The respecting of irrespectable beliefs

[Learner]

I had a phone chat with a family member who is very caring and helpful, but just also holds very conservative religious views that are exactly what I oppose. Our conversation basically ended with her making a plea to her god to stop making me suffer as much as it has already been making me suffer, as a sign of its kindness and goodness. ??? I love the woman, just as much I reject her cultish and repulsive thinking. How can you show respect for a person, while not showing respect for this major part of her personality?

Brian

She's unaware that her behavior is 100% emotionally based and not based on observation and reason. So there's not much you can do to affect it. You will simply have to make your peace with it, and make the best of the situation.

To me religious belief is a kind of insanity that allows some people to continue to understand their world and therefore continue to survive. It's just a form of pretending in the end. I'm certain that in the future it will disappear from the species. Consider yourself ahead of your time.

If not the religion could it be possible for you (plural) at least to respect the person independant of his or her beliefs?

Then there is the example like the issue of an individual's sexuality i.e. the LGBT's which is apparently supposed to be respected being that this "affection" is also stemmed on the 100'% emotional basis too - which obviously means not by the same observation and reason. Is this also an insanity of a different form?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Then there is the example like the issue of an individual's sexuality i.e. the LGBT's which is apparently supposed to be respected being that this "affection" ...

I think you mean 'affectation,' maybe?

 

[Learner]

1 rep. Didn't think of that.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

She's unaware that her behavior is 100% emotionally based and not based on observation and reason. So there's not much you can do to affect it. You will simply have to make your peace with it, and make the best of the situation.

To me religious belief is a kind of insanity that allows some people to continue to understand their world and therefore continue to survive. It's just a form of pretending in the end. I'm certain that in the future it will disappear from the species. Consider yourself ahead of your time.

If not the religion could it be possible for you (plural) at least to respect the person independant of his or her beliefs?

Then there is the example like the issue of an individual's sexuality i.e. the LGBT's which is apparently supposed to be respected being that this "affection" is also stemmed on the 100'% emotional basis too - which obviously means not by the same observation and reason. Is this also an insanity of a different form?

Of course you can respect the person. I respect kids who play with baby dolls and make them talk, I actually enjoy their company. If people who think there really are magic sky people would not attempt - sometimes successfully - to impose their behavior on me I would not be concerned at all. Kids outgrow baby doll talk. Why don't adults outgrow magic sky people talk? Sure fascinates me. Maybe in the end we'll discover that religious behavior is nothing more than an immune system response, same as we now know about schizophrenia. I hope I live to see the day.

 

[Brian63]

Keith pointed out above how some fundies do not think atheists even exist (we are really suppressing belief in the god). Even others though acknowledge that atheists exist, but they still have *phenomenally wrong ideas* about those atheists, who we are, what we believe, how we behave, how we interact, how we work, how we play, how we have good days and bad days like anyone else, what we feel, etc. The religions promote such incredibly wrong ideas about us, and tell everyone that atheists are really evil, stupid, dishonest, arrogant, self-worshiping, immoral, hateful scumbags of the universe. Those people need to know that atheists really do exist, and we are not the cartoonish characters that we are portrayed as being. We tend to be pretty normal and regular people once you get to know us, and we are atheists because we have some disagreements, questions, and different beliefs about religious, philosophical, and life issues.

Namely, they need to learn that atheists exist, and also that it is OK to be an atheist. Communities, like this message board and its members, helped me so much in alleviating my psychological stress so many years ago. I thought I was alone in thinking some of the things I did, but then just observing and engaging with others argue against religious believers and their poor arguments were a huge help for me. I realized it was OK to not believe in any god, that it was okay to use the label of "atheist" to describe myself, then later I also got the courage to publicly "come out of the atheist closet" too.

Brian

 

[Keith&Co.]

Okay, cool.

Now, are they really demanding that you respect their sexuality? Or respect the individual as having a right to be the one who determines what their sexual identity is?

Like, for an extreme example, I would not respect pedophilia. But if an employee asked for an afternoon off to go to their pedophilia therapy, I'd respect that they had that condition and they need/deserve treatment. Respecting the individual apart from the condition. As you suggest.


Also, would you be comfortable if someone suggest that your faith in Jesus was merely an affectation? Dismissing how you truly feel, or the reasons you feel that way, with a term that suggests it's no more a part of you than using a cigarette holder or wearing a top hat?

 

[Lion IRC]

...We have to diminish the auto-respect that religious beliefs receive

You (plural) don't have to do anything.

But on behalf of religions folks I'd like to say thanks for all the "auto-respect" you guys have extended to us.

 

[OLDMAN]

...We have to diminish the auto-respect that religious beliefs receive

You (plural) don't have to do anything.

But on behalf of religions folks I'd like to say thanks for all the "auto-respect" you guys have extended to us.

People who have fear of the supernatural do not need respect. They need to be taught not to fear.

 

[sharon45]

You (plural) don't have to do anything.

But on behalf of religions folks I'd like to say thanks for all the "auto-respect" you guys have extended to us.

People who have fear of the supernatural do not need respect. They need to be taught not to fear.

Then the religious will just try to turn it around claiming that their belief is only about love, and atheists are honestly the ones who are afraid.

 

[Brian63]

...We have to diminish the auto-respect that religious beliefs receive

You (plural) don't have to do anything.

But on behalf of religions folks I'd like to say thanks for all the "auto-respect" you guys have extended to us.

You really should cut down on that alcohol, Lion IRC. See a physician too. Something is not right up in your head, and you should try to have it diagnosed and treated the best you can.

Brian

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Communities, like this message board and its members, helped me so much in alleviating my psychological stress so many years ago. I thought I was alone in thinking some of the things I did, but then just observing and engaging with others argue against religious believers and their poor arguments were a huge help for me. I realized it was OK to not believe in any god, that it was okay to use the label of "atheist" to describe myself, then later I also got the courage to publicly "come out of the atheist closet" too.

Brian

Ditto that.

And the next time anyone gives you gup about being atheist, tell them you practice the religion of the state, constitutional atheism.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I had a phone chat with a family member who is very caring and helpful, but just also holds very conservative religious views that are exactly what I oppose. Our conversation basically ended with her making a plea to her god to stop making me suffer as much as it has already been making me suffer, as a sign of its kindness and goodness. ??? I love the woman, just as much I reject her cultish and repulsive thinking. How can you show respect for a person, while not showing respect for this major part of her personality?

Brian

She's unaware that her behavior is 100% emotionally based and not based on observation and reason. So there's not much you can do to affect it. You will simply have to make your peace with it, and make the best of the situation.

To me religious belief is a kind of insanity that allows some people to continue to understand their world and therefore continue to survive. It's just a form of pretending in the end. I'm certain that in the future it will disappear from the species. Consider yourself ahead of your time.

I'd argue that my atheist beliefs (or rather non-belief in God) is emotionally based as well. What sets me apart from her isn't necessarily intelligence nor is it astute sense of observation. I just have a brain that constantly questions and tries to work shit out. I can't turn that off. If a belief I have comes up against something that doesn't feel right, my brain will keep bringing it up until I get resolution. I don't like that feeling. But it's not my rational faculties making me an atheist. It's still just my emotions. I think most people are about as able as me to work out the problems with Christian theology. Because the faulty logic in Christian theology is so fundamental. I think religious people like the contradictions. To them it creates a mystery. I think they're attracted to that. To me that mystery is like drinking soap. Makes me run away.... for emotional reasons.

I'm sure there's a million and one ways to be emotionally satisfied with theism. This is just one way

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

She's unaware that her behavior is 100% emotionally based and not based on observation and reason. So there's not much you can do to affect it. You will simply have to make your peace with it, and make the best of the situation.

To me religious belief is a kind of insanity that allows some people to continue to understand their world and therefore continue to survive. It's just a form of pretending in the end. I'm certain that in the future it will disappear from the species. Consider yourself ahead of your time.

I'd argue that my atheist beliefs (or rather non-belief in God) is emotionally based as well. What sets me apart from her isn't necessarily intelligence nor is it astute sense of observation. I just have a brain that constantly questions and tries to work shit out. I can't turn that off. If a belief I have comes up against something that doesn't feel right, my brain will keep bringing it up until I get resolution. I don't like that feeling. But it's not my rational faculties making me an atheist. It's still just my emotions. I think most people are about as able as me to work out the problems with Christian theology. Because the faulty logic in Christian theology is so fundamental. I think religious people like the contradictions. To them it creates a mystery. I think they're attracted to that. To me that mystery is like drinking soap. Makes me run away.... for emotional reasons.

I'm sure there's a million and one ways to be emotionally satisfied with theism. This is just one way

And of course that's the same reason most of us in the US embrace Santa and the Tooth Fairy. But then we intellectually mature and realize these things are pretend, the initial reason for the change being we meet people who think similarly based on observation and experience.

Magic space people interested in aspects of our lives just like Santa and the Tooth Fairy are intellectually and emotionally just as absurd, regardless how ritualistically or traditionally satisfying.

It's emotionally satisfying and restorative to pretend. Fact. Magic space people are just as real as Santa. Fact. People continue to pretend into adulthood about magic space people because it's emotionally satisfying. Fact.

Some people move on like they did after Santa. Fact. Some people lack the ability and the desire to move on like they did after Santa. Fact. These facts don't matter to lots of people. Fact.

 

[funinspace]

It's emotionally satisfying and restorative to pretend. Fact. Magic space people are just as real as Santa. Fact. People continue to pretend into adulthood about magic space people because it's emotionally satisfying. Fact.

That is so 19th century. It's more about magic 5th dimension (or alt-universe) people in the 21st century

 

[sharon45]

She's unaware that her behavior is 100% emotionally based and not based on observation and reason. So there's not much you can do to affect it. You will simply have to make your peace with it, and make the best of the situation.

To me religious belief is a kind of insanity that allows some people to continue to understand their world and therefore continue to survive. It's just a form of pretending in the end. I'm certain that in the future it will disappear from the species. Consider yourself ahead of your time.

I'd argue that my atheist beliefs (or rather non-belief in God) is emotionally based as well. What sets me apart from her isn't necessarily intelligence nor is it astute sense of observation. I just have a brain that constantly questions and tries to work shit out. I can't turn that off. If a belief I have comes up against something that doesn't feel right, my brain will keep bringing it up until I get resolution. I don't like that feeling. But it's not my rational faculties making me an atheist. It's still just my emotions. I think most people are about as able as me to work out the problems with Christian theology. Because the faulty logic in Christian theology is so fundamental. I think religious people like the contradictions. To them it creates a mystery. I think they're attracted to that. To me that mystery is like drinking soap. Makes me run away.... for emotional reasons.

It is a partnership of emotion and intellect, with the emotion needed to care and the intellect to know why you continue to care. As a child I was told that killing people was wrong; intellect. Then I hear about God killing people in the Bible; emotional, but also swinging back to what I originally heard about killing people being wrong; intellect.

 

[Brian63]

Namely, they need to learn that atheists exist, and also that it is OK to be an atheist.

One other important point to note is that theists, and especially fundamentalists, need to learn that not only do atheists exist in some kind off distant data point in surveys or some kind of strange people just being preached about on Sunday mornings. Atheists do not just exist as some kind of foreign tribe of people. Instead, they already know us personally. They interact with us already. Atheists are in part their neighbors, their friends they get along with, the coworkers they do not get along with, their children, the actors they enjoy watching on television, their doctors that take care of them, etc. When they then go to their churches on Sunday and hear about how self-centered, immoral, and depraved atheists are, they then will compare those statements to their own firsthand and personal experiences, and begin to push back on some of the other crap they are being fed. That marks huge progress.

Brian

 

[sharon45]

Atheists do not just exist as some kind of foreign tribe of people. Instead, they already know us personally. They interact with us already. Atheists are in part their neighbors, their friends they get along with, the coworkers they do not get along with, their children, the actors they enjoy watching on television, their doctors that take care of them, etc.

Then believers could think of this as akin to a disease hell-bent on maliciously infiltrating and eventually destroying every aspect of a normal Christian life.

 

[Tigers!]

Namely, they need to learn that atheists exist, and also that it is OK to be an atheist.

One other important point to note is that theists, and especially fundamentalists, need to learn that not only do atheists exist in some kind off distant data point in surveys or some kind of strange people just being preached about on Sunday mornings. Atheists do not just exist as some kind of foreign tribe of people. Instead, they already know us personally. They interact with us already. Atheists are in part their neighbors, their friends they get along with, the coworkers they do not get along with, their children, the actors they enjoy watching on television, their doctors that take care of them, etc. When they then go to their churches on Sunday and hear about how self-centered, immoral, and depraved atheists are, they then will compare those statements to their own firsthand and personal experiences, and begin to push back on some of the other crap they are being fed. That marks huge progress.

Brian

You must have some interesting churches over there. I've never heard of atheists described like that at any church I have ever attended.
Must be a US thing.
I have always known that atheists encompass the full spectrum of behaivour just like any other group of people.

 

[Brian63]

It is especially bad on fundamentalist Christian message boards on the internet, like the ones that are especially theologically conservative (like oriented to the Rapture) and also the ones that are more politically and socially focused. They just demonize, both literally and metaphorically, us atheists and repeatedly state how self-worshiping and stupid and depraved we are. They do not realize that we are right around them already and they have positive close social interactions with us already, and so would know that those vile claims are just not true. As long as we can be separated out and treated as a remote outsider group off in the distance though, it is easier to sustain those false claims about us.

Brian

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

It is especially bad on fundamentalist Christian message boards on the internet, like the ones that are especially theologically conservative (like oriented to the Rapture) and also the ones that are more politically and socially focused. They just demonize, both literally and metaphorically, us atheists and repeatedly state how self-worshiping and stupid and depraved we are. They do not realize that we are right around them already and they have positive close social interactions with us already, and so would know that those vile claims are just not true. As long as we can be separated out and treated as a remote outsider group off in the distance though, it is easier to sustain those false claims about us.

Brian

These folks have never socialized with atheists or muslims or liberals or whomever they're demonizing. They're racists that need to decondition. Likely they won't, however as they probably lack the a larger intellectual perspective. There's no way you can move around among a diversity of people and continue to hold such prejudices.

Sure, I think believing in invisible sky people is dopey, childish and provincial, but I know and interact with lots of people who do.