The religion of "no beginning".

[untermensche]

People are not traversing all of time. People do not need to traverse all of time for time to exist prior to the existence of people or after people no longer exist. Your example is not valid. Please stop using it.

You have no valid criticism. This has nothing to do with people traversing all of time. It is about the impossibility of infinite time. The impossibility of any infinity actually existing.

You cannot traverse any infinity. You don't actually have to imagine anything to understand that.

An infinity is not something that anything can traverse. Even time itself.

There is no such thing as a real world infinity. It is not a real world concept.

And those that claim there are have no evidence for their delusions.

Sad. None so blind.....

Yes it is sad you think you have some objection but actually have none.

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People are not traversing all of time. People do not need to traverse all of time for time to exist prior to the existence of people or after people no longer exist. Your example is not valid. Please stop using it.

You have no valid criticism. This has nothing to do with people traversing all of time. It is about the impossibility of infinite time. The impossibility of any infinity actually existing.

You cannot traverse any infinity. You don't actually have to imagine anything to understand that.

An infinity is not something that anything can traverse. Even time itself.

There is no such thing as a real world infinity. It is not a real world concept.

And those that claim there are have no evidence for their delusions.

Except of course for a thing which has existed for an infinite amount of time...

That is not possible. It requires a completed infinity. Something that is not possible.

It makes no sense.

You cannot demonstrate in any way it is a rational thing to think.

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Any non-infinite quantity is imaginary.

Three bananas are not imaginary.

But the idea of infinite bananas is.

 

[untermensche]

The real mystery here, I think, is the point of contact between the abstract, and the concrete. The fact that concrete problems can be solved using such abstractions as infinity is just plain weird, yes. But your approach- simply denying that abstractions have anything to do with the real, concrete world- isn't going to help solve that mystery.

Numbers are no more mysterious that any human invented concepts, like justice or love.

Where does the number three come from?

The same place that invented all human concepts. The human mind.

The human mind is the great mystery, not what it invents.

Well, I'd say that the concept of the number three is considerably less mysterious than the concept of infinity.

But I won't argue that the human mind with all its wondrous abstractions, and how that mind is produced by the physical brain, is indeed a mystery. Maybe if we succeed in making self-aware computers, they can help us solve it.

The concept of three is the idea of identical units. Units that are exactly the same thing in every way.

That is numbers. The natural numbers.

But there are only similar things in the real world.

No identical things. At least at the level of human observations.

And what exactly do you think some human created machine will solve?

No machine will ever tell us infinity can be real. It is not a real world concept, like identical unit is not a real world concept.

 

[untermensche]

Not really. That idea is outdated by 100+ years, and persists because the first (and usually only) time most people see infinity in math classes is usually in the context of precalculus or calculus, where it is used as a shorthand for a version of the epsilon-delta limit definitions, which don't formally require the infinite at all. Mathematicians actually see being 'infinite' as a property of objects, where the infinite numbers are sizes (or orders) like any other. It would be like saying the concept of 3 is algorithmic because it is the algorithmic notion of the counting process 1, 2, 3. Technically, you could view it that way, but that's a little stilted, and not how most people think of the property '3'.

A property of objects is presumably something real. So, if "the 'infinite' is a property of objects", it must be something real.

Maybe you could interpret this oracle for me?
EB

It's absolute gibberish.

The concept of infinity does not by magic become real when you rise in the priesthood and discover the magic incantations.

This person has been raised on Harry Potter.

A child.

 

[untermensche]

It is also pointless to say that if time-past were infinite, that it could never reach today. That implies that there is a point of time in the past, from which we could never reach today. But going backwards, we could never reach such a point in time - it's a nonsense, (in an infinity of time-past).

Yes. For an observer, any point in time or infinity is today. It doesn't have to be reached.

For us who are here and now, it is always today, it is always now.

No, for us humans we were one thing yesterday and are going to be something else tomorrow. Dust very soon.

Time is real and we are a different thing at every moment in time.

It is impossible for infinite changes to take place.

It is impossible infinite changes took place in the past.

It is impossible time was infinite in the past.

Infinity is an entirely imaginary concept.

To try to apply it in any way to the real world is stupidity.

 

[untermensche]

What is the minimal movement a human can make?

You do understand that according to the mathematics of infinite movement the smallest possible movement is 0?

But of course in the real world that is not a movement. In the real world a movement has to be something greater than zero.

No. The minimum difference, movement, is any movement epsilon greater than delta greater than zero.

Real world: For something to actually move it has to have a positive movement.

Imaginary world of infinity: An infinity of zero movements equals a positive movement.

Real world: Take an amount of units from a group of units and the number of units declines.

Imaginary world of infinity: Take an amount of units from a group of units and the number of units stays the same.

You are trying to say the imaginary is real.

It is hilarious.

 

[untermensche]

Quantum movement: The actual movement takes zero time. But there is a refractory period before another movement can be made.

Any movement is just a finite number of these quantum movements.

Smoothness is an illusion.

 

[Speakpigeon]

Not really. That idea is outdated by 100+ years, and persists because the first (and usually only) time most people see infinity in math classes is usually in the context of precalculus or calculus, where it is used as a shorthand for a version of the epsilon-delta limit definitions, which don't formally require the infinite at all. Mathematicians actually see being 'infinite' as a property of objects, where the infinite numbers are sizes (or orders) like any other. It would be like saying the concept of 3 is algorithmic because it is the algorithmic notion of the counting process 1, 2, 3. Technically, you could view it that way, but that's a little stilted, and not how most people think of the property '3'.

A property of objects is presumably something real. So, if "the 'infinite' is a property of objects", it must be something real.

Maybe you could interpret this oracle for me?
EB

It's absolute gibberish.

The concept of infinity does not by magic become real when you rise in the priesthood and discover the magic incantations.

This person has been raised on Harry Potter.

A child.

Brilliant! And who is doing incantations here?!

Well, you should know that your magic spells don't work on me.

______________________

And you don't seem to understand the very simple point that this bit of beero1000's post was about the current thinking of mathematicians, i.e. what is the concept of infinity that mathematicians entertain nowadays, not about the concept of infinity, and even less about infinity itself and whether it exists or not. And that's how I took it, essentially, even though I'm sure s/he only did this post to make me look like an idiot.

So, your post is beside the point here. You're so obsessed that you don't even take the time to read. Just relax, no one is really trying to steal your gold.
EB

 

[Speakpigeon]

Quantum movement: The actual movement takes zero time. But there is a refractory period before another movement can be made.

Any movement is just a finite number of these quantum movements.

Moire interesting is that any movement from Moscow to Paris takes therefore no time. It's the non-movement, the standing still between two quantum movement that takes time.

Maybe we should start to look seriously at the possibility of moving from Moscow to Paris in no time by getting rid of the standing still periods.

What is it this Elon Musk guy is wasting his money for?

No business sense!
EB

 

[untermensche]

It's absolute gibberish.

The concept of infinity does not by magic become real when you rise in the priesthood and discover the magic incantations.

This person has been raised on Harry Potter.

A child.

Brilliant! And who is doing incantations here?!

Well, you should know that your magic spells don't work on me.

______________________

And you don't seem to understand the very simple point that this bit of beero1000's post was about the current thinking of mathematicians, i.e. what is the concept of infinity that mathematicians entertain nowadays, not about the concept of infinity, and even less about infinity itself and whether it exists or not. And that's how I took it, essentially, even though I'm sure s/he only did this post to make me look like an idiot.

So, your post is beside the point here. You're so obsessed that you don't even take the time to read. Just relax, no one is really trying to steal your gold.
EB

I am trying to overcome insanity with sanity.

The idea of infinity has no connection to the real world. Except of course as a defined entity in mathematics.

To think the concept could in any way actually be real is a strange delusion.

An infinite series is something defined. It is not something discovered. It is not something observable.

Pretending infinity exists in the world won't ever make it possible.

 

[Kharakov]

any non infinite quantity is imaginary

I don't mean to argue about that myself because I don't know (not yet ), but it seems to me that beero1000 would disagree.

Every seperate entity or thing is an imaginarilly<sic> discrete component of one continuous reality.

Reality is one, like the number of sides of an infinihedron is one (some spherical reasoning required, I refer you to Bessie (AKA our localized lolcow), who is blissfully unaware of divergence and many other topics which allow discrete thought about the smooth, infinite continuum).

 

[Kharakov]

Smoothness is an illusion.

Says the guy who surfs the internet, but never caught a wave.

 

[Speakpigeon]

any non infinite quantity is imaginary

I don't mean to argue about that myself because I don't know (not yet ), but it seems to me that beero1000 would disagree.

Oops. Silly me. I realise I misread your post. I thought "any infinite quantity is imaginary". And I believe that's what beero1000 could disagree with. What you actually said, I wouldn't know.

Sorry for that. I guess you're giving me too much work commenting on your posts.

____________________

Every seperate entity or thing is an imaginarilly<sic> discrete component of one continuous reality.

Awl-rite. So, reality is continuous and QM is about, what, the quantification of our minds?

Literally mind Q-boggling.

I'm learning too many things everyday with you all.

Reality is one, like the number of sides of an infinihedron is one (some spherical reasoning required, I refer you to Bessie (AKA our localized lolcow), who is blissfully unaware of divergence and many other topics which allow discrete thought about the smooth, infinite continuum).

Okay, so our thoughts are continuous, too, I presume, since they must be part of reality, yes?

It's just that our continuous thoughts represent the world as discrete because, presumably, it's the brain optimising its scarce ressources, such as data operators, memory space, etc.

Or something.
EB

 

[Speakpigeon]

I am trying to overcome insanity with sanity.

Aren't we all?

The idea of infinity has no connection to the real world. Except of course as a defined entity in mathematics.

I don't know myself but you need to know that you've miserably failed to produce any rational justification of you view.

All you've done so far is produce incantations and magical spells that don't work on anybody.

To think the concept could in any way actually be real is a strange delusion.

That's a view you have still to justify.

An infinite series is something defined. It is not something discovered. It is not something observable.

More incantations and dark magic. I'm sitting here listening to the BBC, unaffected by your spells. Try something else.

Pretending infinity exists in the world won't ever make it possible.

Sure. But that's definitely not the idea.

And you could say that about just any and everything.

No much in that.

Well, presumably, like yesterday and I don't know how many days before that, it's still not today I will overcome the insanity of our posts.
EB

 

[Kharakov]

Continuous doesn't mean "doesn't have divergence".

 

[beero1000]

You do understand that according to the mathematics of infinite movement the smallest possible movement is 0?

Wrong.

Not that you'll admit that there's a difference, but it's the distinction between the  minimum and the  infimum.

 

[untermensche]

I can easily understand any distinction you could understand.

Your post is two links to some mathematical discussions.

This is a thread about a real infinity.

Something you have no link for.

What is 1/infinity? Show ALL your work.

 

[beero1000]

I can easily understand any distinction you could understand.

Your post is two links to some mathematical discussions.

This is a thread about a real infinity.

Something you have no link for.

What is 1/infinity? Show ALL your work.

You do understand that according to the mathematics of infinite movement the smallest possible movement is 0?

This is WRONG.

You made a statement about mathematics and a mathematician is calling you out on it. Doubling down after being caught in an incorrect statement may not be a mature reaction, but it was definitely an expected one.

 

[untermensche]

I can easily understand any distinction you could understand.

Your post is two links to some mathematical discussions.

This is a thread about a real infinity.

Something you have no link for.

What is 1/infinity? Show ALL your work.

You do understand that according to the mathematics of infinite movement the smallest possible movement is 0?

This is WRONG.

You made a statement about mathematics and a mathematician is calling you out on it. Doubling down after being caught in an incorrect statement may not be a mature reaction, but it was definitely an expected one.

I am happy to be wrong if I am shown to be wrong.

Your claim I am wrong is laughable.

 

[untermensche]

I don't know myself but you need to know that you've miserably failed to produce any rational justification of you view.

You can only lead horses to water.

 

[DBT]

Sad. None so blind.....

Yes it is sad you think you have some objection but actually have none.

Everyone who has argued against your claim is objecting to your assertions with your invalid conditions and giving good reasons why your claim fails....you ignore it all. You rinse and repeat.

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I am happy to be wrong if I am shown to be wrong.

Your claim I am wrong is laughable.

You would never accept the best of reasons showing why you are wrong .