The Remarkable Progress of Renewable Energy

[Loren Pechtel]

I think desalinization is the perfect example of where coordination is useful. I don't agree with your approach, though--the desalinator is expensive. However, desalinators don't actually run on electricity, but on pressure. Thus a cheaper approach is to store pressure--pump the seawater up to a high enough place to run the desalinator, the desalinator runs fine without any power. (Same as the normal home reverse osmosis units--it's basically the same tech.)

And the pump is going to run on?

The pump runs on solar when the sun shines, the pump runs on wind when the wind blows. Oversizing the pump so it can do it's job despite running only part of the time isn't that big a cost.

 

[Jokodo]

I think desalinization is the perfect example of where coordination is useful. I don't agree with your approach, though--the desalinator is expensive. However, desalinators don't actually run on electricity, but on pressure. Thus a cheaper approach is to store pressure--pump the seawater up to a high enough place to run the desalinator, the desalinator runs fine without any power. (Same as the normal home reverse osmosis units--it's basically the same tech.)

And the pump is going to run on?

The pump runs on solar when the sun shines, the pump runs on wind when the wind blows. Oversizing the pump so it can do it's job despite running only part of the time isn't that big a cost.

Ok, I understand how wind could directly power a pump without electricity as intermediary, but what do you mean by a pump running on solar but not electricity?

 

[KeepTalking]

The pump runs on solar when the sun shines, the pump runs on wind when the wind blows. Oversizing the pump so it can do it's job despite running only part of the time isn't that big a cost.

Ok, I understand how wind could directly power a pump without electricity as intermediary, but what do you mean by a pump running on solar but not electricity?

Loren actually said that desalinators run on pressure and not electricity. He is half right in that respect. Reverse osmosis desalinators run on pressure, not electricity, as they work by forcing water through a membrane that does not allow the salt to flow through with it. Another way of desalinating water is by heating it and collecting the condensation, and that kind of desalinator could rely on electricity to heat the water. I believe that reverse osmosis is the more widely used method of desalinating these days, at least in large scale operations.

 

[bilby]

The pump runs on solar when the sun shines, the pump runs on wind when the wind blows. Oversizing the pump so it can do it's job despite running only part of the time isn't that big a cost.

Ok, I understand how wind could directly power a pump without electricity as intermediary, but what do you mean by a pump running on solar but not electricity?

Loren actually said that desalinators run on pressure and not electricity. He is half right in that respect. Reverse osmosis desalinators run on pressure, not electricity, as they work by forcing water through a membrane that does not allow the salt to flow through with it. Another way of desalinating water is by heating it and collecting the condensation, and that kind of desalinator could rely on electricity to heat the water. I believe that reverse osmosis is the more widely used method of desalinating these days, at least in large scale operations.

Evaporative desalination is very inefficient; it's not practical for supplying thousands of cubic metres of water an hour, which is what you need for a town's or city's water supply.

It's typically only used in small scale applications where the volume of water required is low.

The problem with trying to use stored pressure for your reverse osmosis is that it requires massive fresh water storage at or below the location of your desalination plant, in which the product can be kept until electricity is available to pump the fresh water up to the top of your water supply system.

So instead of using the ocean as your saltwater supply, and having a single artificial reservoir at height to store fresh water once desalinated, you need three artificial reservoirs - your high level fresh water supply; Your high level salt water supply; and a low level fresh water holding reservoir for water produced when power is not available.

The number of sites with two suitable high level reservoirs is small. And low level bulk fresh water storage is very tricky, close to the sea, if you don't want to risk seawater ingress into your fresh water stores.

Tank farms are a great deal more expensive than dams, for large volumes of water storage.

Storing sea water at high level is also even more environmentally damaging than are fresh water reservoirs - and they are not exactly 'green'. Sea water also presents significant corrosion issues (which is why pumped storage hydroelectric schemes are almost always fresh water based).

So while it's certainly do-able, this kind of scheme is significantly more expensive than a regular desalination plant. Whether there's enough very cheap electricity, for a sufficiently large fraction of the day, to offset that expense will depend on just how much overproduction of electrical power you are prepared to tolerate.

 

[Jokodo]

The pump runs on solar when the sun shines, the pump runs on wind when the wind blows. Oversizing the pump so it can do it's job despite running only part of the time isn't that big a cost.

Ok, I understand how wind could directly power a pump without electricity as intermediary, but what do you mean by a pump running on solar but not electricity?

Loren actually said that desalinators run on pressure and not electricity.

Indeed - and he suggested pumping seawater to a high reservoir and letting gravity do its thing as a method to achieve that pressure.

So, again, how does he suggest we drive pumps on solar without a detour through electricity?

 

[bilby]

Loren actually said that desalinators run on pressure and not electricity.

Indeed - and he suggested pumping seawater to a high reservoir and letting gravity do its thing as a method to achieve that pressure.

So, again, how does he suggest we drive pumps on solar without a detour through electricity?

I don't think he was suggesting that - electricity was an implied step.

This is in the context of using the excess electricity generation from intermittent renewables, when the generation conditions are close to ideal. So an intermediate electrical energy step is implied.

Though if making fresh water were your primary objective, rather than a byproduct of excess electrical generation, pumps powered directly by wind are likely to be far more efficient.

There are some potential uses for electrical overproduction, but most present significant engineering challenges of their own. It's a case of desperately seeking customers for a service nobody needs.

And electricity is a service. Pretending it's a commodity is what makes the Germans think that they're helping the environment by building insane numbers of windmills; And why no matter how many they build, they still find themselves forced to burn coal and gas in vast quantities.

There's nothing so useless as doing, with great efficiency, that which should not be done at all.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The pump runs on solar when the sun shines, the pump runs on wind when the wind blows. Oversizing the pump so it can do it's job despite running only part of the time isn't that big a cost.

Ok, I understand how wind could directly power a pump without electricity as intermediary, but what do you mean by a pump running on solar but not electricity?

Of course it runs on electricity--I was talking about the source of the electricity.

It would also run when the base load generators exceeded the demand. (There's almost nothing to be gained by throttling down a nuke plant. If your nuke plants are producing more power than you need use them to pump water.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The pump runs on solar when the sun shines, the pump runs on wind when the wind blows. Oversizing the pump so it can do it's job despite running only part of the time isn't that big a cost.

Ok, I understand how wind could directly power a pump without electricity as intermediary, but what do you mean by a pump running on solar but not electricity?

Loren actually said that desalinators run on pressure and not electricity. He is half right in that respect. Reverse osmosis desalinators run on pressure, not electricity, as they work by forcing water through a membrane that does not allow the salt to flow through with it. Another way of desalinating water is by heating it and collecting the condensation, and that kind of desalinator could rely on electricity to heat the water. I believe that reverse osmosis is the more widely used method of desalinating these days, at least in large scale operations.

Reverse osmosis uses a lot less power to run than boiling.

I wonder if nuke plant cooling towers could be used for desalinating water... It would be quite inefficient but it's otherwise totally wasted energy, low efficiency is better than zero efficiency. The issue would be whether the salt water would be more problem than the water produced would be worth.

 

[lpetrich]

Desalinators do not work *directly* by electricity, as (say) electrolysis does. There are two main technologies for doing so: distillation and reverse osmosis (RO). Distillation works by boiling H2O out of seawater with heat or low pressure or some combination of the two. The H2O is then condensed. RO works by squeezing the H2O out of seawater by forcing it through a semipermeable membrane. Distillation is the older of the two desalination (desal) technologies, and RO is the more common one in recent desal facilities. These two technologies use electricity indirectly, for pumping and raising and lowering pressure.

 Desalination
Desalination Is Booming. But What About All That Toxic Brine? | WIRED - what's left over after much of its H2O has been removed.
Desalination Is Booming as Cities Run out of Water | WIRED
Why don't we get our drinking water from the ocean by taking the salt out of seawater? - Scientific American

 

[lpetrich]

Nuclear Energy Just Isn’t Competitive In The U.S. | OilPrice.com
Can The U.S. Keep Its Nuclear Industry Afloat? | OilPrice.com
Why Is China Losing Interest In Nuclear Power? | OilPrice.com

NV Energy Announces 'Hulkingly Big' Solar-Plus-Storage Procurement | Greentech Media - "NV Energy one-upped its huge 2018 solar and storage procurement on Tuesday, announcing three new solar projects totaling 1,200 megawatts paired with 590 megawatts of battery storage."

Another Wind PTC Extension? No Thanks, Many in Industry Say | Greentech Media - "The U.S. wind market is losing the main subsidy that’s fueled its spectacular rise to 100GW. Not everyone is sad to see it go."

The wind industry’s hands-off approach to the PTC phasedown stands in contrast to the U.S. solar industry, whose main trade group has confirmed that its "number one priority" is pushing for a full extension of the ITC.

...
The multi-year PTC phaseout secured in 2015 was a breakthrough because it gave the market unprecedented visibility, breaking from its historic whipsawing pattern of short-term expirations and extensions.

IMO, it's best to let that subsidy end. It would be politically good to survive without it, and not having to fight for its continuation means independence from fights in Congress over its extension.

WoodMac: Spanish 'Gold Rush' Helps Fuel New European Solar Boom | Greentech Media - "Subsidy-free projects, corporate deals, competitive tenders and green-minded politicians. Europe’s rebounding solar market has it all."

Europe’s long solar winter has come to an end.

After a multiyear period of depressed installations, Europe’s annual solar market is set to double over the next few years, and do so in a sustained manner, according to new research from Wood Mackenzie Power & Renewables.

Solar projects now regularly beat onshore wind in competitive auctions in Germany, one of the world’s most mature wind markets. France has rebounded and is now seen as the most attractive place to build solar in Europe.

Meanwhile, long-dormant Spain has rapidly transformed into a globally significant solar market, as well as a new hot spot for corporate renewables deals.

U.S. solar installation outlook brightens on falling costs: report - Reuters

The U.S. solar energy industry lifted its installation outlook for this year and beyond thanks to robust demand for large-scale projects by utilities buying the clean energy source for its low cost, according to a report published on Tuesday.

In 2019, installations are expected to be up 25 percent from 2018 to 13.3 gigawatts, the report from the Solar Energy Industries Association and Wood Mackenzie said. The groups’ previous forecast called for 14 percent growth this year.

Solar plus storage virtuous cycle seeks 728 GWh gas replacement opportunity – pv magazine USA

We write about gas and peakers vs solar and storage a lot here – first talking about how they can absolutely compete, then how states are forsaking gas and coal, afterwards how solar+storage is the peaker, and then we dream about the solar+storage 24 hour power plant. Specifically, the peaker market is an important segment offering many gigawatts of opportunities, enough to allow for the significant scaling that can allow solar to move into many terawatts deployed.

STA shines light on solar’s biodiversity benefits | Solar Power Portal

Solar can help wildlife to thrive, a new tool aims to prove while also seeking to help industry with improving biodiversity of sites.

Increasing the biodiversity of solar farms can help tackle both the climate emergency and the UK’s declining wildlife, the report, authored by the Solar Trade Association (STA), adds.

Illustrated with a picture of some sheep grazing underneath some solar panels.

 

[bilby]

Loren actually said that desalinators run on pressure and not electricity. He is half right in that respect. Reverse osmosis desalinators run on pressure, not electricity, as they work by forcing water through a membrane that does not allow the salt to flow through with it. Another way of desalinating water is by heating it and collecting the condensation, and that kind of desalinator could rely on electricity to heat the water. I believe that reverse osmosis is the more widely used method of desalinating these days, at least in large scale operations.

Reverse osmosis uses a lot less power to run than boiling.

I wonder if nuke plant cooling towers could be used for desalinating water... It would be quite inefficient but it's otherwise totally wasted energy, low efficiency is better than zero efficiency. The issue would be whether the salt water would be more problem than the water produced would be worth.

Better - use nuke plant cooling towers to capture CO₂, and use that to make synthetic gasoline.

http://bioage.typepad.com/greencarcongress/docs/GreenFreedom.pdf

 

[lpetrich]

Senators target 50% national renewable energy standard by 2035, zero-carbon by 2050 | Utility Dive

• Sen. Tom Udall, D-N.M., on Wednesday introduced a bill that would establish a 50% renewable energy standard (RES) across the U.S. by 2035.
• The bill would establish annual targets starting in 2020 requiring renewables generation for utilities based on their size. 17.6% of U.S. electricity was powered by renewables at the end of 2018, according to the Energy Information Association.
• Currently, 35 states and the District of Columbia have renewable portfolio standards (RPS), but only 11 of those plans meet or exceed the proposed 50% federal standard. Any state with a renewable portfolio standard that meets or exceeds the federal RES could opt out of that standard.

...
Udall is currently in conversations with Sens. Lisa Murkowski, R-Ala. and Joe Manchin D-W.Va., chair and ranking member, respectively, of the Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources, on getting the bill a hearing in the committee, E&E News reported.

100% Commitments in Cities, Counties, & States | Sierra Club

• Cities Committed to 100% Renewable Energy
• Cities Powered by 100% Renewable Energy
• Counties Committed to 100% Renewable Energy
• States, Districts, and Territories Committed to 100% Renewable Energy

The states that have gone the farthest are mostly blue states.

100 Percent Renewable Energy Targets by State | EnergySage - lists both renewable and clean ones, clean being renewable with other sources that do not emit carbon, like nuclear reactors.

100 Percent Clean Energy Goals: What Will It Take To Get There? - Renewable Energy World
100% Renewable | Environment America
Companies - RE100 - "182 RE100 companies have made a commitment to go '100% renewable'. Read about the actions they are taking and why."

I'd have to research these targets in detail to see what they involve. Electricity generation? Vehicle powering? Electricity generation is the most likely one, because that's where renewable energy has had the most success. Vehicle powering is a tougher nut to crack.

 

[lpetrich]

Why Is Floating Solar Emerging So Quickly, & Where Is It Going? | CleanTechnica noting Solarplaza 200+ Global Floating Solar Plants
From the second one: "Floating solar initially started with the goal of making better use of underutilized or contaminated bodies of water such as dams and reservoirs. However, new horizons are on sight for floating solar as new technologies enable the placement of solar panels on coastal saltwater, opening a sea of opportunities for RE."

Floating Solar Conference - a few months from now in Amsterdam - "floatovoltaics" - a whole conference on floating solar panels. Remarkable to see such a thing.

Over the last four years, the deployment of floating solar has grown more than a hundredfold, surpassing the milestone threshold of 1 GW in September 2018. Although the vast majority of deployments are currently limited to Asia, the technology is starting to make waves in Europe as well with various multi-megawatt projects in the pipeline.

The Netherlands is building 2 gigawatts of floating solar — Floating Solar Conference - "Usage of inland waters and then the sea inevitable for increasing power"

Why Are EVs The Future For Last-Mile Delivery? | CleanTechnica
Philadelphia Refinery Will Close After Fire, Could Become Renewable Energy Hub | CleanTechnica
Global Offshore Wind To Reach 200 Gigawatts By 2030 | CleanTechnica

The first edition of the Global Wind Energy Council (GWEC) Global Offshore Wind Report revealed that the global offshore wind market has grown by an average of 21% each year since 2013, and has now reached a total capacity of 23 GW. Over 4 GW was installed in both 2017 and 2018, accounting for 8% of total new installations during both years.

When Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez met Greta Thunberg: 'Hope is contagious' | Environment | The Guardian
Greta Thunberg on Twitter: "The UN summit in september and COP25 in december, it looks like a large part of our future will probably be decided in New York and Santiago. I’ve been invited. And I’ve decided to go. The tricky part is getting there without flying. I haven’t solved that yet.. #ClimateBreakdown" / Twitter
It's possible to go by ship, but it takes several days, and freighters are big fuel guzzlers. A sailing ship would do, but one would have to charter a small cruise ship.

How much does it cost to fuel a cargo ship? - Quora
Using some typical numbers like 3 tons per hour (yes, tons) and 15 knots (nautical miles per hour), that's 200 kilograms of fuel per nautical mile or 0.02 miles per gallon. That is nevertheless much better than what a comparable fleet of trucks is likely to do. That number is for something like 50,000 metric tons of cargo, or 1000 ton-miles per gallon. An 18-wheeler semitrailer truck may do 6 mpg for 35 mt, giving 210 ton-miles per gallon. So a freighter does 5 times better than an 18-wheeler.

 

[fromderinside]

I believe bilby can give us how much better things would be if either or both of those modes were powered by nuclear energy. Obviously big is more economical.

 

[lpetrich]

I believe bilby can give us how much better things would be if either or both of those modes were powered by nuclear energy. Obviously big is more economical.

What do you mean?

 

[fromderinside]

I've read about nuclear cars and trucks. We all know about nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers. They are subject to the same approaches of scale as you described for hydrocarbons. Bilby is at least a knowledgable ametuer on nuclear power.

I know I will find his information very enlightening.

 

[bilby]

Nuclear power is excellent for large ships, as the US Navy can attest.

For trucks you are probably better off using electricity, either directly via batteries; Or via the manufacture of synfuels, for example using the Green Freedom concept proposed by the Los Alamos National Laboratory.

http://bioage.typepad.com/greencarcongress/docs/GreenFreedom.pdf

 

[bilby]

As for the OP topic, it seems that Germany has started to finally realise it's banging its head against a wall.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/germany-nuclear-power-by-hans-werner-sinn-2019-05

 

[steve_bank]

Watched a news segment on a guy who started a commercial wind farm. Wrote a book called Superpower. By his estimates alternative energy distributed where it fits will top out at about 80% of demand. This is predicated on a grid designed to acomadte distributed sources.

He also says wind is now cheaper than coal.

In the 50s people thought all they had to do was scale up a nuclear submarine reactor, and they were wrong. Back then utilities said nuclear power would be so cheap it would not be metered.

Three Mile Island effectively ended nuclear power growth in the USA.

 

[bilby]

Watched a news segment on a guy who started a commercial wind farm. Wrote a book called Superpower. By his estimates alternative energy distributed where it fits will top out at about 80% of demand. This is predicated on a grid designed to acomadte distributed sources.

So it's predicated on something you don't have, don't have a plan to get, and can't possibly afford. Good luck with that.

He also says wind is now cheaper than coal.

That's an apples to oranges comparison, so it's not even wrong.

Energy is a service. Pretending that it can be priced as a commodity is a recipe for confusion - and confusion is only a good thing for the side of an argument that is in the wrong, which is why wind and solar promoters are so keen on it.

In the 50s people thought all they had to do was scale up a nuclear submarine reactor,

No, they didn't.

and they were wrong. Back then utilities said nuclear power would be so cheap it would not be metered.

No, they didn't. The source of that claim was made by AEC Chairman Lewis Strauss, of FUSION power.

And 'too cheap to meter' in the 1950s was a lot more expensive than it is today - in the '50s you had to employ a small army of meter readers and clerks to calculate the bills, so the threshold below which it was sensible to just charge a flat connection fee was rather higher than it is today, with smart meters and computerised billing.

Three Mile Island effectively ended nuclear power growth in the USA.

Jane Fonda was more significant - The movie The China Syndrome killed nuclear power. That's a tragedy, as it has cost many millions of lives, and is perhaps the single largest contributor to climate change.

All over a fearmongering work of fiction, and a minor industrial accident that hurt nobody.

But your post here is an excellent summary of how completely gulled the general public have been by anti-nuclear propaganda. You "know" things to be certain facts, that are in reality total nonsense.

You should stop listening to journalists who don't know their Actinides from their Electrodes, and start learning something about the subject at hand - if you want to have a non-useless opinion.