is 0?

But of course in the real world that is not a movement. In the real world a movement has to be something greater than zero.

No. The minimum difference, movement, is any movement epsilon greater than delta greater than zero.

No. Minimum movement, length is  Planck length which is the minimum distance any physical thing can be measured to make in the real world.
 
Back
Top Bottom