• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

The Remarkable Progress of Renewable Energy

The results would be to make hydrogen generation on site of solar and wind installations economically feasible, off the shelf, instead of increasingly exspensive lithium batteries. Long term projects. These things exist now. What is needed is economies of scale and standardiztion.

Meanwhile, day dreams of large numbers of small nuclear reactors have a problem. Due to the nature of physics, such mini reactors produce far more high level radioactive waste. So that dream may be just that, a dream.
First, my comment of neighborhood fusion power plants was sarcasm as should be obvious since there are no fusion power plants; that is still 30 years away (more sarcasm in case you are unfamiliar with fusion research). But then neighborhood subcritical power stations are absolutely possible today. They were proposed back in the 1970s but rejected out of fear of proliferation of nuclear material. However rather than creating radioactive waste, a subcritical power station would use the spent fuel rods of our current fusion power plants as fuel. Rather than having to store those spent fuel rods, they would be used to generate power for the neighborhood.
And in decades to come, fracking will start getting more expensive and gas also as low hanging fruit, easy to develop deposits tap out.
As the technology of fracking has advanced it has gotten cheaper so far. And the fact that it may get more expensive is not a reason to stop it as long as the reward is greater than the cost. Maybe by the time "deposits tap out" we will finally have cost effective solar power or maybe even fusion reactors on line.
 

Small modular reactors, long touted as the future of nuclear energy, will actually generate more radioactive waste than conventional nuclear power plants, according to research from Stanford and the University of British Columbia.
 

Small modular reactors, long touted as the future of nuclear energy, will actually generate more radioactive waste than conventional nuclear power plants, according to research from Stanford and the University of British Columbia.
I mentioned subcritical power plants not small versions of our current nuclear power plants. Our deep space probes, and I think some of our Martian rovers and military satellites, use even smaller versions of the subcritical power plants that was suggested for neighborhood power stations in the 1970s. They were proposed to use the spent fuel rods from our nuclear power plants that we now have to store.
 
Last edited:
You may not be trying to add to a climate of fear, but you’re most assuredly a victim of it, if you believe your concerns expressed here to be reasonable or rational concerns that need to be taken into consideration.

I was NOT trying to pander to anti-nuke fears. Just the opposite.

Renewables have their own hard-to-measure and controversial costs. Some concerns are ecological. And for intermittent power to be effective, big advances in battery technology are desired. (And the "Let's Go Brandon" ilk is worried about humans getting "mad cow" disease from wind turbines, or such.)

What I am suggesting is that the pros and cons of both paths be carefully assessed, and expected costs quantified, so that the choice becomes a hard-nosed cold-blooded calculation.

In the left corner we have Mohammed Ali.
In the right corner we have a solar panel and a windmill asleep dreaming of a battery.
 
Storage issues for solar are reduced to the point of elimination as the global transmission system expands. This system will likely make use of ultra-high voltage transmission for efficient long-distance transmission (1000s of km).

Doubling the voltage halves the losses. You'll need some insane voltages (which mean huge towers and a substantial safety zone) to get intercontinental transmission efficient.

Realistically, it requires a practical superconductor. So far all the reasonably "high" temperature (still cryogenic) superconductors are not robust enough for power wires.
 
Storage issues for solar are reduced to the point of elimination as the global transmission system expands. This system will likely make use of ultra-high voltage transmission for efficient long-distance transmission (1000s of km).
That looks damned risky. We have two events that should make you very leery of such a plan. We have the Carrington event of 1859 that took out the only widely distributed electrical system at that time, telegraphs. Then there was the solar event that took out the eastern Canadian grid in 1989. What you are proposing (linking all power grids on Earth) could take out the electrical system for the entire world... a return to the early 1800s.
 
Is there any scenario in which solving the eco-energy crisis does not involve significant engineering obstacles? Expanding the electrical transmission system doesn't seem overly difficult in comparison with, say, constructing hundreds of nukes or off-worlding to Mars.

This isn't a city-builder where you can push infinite power through a wire.

Current world power consumption = 58 kwh/day/person. Let's be generous and say our solar panels work 8 hours/day, 7.25kw/person * 7.753 billion people * 2/3 (those in darkness) = 37.47 terawatts that must be shipped.

The most powerful lines currently in use can deliver about 2.2 gigawatts. Thus you need 20,000 world-spanning very high tension towers even before counting transmission losses. The minimum safety distance to prevent arcs is I believe 30 meters (5 meters around each wire, 6 wires/tower, they're usually arranged 3 across, 2 high), you're looking at a band of towers 600 kilometers across.

That 2.2 gigawatt line burns up about 10% of the power per 100 miles--good luck overcoming losses on 10,000+ miles.

The thousands of nuke plants are going to be a lot easier to construct.
 
Storage issues for solar are reduced to the point of elimination as the global transmission system expands. This system will likely make use of ultra-high voltage transmission for efficient long-distance transmission (1000s of km).
That looks damned risky. We have two events that should make you very leery of such a plan. We have the Carrington event of 1859 that took out the only widely distributed electrical system at that time, telegraphs. Then there was the solar event that took out the eastern Canadian grid in 1989. What you are proposing (linking all power grids on Earth) could take out the electrical system for the entire world... a return to the early 1800s.

I expect a Carrington event would be a civilization-ender and it very well might be the answer to the Fermi paradox.
 
Storage issues for solar are reduced to the point of elimination as the global transmission system expands. This system will likely make use of ultra-high voltage transmission for efficient long-distance transmission (1000s of km).
That looks damned risky. We have two events that should make you very leery of such a plan. We have the Carrington event of 1859 that took out the only widely distributed electrical system at that time, telegraphs. Then there was the solar event that took out the eastern Canadian grid in 1989. What you are proposing (linking all power grids on Earth) could take out the electrical system for the entire world... a return to the early 1800s.

I expect a Carrington event would be a civilization-ender and it very well might be the answer to the Fermi paradox.
I don't follow. Humanity survived the Carrington event without even noticing that it happened except for the damage to the telegraph system and the "pretty sky displays". Though certainly a massive enough coronal mass ejection could have been disasterous.
 
Advantages and disadvantages of DC

One major advantage of HVDC is its low cost for transmission of very high power over very long distances. A second great advantage is that the losses are quite low. The total losses in the transmission of power over 2,000 km are in the order of five percent. The third major advantage is that fewer lines are needed with less right of way requirement. As mentioned above, transmission of 12,000 MW can be achieved with two lines using 800 kV HVDC. Transmitting the same power with 800 kV AC would require eight lines. –Ultra high voltage transmission
 
Hydrogen generation and storage is here already, but it is a niche industry and is expensive. The Biden administration has implemented a program with the goal over 10 years to reduce costs of producing and storing hydrogen by 80%.
Goals and plans don’t store electricity.

Oh, get real! Plans and goals have been part of America's way since the 30's with projects like Hoover dam, TVA and rural electification.
Those things are all physical infrastructure. They may have started out as goals and plans, but they stored and transmitted not one single electron until they were realised.
The oil industry was and is heavily subsidized. So was nuclear. This hydrogen program is underway, so sorry about that.
Goals and plans are to storage as fertilised ova are to adult humans. All of the latter started as the former, but having the former is no reason to assume that it will eventually become the latter.
 
Meanwhile, day dreams of large numbers of small nuclear reactors have a problem. Due to the nature of physics, such mini reactors produce far more high level radioactive waste.
That’s simply untrue. And if it were true, so what? High level radioactive waste is just unused fuel awaiting recycling. And it’s never hurt a soul. So why would it matter if there were more of this valuable resource?

And nobody here is suggesting small reactors anyway; I am more than happy to see a smaller number of large reactors.

The climate change issue is too urgent to fuck about with R&D. We have functioning Gen III plant designs already generating electricity at full scale; Let’s build a bunch more of them.
 
Maybe no one here is championing mini-nuclear plants, but TerraPower, a company jointly created by Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are. They have already started building a pilot plant in Wyoming. They recieved $80 million from the government. Their plant will also feature a large molten salt energy storage unit also. Meanwhile in UK, Rolls Royce is planning their small reactor design projects. And there are others. Here in Texas, no nuclear plants are planned. Lots of solar and wind and grid expansion projects are going forward. That is where the money is here.

Meanwhile, natiowide, nuclear waste is accumulating at nuclear sites with no plans in sight to deal with that little problem of permanent disposal of that waste. The Yucca Flats fiasco demonstrates the inability and unwillingness politically to deal competently with the long term nuclear waste problam in the U.S..
 
Maybe no one here is championing mini-nuclear plants, but TerraPower, a company jointly created by Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are. They have already started building a pilot plant in Wyoming. They recieved $80 million from the government. Their plant will also feature a large molten salt energy storage unit also. Meanwhile in UK, Rolls Royce is planning their small reactor design projects. And there are others. Here in Texas, no nuclear plants are planned. Lots of solar and wind and grid expansion projects are going forward. That is where the money is here.

Meanwhile, natiowide, nuclear waste is accumulating at nuclear sites with no plans in sight to deal with that little problem of permanent disposal of that waste. The Yucca Flats fiasco demonstrates the inability and unwillingness politically to deal competently with the long term nuclear waste problam in the U.S..
The nuclear waste "problem" is a propaganda tool.



Nobody's demanding that chemically toxic heavy metals from other industries (including, incidentally, wind turbine and solar panel manufacturing) be sequestered for geological timescales.



The fact is that we already have a completely safe storage system in place - on site storage in dry casks has been used for sixty years without anyone ever being hurt.



It's already far safer than the waste from any other power generation technology.



It's not 'green goo' - it's a boring grey ceramic solid, heavy and insoluble. Even if a cask was broken open, the materials inside aren't going to go anywhere; as long as everyone stays back a few metres, nobody's going to get hurt.



And these casks are inside the perimeter fence of nuclear power plants. Nobody's casually going to stroll up to them uninvited.



The most dangerous isotopes are the ones that decay quickly. They will be gone in a few centuries. The rest isn't particularly hazardous once it's that old - you wouldn't want to eat it, but that's true of almost any industrial waste, and unlike nuclear waste, chemical wastes remain hazardous FOREVER.



Of course, spent nuclear fuel is only hazardous because it's energetic. So the best option is to use it as fuel in fast reactors.



For example, the Elysium MCSFR (as well as various other fast reactors currently in development) can use this 'waste' as fuel, leaving a tiny amount of radioactive material with a lifespan of about three centuries before it decays to background - and then you can just landfill it.



How tiny? Well, currently a lifetimes supply of energy for an American can be generated with an amount of fuel the size of a soda can - and produces the same volume of "waste".



To get a lifetimes supply of energy from a MCSFR, you need an amount of fuel with the volume of four chocolate m&m's.



The waste is bit more - about seven m&m's for an American, over his entire life of energy use. But it halves in activity every thirty or so years, and in three hundred, it's barely radioactive at all.



Every generation technology has a toxic waste problem. Only nuclear power has solved that problem.
 
...
Maybe no one here is championing mini-nuclear plants, but TerraPower, a company jointly created by Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are. They have already started building a pilot plant in Wyoming. They recieved $80 million from the government. Their plant will also feature a large molten salt energy storage unit also. Meanwhile in UK, Rolls Royce is planning their small reactor design projects. And there are others. Here in Texas, no nuclear plants are planned. Lots of solar and wind and grid expansion projects are going forward. That is where the money is here.

Meanwhile, natiowide, nuclear waste is accumulating at nuclear sites with no plans in sight to deal with that little problem of permanent disposal of that waste. The Yucca Flats fiasco demonstrates the inability and unwillingness politically to deal competently with the long term nuclear waste problam in the U.S..
I think that a really big problem with envisioning energy production is that it is driven by fads, propaganda, and politicians, not by engineers with an understanding of energy. Solar panels are great but only in areas with plenty sun and then best for isolated areas with no grid like a lone cabin, on a small island, or on a sailboat. Wind power is great for areas where there is lots of reliable wind. Neither is reliable enough to expect to run the power needs of a nation (Germany tried). And even for isolated private use, some form of energy storage in necessary for it to be at all useful. But politicians love them so there is a hell of a lot of propaganda to stir up public demand for them.

There has been so much propaganda against nuclear that the general population will believe almost any "we are all going to die" scenario that is offered to oppose it. However, the French love nuclear power and they don't glow in the dark.

The subcritical nuclear power systems I mentioned (and was proposed in the 1970's) use as fuel the nuclear waste that you are so worked up over having to store. Why store it when it could be "stored" in such a system and be producing power? The Curiosity rover on Mars uses a mini-version of the system for its power and so does the Voyager missions. (No battery, hydrogen, etc. energy storage system needed)

Geothermal is a damned good, clean, reliable power source used in several places around the world where there is easy access to the Earth's heat. There is very little work however on developing the technology for drilling deep holes to reach that heat so geothermal power could be produced almost anywhere. (No battery, hydrogen, etc. energy storage needed)
 
Last edited:
"Best in area with no grid"? Last year in Texas solar accouned for 4% of renewable energy. This year 7%. We have some major solar projects being built in West Texas and New Mexico to supply more solar power and more grid projects to acces the energy created. Big solar is here. And big solar is now a player in California and elsewhere.

Never let those who say it can't be done stop those who are doing it.
 
"Best in area with no grid"? Last year in Texas solar accouned for 4% of renewable energy. This year 7%. We have some major solar projects being built in West Texas and New Mexico to supply more solar power and more grid projects to acces the energy created. Big solar is here. And big solar is now a player in California and elsewhere.

Never let those who say it can't be done stop those who are doing it.
Who are not even reaching 10% of ‘doing it’.

The only state or national scale grids to achieve Carbon Dioxide emissions routinely below 100gCO2eq/kWh are those that are close to 100% Hydro, nuclear, or a combination of those two.

Propaganda is cheap. Bragging about things you hope to achieve is easy. But actually keeping the lights on for a month, much less a year, with 100gCO2eq/kWh or less, is something no large area or large population has ever done with more than 20% wind + solar, or indeed with less than 80% nuclear + hydro.

And that’s not for want of money, effort or time; Just ask the Germans.
 
At peak, Texas now can get up to 25% of electric needs from wind and solar. And more solar and wind projects are under way. Last year in the U.S. 500,000 homes had solar systems installed. There is that also.
 
Back
Top Bottom