The Right to Bear Arms

[Rhea]

The intent of this topic is to discuss NON-firearm weapons.
This will necessarily include some comparisons to firearms and firearms laws, but if you want to talk about firearms to advocate for or against, that's a huge topic and starting new threads is free. This thread is to talk about non-firearms weapons.


This thread is spawned from this reader comment on the blog electoral-vote.com

And speaking of confiscating weapons, I have taught people to use hand weapons for a number of years. Many such weapons in a number of states are illegal to carry; nunchaku, sais, shurikens, and swords are some examples. Some states prohibit knife blades longer than six inches. Any of these weapons require some expertise and training to use, but I submit no more so than a firearm (the dexterity required for many of these is rather exaggerated). The biggest difference I can see is that it's much harder to accidentally injure another person or oneself fatally—a really bad mistake using nunchaku might result in a broken bone or concussion, but it's rather unlikely to kill you, or anyone else. An error using a sai might "put an eye out" if one is particularly clumsy. Firearms, on the other hand, accidentally kill thousands of people every year, and sometimes from some distance away. The logic of this differential treatment escapes me, but perhaps someone can explain it.

So let's talk about this. Why aren't there big organizations protesting the limits on owning these weapons?

My first pre-discussion theories are two:

1. There is not a huge profit margin, and so there is not mega backing from manufacturers seeking to make money off of the increased sales that controversy brings
2. They require skill, so any old yahoo who thinks he's tough cannot pick one up and be any more dangerous than he was before he owned one.

Should these weapons be allowed? Is it a good idea for citizens to be versed in their use? Do they have inherent drawbacks or dangers or limitations?
Lets talk about weapons and the law (but not guns).

 

[crazyfingers]

Background checks!!





Oops. Couldn't resist. I'll go away now.

 

[ZiprHead]

I always carry a small pocket tool with knife and also a 4 inch folding lock back knife that I can open with the flick of my index finger.

I assume there is no NNA (National Nunchaku Association) to funnel Russian money to the Trump campaign.

 

[TV and credit cards]

What are the accident stats with regards to the use of such non-firearm weapons? I doubt any are kept. I recall a couple friends from childhood who were big into the whole Bruce Lee scene. I would say the most prevalent non-lethal accident with these weapons was the self-inflicted nunchucks to the back of the head.
Plenty of dangerous (thrill seeking) hobbies to have. You're an adult. Knock yourself out. Plenty of stupid parents allowing their too young children onto ATVs, play with fireworks, etc. This is another matter. Children should be protected from their parents.

Personally I have a hatchet. It's great for home protection (or so I imagine) and root ball removal (proven). I am mindful to keep my fingers off the sheath until I am ready to use it.

 

[Bomb#20]

I once got empaneled for jury selection in the case of a little old lady who was charged with carrying a concealed billy club. The whole thing seemed pretty ridiculous to me considering how much less lethal it was than the handguns concealed weapons laws are designed for, and how unlikely it was that she'd ever use the thing other than defensively. I don't know which lawyer peremptorily challenged me but I expect the prosecutor picked up on my misgivings about judging only the facts and taking the law as given to me and following orders like a good little soldier. Never found out whether she was convicted, or whether the item in question really was a billy club or just some random piece of wood the state categorized as a billy club, or whether there was more to the story and she'd hit a cop with it, or whether she was only arrested for it in the first place because she was black...

 

[Rhea]

I once got empaneled for jury selection in the case of a little old lady who was charged with carrying a concealed billy club. The whole thing seemed pretty ridiculous to me considering how much less lethal it was than the handguns concealed weapons laws are designed for, and how unlikely it was that she'd ever use the thing other than defensively. I don't know which lawyer peremptorily challenged me but I expect the prosecutor picked up on my misgivings about judging only the facts and taking the law as given to me and following orders like a good little soldier. Never found out whether she was convicted, or whether the item in question really was a billy club or just some random piece of wood the state categorized as a billy club, or whether there was more to the story and she'd hit a cop with it, or whether she was only arrested for it in the first place because she was black...

I'd be interested to know what happened, too!

 

[crazyfingers]

What are the accident stats with regards to the use of such non-firearm weapons? I doubt any are kept. I recall a couple friends from childhood who were big into the whole Bruce Lee scene. I would say the most prevalent non-lethal accident with these weapons was the self-inflicted nunchucks to the back of the head.
Plenty of dangerous (thrill seeking) hobbies to have. You're an adult. Knock yourself out. Plenty of stupid parents allowing their too young children onto ATVs, play with fireworks, etc. This is another matter. Children should be protected from their parents.

Personally I have a hatchet. It's great for home protection (or so I imagine) and root ball removal (proven). I am mindful to keep my fingers off the sheath until I am ready to use it.

I've been thinking about so many household items that are tools but could be weapons. We have all kinds of food cutting knives from 4 inches to more than a foot. They are kitchen tools but could be weapons.

I also have an ax and hatchet. They are mainly for splitting wood but they could be lethal.

I also have these two items that are family heirlooms from the late 1890's.

Are they weapons or are they antique heirlooms? Is it legal for me to have them? I really don't know but they were owned by my great grandfather from the Philippine insurrection and his naval career.

A Barong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barong_(sword)


Dress uniform naval sward (never sharpened)




Having just looked it up, Massachusetts has knife laws related to carrying them off property. I guess my Barong and Sward are OK so long as I don't take them for a walk down the street.
https://www.knifeden.com/knife-laws-in-massachusetts/

There are carry laws and knives can be illegal if they are used not as tools but as weapons.

 

[Jarhyn]

So, there are certain places that are reserved to peaceful gathering, while allowing clear bearing of arms.

Let's look at the Renaissance Festivals, for instance.

At the renfests of the world, there is a common rule: all weapons are to be bonded in peace.

There are certain weapons that cannot be bonded so: heavy bludgeoning weapons such as maces and hammers of a non-foam variety. Should we allow people to go about clearly armed with a weapon designed for lethality regardless of quarter?

I also have mixed feelings about long stabbing weapons such as long blades and long stiletto knives in the wounds they create and the ease with which those wounds can be lethally made. I would not want to see it made easy to fill someone full of holes.

What is to stop coordinated gangs of people armed with axes or hatchets roaming the streets?

I don't generally like the idea of open melee on the streets.

That said, I would love to have a nice shillelagh to put the hurt on if someone decides to get cheeky.

What is necessary is common ground for how much right we believe people ought have to be able to easily put holes in someone in public.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

So let's talk about this. Why aren't there big organizations protesting the limits on owning these weapons?

My first pre-discussion theories are two:

1. There is not a huge profit margin, and so there is not mega backing from manufacturers seeking to make money off of the increased sales that controversy brings
2. They require skill, so any old yahoo who thinks he's tough cannot pick one up and be any more dangerous than he was before he owned one.

Require more skill? I wouldn't agree that they require more skill. They're not as popular as firearms so that would be my guess as to why they don't have their champions and defenders.

 

[Jayjay]

I always carry a small pocket tool with knife and also a 4 inch folding lock back knife that I can open with the flick of my index finger.

I assume there is no NNA (National Nunchaku Association) to funnel Russian money to the Trump campaign.

The N_ⁱN_^jA works in the shadows, until it is ready to strike.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I once got empaneled for jury selection in the case of a little old lady who was charged with carrying a concealed billy club. The whole thing seemed pretty ridiculous to me considering how much less lethal it was than the handguns concealed weapons laws are designed for, and how unlikely it was that she'd ever use the thing other than defensively. I don't know which lawyer peremptorily challenged me but I expect the prosecutor picked up on my misgivings about judging only the facts and taking the law as given to me and following orders like a good little soldier. Never found out whether she was convicted, or whether the item in question really was a billy club or just some random piece of wood the state categorized as a billy club, or whether there was more to the story and she'd hit a cop with it, or whether she was only arrested for it in the first place because she was black...

I think most such weapons would be far more likely to be carried by a bad guy than by a good guy. A little old lady isn't going to stop an attacker with a billy club other than by being very lucky. Likewise, pretty much any user-powered weapon is going to favor the thug over the defender and hence their presence is a negative for society (other than knives--they're often tools rather than weapons. Things like axes also--but you don't walk around with an axe, you only bring out an axe when you have something you want to chop.)

I would change the law somewhat, though--CCW permits should also permit carrying any lesser weapon.

 

[Politesse]

I can only answer reasonably with respect to my own country (the United States).


Why aren't there big organizations protesting the limits on owning these weapons?

There are enthusiast clubs for these sorts of things, they just pale in size and importance next to the behemoth which is the NRA and its sattelite organizations. I think that's part of it. There's also the fact that the use of knives and so forth as actual weapons is something that a lot of Americans would see in somewhat urban/rural terms, if not outright racialized terms. Guns and gun use are strongly associated with rural America and conservative politics in a way that knives (and nunchucks?) are not.


Should these weapons be allowed?

A very clear answer in this case. Yes, if the second amendment applies to anything, it definitely applies to bladed weapons.


Is it a good idea for citizens to be versed in their use?

I would consider the use of knives at the very least to be a very practical skill set, and I would absolutely approve of blade safety as part of basic school curricula. Swordfighting and the like or more in the vein of a hobby, given their limited practical use in the real world (or for anything other than fighting).


Do they have inherent drawbacks or dangers or limitations?

The danger of such weapons should be obvious enough. We fought our wars with them for centuries, and indeed modern fighting still sometimes comes down to army knives once the distance to a combatant has closed. Don't make the mistake of thinking a soldier has to have a gun to be dangerous. Long knives have also featured in many highly publicized terrorist attacks in jurisidctions where guns are difficult for regular citizens to acquire, such as Europe and East Asia. But for the most part swords and thrown weapons became extinct mecause their principle advantage (range) became obsolete with the rise of firearms.


Lets talk about weapons and the law (but not guns).

They should, like all weapons, be legal but not unregulated, and that is indeed the case in every state that I know of.

I don't personally own any bladed weapons, though I did train in their use back in my Boy Scout days. Every once in a while I speculatively peruse the sword case at Scottish Games or Ren Faires, but I have yet to actually succumb to that temptation.

 

[steve_bank]

In the 90s I had a carry permit. I ended up letting it expire. I realized that whithout continual practice I'd likely never get a gun out and on target in a close encounter. Add to that the possibility of hitting an innocent person.

The old Mythbusters show did a segment on drawing a gun. Wearing a holster exposed a man runs at you with a knife. How close can he get with you getting off a shot. It tuned out not very close. Someone 10 to 15 feet away draws a knife and runs at you, odd's are he will get you before you shoot.

Tasers are legal. There are small hand held models you press against someone. There are also bright flashing lights.

For the average person in a city a carry gun is useless.

When I lived in North Idaho in the early 90s I always carried a gun hiking or taking my Jeep in the back country. Two legged critters were a real threat.

Today depending on where I am going I carry pepper spray. I can't drive anymore and I walk or take public transit. We are near a large homeless camp and residents have been assaulted. I also practice with my cane, breaking a knee. I took some training in dealing with a knife.

In the past year I have had three encounters that diffused.

In your home the best weapon is a simple shotgun. Effective, easy to aim, minimal threat to neighbors, and is intimidating. Everyone knows the sound of a shotgun action.

I know someone who carries a collapsible whip. Like a radio antenna. Another resident carries a gun on his ankle, but he would never get it out in time.

There are sticky nets launched from a tube that police can use. I think there are also sticky mats.

I think the blade limit in Seattle is 3.5 inches.

The best defense is awareness of your surroundings. Avoidance.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

https://unbreakableumbrella.com/

Unbreakable self defense umbrella. Street legal everywhere.

 

[Gospel]

I owned a Kitana (not battle sharpened) for about ten minutes that I had won from a local freestyle event back when I lived in Bayshore Long Island NY. The event was on a Saturday from 12 noon to 4pm on W Main St. It was packaged in paper and bubble wrap. Anyhow, I lived about 15 minutes walk from the place and got stopped right around the block from my apartment by the police. This was under Guliani's stop and frisk. Anyhow after giving my ID and having my pockets checked and thousands of questions about where I'm coming from, what's in the package, where I'm going, what's in the package, what's my name, what's in the package, and if I'm into any drugs and other bullshit from officers in unmarked cars. After telling them it's a Katana a thousand times and trying to answer two other officers at the same time I tried explaining that I just won it at the clothing store not far from here & I can show you. They confiscated it without giving me a ticket saying it was illegal and that I should be grateful I'm not being arrested. When asked what do I have to do to get it back they said I'd have to go to the police station in Brentwood on 5th ave to retrieve it (which was not walking distance away). Anyhow, I took the day off work Thursday (Cause that's the soonest I was able to go), took the bus there and when I asked the officer at the front desk they said they have nothing; no records of the stop no records of anything at all & had me fill out a report that obviously got trashed as soon as I left the place because I was given a case number that later no one was able to find in their system.

This thread brought back a memory. Pardon the derail.

 

[crazyfingers]

I owned a Kitana (not battle sharpened) for about ten minutes that I had won from a local freestyle event back when I lived in Bayshore Long Island NY. The event was on a Saturday from 12 noon to 4pm on W Main St. It was packaged in paper and bubble wrap. Anyhow, I lived about 15 minutes walk from the place and got stopped right around the block from my apartment by the police. This was under Guliani's stop and frisk. Anyhow after giving my ID and having my pockets checked and thousands of questions about where I'm coming from, what's in the package, where I'm going, what's in the package, what's my name, what's in the package, and if I'm into any drugs and other bullshit from officers in unmarked cars. After telling them it's a Katana a thousand times and trying to answer two other officers at the same time I tried explaining that I just won it at the clothing store not far from here & I can show you. They confiscated it without giving me a ticket saying it was illegal and that I should be grateful I'm not being arrested. When asked what do I have to do to get it back they said I'd have to go to the police station in Brentwood on 5th ave to retrieve it (which was not walking distance away). Anyhow, I took the day off work Thursday (Cause that's the soonest I was able to go), took the bus there and when I asked the officer at the front desk they said they have nothing; no records of the stop no records of anything at all & had me fill out a report that obviously got trashed as soon as I left the place because I was given a case number that later no one was able to find in their system.

This thread brought back a memory. Pardon the derail.

So you were racially profiled, treated different than perhaps I would have been and then robbed by the cops. That sounds like Guliani's America. Or America. It sucks.

A quick look at NY laws suggest that it's legal to own a sward but not to carry it. The people who you won it from should have informed you and lent you a lock-box.

Still cops suck. They had no reason to stop you personally if it was all packaged up.

 

[Gun Nut]

In the 90s I had a carry permit. I ended up letting it expire. I realized that whithout continual practice I'd likely never get a gun out and on target in a close encounter. Add to that the possibility of hitting an innocent person.

The old Mythbusters show did a segment on drawing a gun. Wearing a holster exposed a man runs at you with a knife. How close can he get with you getting off a shot. It tuned out not very close. Someone 10 to 15 feet away draws a knife and runs at you, odd's are he will get you before you shoot.

Tasers are legal. There are small hand held models you press against someone. There are also bright flashing lights.

For the average person in a city a carry gun is useless.

When I lived in North Idaho in the early 90s I always carried a gun hiking or taking my Jeep in the back country. Two legged critters were a real threat.

Today depending on where I am going I carry pepper spray. I can't drive anymore and I walk or take public transit. We are near a large homeless camp and residents have been assaulted. I also practice with my cane, breaking a knee. I took some training in dealing with a knife.

In the past year I have had three encounters that diffused.

In your home the best weapon is a simple shotgun. Effective, easy to aim, minimal threat to neighbors, and is intimidating. Everyone knows the sound of a shotgun action.

I know someone who carries a collapsible whip. Like a radio antenna. Another resident carries a gun on his ankle, but he would never get it out in time.

There are sticky nets launched from a tube that police can use. I think there are also sticky mats.

I think the blade limit in Seattle is 3.5 inches.

The best defense is awareness of your surroundings. Avoidance.

I have significant related professional experience, and this entire post is accurate and how I would respond... with one minor disagreement...

Everyone knows the sound of a shotgun action.

Bad idea. First of all, keep the shotgun racked, as long as it is very secure (a shotgun that is ready to fire can go off if dropped - unlike most handguns these days which have "drop-proof" actions). You want to be ready ro fire your defense weapon... not ready to get ready to get ready to fire.
Second of all, the sound of a shotgun racking sounds like this, "Hey everybody, I am armed with exactly 2 shells, so come on in ready to spray all of your bullets all over the place."

It should instead sound more like
"what was that!?!?!?"
"That was you getting your guts shot out... you might die, dude. prolly want to get on the floor and let the police maybe save you.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In the 90s I had a carry permit. I ended up letting it expire. I realized that whithout continual practice I'd likely never get a gun out and on target in a close encounter. Add to that the possibility of hitting an innocent person.

The old Mythbusters show did a segment on drawing a gun. Wearing a holster exposed a man runs at you with a knife. How close can he get with you getting off a shot. It tuned out not very close. Someone 10 to 15 feet away draws a knife and runs at you, odd's are he will get you before you shoot.

Tasers are legal. There are small hand held models you press against someone. There are also bright flashing lights.

For the average person in a city a carry gun is useless.

For the average person a carry gun is basically useless against someone who simply intends to kill you. However, killing is usually not the primary objective of the criminal. If you are being confronted by someone with a weapon the primary intent is usually either robbery or rape. Robbers who find you don't have what they want sometimes kill in anger, and robbers who realize their identity was revealed sometimes kill to avoid witnesses, but neither is likely to start out killing you. Likewise, a rapist may kill to avoid witnesses but very few are going to do that before raping.

When I lived in North Idaho in the early 90s I always carried a gun hiking or taking my Jeep in the back country. Two legged critters were a real threat.

Two-legged critters were a substantial threat in the backcountry?? What sort of place did you live??

Today depending on where I am going I carry pepper spray. I can't drive anymore and I walk or take public transit. We are near a large homeless camp and residents have been assaulted. I also practice with my cane, breaking a knee. I took some training in dealing with a knife.

A large homeless camp would make me want to carry.

I know someone who carries a collapsible whip. Like a radio antenna. Another resident carries a gun on his ankle, but he would never get it out in time.

An ankle gun as their primary weapon?! I agree with your assessment.

The best defense is awareness of your surroundings. Avoidance.

For a guy I generally agree. I can understand a woman carrying anywhere.

 

[Gospel]

I owned a Kitana (not battle sharpened) for about ten minutes that I had won from a local freestyle event back when I lived in Bayshore Long Island NY. The event was on a Saturday from 12 noon to 4pm on W Main St. It was packaged in paper and bubble wrap. Anyhow, I lived about 15 minutes walk from the place and got stopped right around the block from my apartment by the police. This was under Guliani's stop and frisk. Anyhow after giving my ID and having my pockets checked and thousands of questions about where I'm coming from, what's in the package, where I'm going, what's in the package, what's my name, what's in the package, and if I'm into any drugs and other bullshit from officers in unmarked cars. After telling them it's a Katana a thousand times and trying to answer two other officers at the same time I tried explaining that I just won it at the clothing store not far from here & I can show you. They confiscated it without giving me a ticket saying it was illegal and that I should be grateful I'm not being arrested. When asked what do I have to do to get it back they said I'd have to go to the police station in Brentwood on 5th ave to retrieve it (which was not walking distance away). Anyhow, I took the day off work Thursday (Cause that's the soonest I was able to go), took the bus there and when I asked the officer at the front desk they said they have nothing; no records of the stop no records of anything at all & had me fill out a report that obviously got trashed as soon as I left the place because I was given a case number that later no one was able to find in their system.

This thread brought back a memory. Pardon the derail.

So you were racially profiled, treated different than perhaps I would have been and then robbed by the cops. That sounds like Guliani's America. Or America. It sucks.

A quick look at NY laws suggest that it's legal to own a sward but not to carry it. The people who you won it from should have informed you and lent you a lock-box.

Still cops suck. They had no reason to stop you personally if it was all packaged up.

Yeah, I already accepted that it was not something I should be carrying around. I even remember admitting to them that I understand where they are coming from and said look at the address on my ID. I'm just around the corner from home & welcomed them to follow me if they wanted to but noooooo. I had to lose a Kitana that day.

 

[Jarhyn]

I owned a Kitana (not battle sharpened) for about ten minutes that I had won from a local freestyle event back when I lived in Bayshore Long Island NY. The event was on a Saturday from 12 noon to 4pm on W Main St. It was packaged in paper and bubble wrap. Anyhow, I lived about 15 minutes walk from the place and got stopped right around the block from my apartment by the police. This was under Guliani's stop and frisk. Anyhow after giving my ID and having my pockets checked and thousands of questions about where I'm coming from, what's in the package, where I'm going, what's in the package, what's my name, what's in the package, and if I'm into any drugs and other bullshit from officers in unmarked cars. After telling them it's a Katana a thousand times and trying to answer two other officers at the same time I tried explaining that I just won it at the clothing store not far from here & I can show you. They confiscated it without giving me a ticket saying it was illegal and that I should be grateful I'm not being arrested. When asked what do I have to do to get it back they said I'd have to go to the police station in Brentwood on 5th ave to retrieve it (which was not walking distance away). Anyhow, I took the day off work Thursday (Cause that's the soonest I was able to go), took the bus there and when I asked the officer at the front desk they said they have nothing; no records of the stop no records of anything at all & had me fill out a report that obviously got trashed as soon as I left the place because I was given a case number that later no one was able to find in their system.

This thread brought back a memory. Pardon the derail.

So you were racially profiled, treated different than perhaps I would have been and then robbed by the cops. That sounds like Guliani's America. Or America. It sucks.

A quick look at NY laws suggest that it's legal to own a sward but not to carry it. The people who you won it from should have informed you and lent you a lock-box.

Still cops suck. They had no reason to stop you personally if it was all packaged up.

Yeah, I already accepted that it was not something I should be carrying around. I even remember admitting to them that I understand where they are coming from and said look at the address on my ID. I'm just around the corner from home & welcomed them to follow me if they wanted to but noooooo. I had to lose a Kitana that day.

So, condolences on the loss of your award.

That said, a wall hanger is not really a big loss. Though... If I ever fall into ownership of a nice wall-hanger I'll send you a message.

I recall a conversation I had with my unstable ex-wife about how despite the fact that it is ostensibly legal to carry a sword where we lived, that her doing it was not a good idea, mostly for the same reason the cops stole yours.

Needless to say, if I hadn't stopped her, her losing my favorite falcata would have been the least of her worries.