The rise of Incels

[Metaphor]

Why should lack of ability impair someone's desire to play a musical instrument? I never said anyone had be proficient at it.

What a bizarre statement to make. Part of the beauty of creation is that you create something good. And part of the appeal of (male) musicians to females is that they are producing good art.

 

[bilby]

 

[Swammerdami]

And don't forget lesbians. When I was single you would not believe the number of lesbians I encountered.

I don't see a smiley-face. Surely you know the "Lesbian" excuse is often a ploy to turn off would-be suitors.

I've deleted the attribution from the following quote, for fear that with all the nesting I'd get it wrong.

It's like color vision--it doesn't matter how much I study, I can't read the color codes on electronics because my color vision is flawed.
...
Personally, I suspect that a lot of the incels are on the autism spectrum.

Incels should seek out Miss Violet? Am I dating myself if I recall the politically incorrect "Bad Boys Rape Our Young Girls But Violet Gives Willingly"?

 

[Bronzeage]

Why should lack of ability impair someone's desire to play a musical instrument? I never said anyone had be proficient at it.

What a bizarre statement to make. Part of the beauty of creation is that you create something good. And part of the appeal of (male) musicians to females is that they are producing good art.

Are you making the claim you understand the elements of attraction between men and women? If so, please tell us how good the art must be to get a girlfriend. I'm sure a 1 to 10 scale would be sufficient.

 

[Metaphor]

Why should lack of ability impair someone's desire to play a musical instrument? I never said anyone had be proficient at it.

What a bizarre statement to make. Part of the beauty of creation is that you create something good. And part of the appeal of (male) musicians to females is that they are producing good art.

Are you making the claim you understand the elements of attraction between men and women? If so, please tell us how good the art must be to get a girlfriend. I'm sure a 1 to 10 scale would be sufficient.

Did you have to think about this misrepresentation of my statement, or did it come to you easily?

Do you think a man who is not proficient (that is, not competent or skilled) at playing a musical instrument is more desirable to a woman than a man who doesn't attempt to learn any instrument?

Lots of men get girlfriends without producing any art at all. But if you are relying on producing art to get you a girlfriend, you ought produce something decent. I think it's very bad advice to tell men having artistic impulses without artistic talent or skill will make them more desirable to women.

 

[Swammerdami]

Might there be a political component to the incel "problem"?

In the 2016 election 52% of men voted for Trump compared with 41% for Clinton; while among women this was reversed: 39% for Trump and 54% for Clinton. That's a very big difference. When restricted to White voters, the difference was even starker: Among white men, Trump led by a whopping almost 2-to-1 margin (62% to 32%) while white women were almost evenly split, 47% to 45%. If partisan alignment is a factor in romantic attraction, left-wing men and right-wing women would be "in the driver's seats."

50+ years ago, when War protesting was the rage, a slogan was "Girls say 'Yes' to boys who say 'No.'"

Could this be part of the problem? Hot Bolshevist babes are not attracted to greed-oriented empathy-lacking racists opposed to Women's Choice? Yes, there are millions of women who did vote for Trump, but maybe even right-wing incels find AOC more lust-worthy than they find MTG. (I'll admit that I can't think of a right-wing female politician even as "hot" as Nancy Pelosi!)

On the Other Message Board, one incel told us that he deserved a taxpayer-funded sex robot! There was no smiley-face, but might he have been a right-wing incel being sarcastic about the welfare state?

 

[Bronzeage]

Why should lack of ability impair someone's desire to play a musical instrument? I never said anyone had be proficient at it.

What a bizarre statement to make. Part of the beauty of creation is that you create something good. And part of the appeal of (male) musicians to females is that they are producing good art.

Are you making the claim you understand the elements of attraction between men and women? If so, please tell us how good the art must be to get a girlfriend. I'm sure a 1 to 10 scale would be sufficient.

Did you have to think about this misrepresentation of my statement, or did it come to you easily?

Do you think a man who is not proficient (that is, not competent or skilled) at playing a musical instrument is more desirable to a woman than a man who doesn't attempt to learn any instrument?

Lots of men get girlfriends without producing any art at all. But if you are relying on producing art to get you a girlfriend, you ought produce something decent. I think it's very bad advice to tell men having artistic impulses without artistic talent or skill will make them more desirable to women.

I think you don't actually understand anything about why a woman finds any particular man attractive, so it was silly of me to pursue the discussion any further.

However. I will share one tip with you. Women are really attracted to poets and it doesn't matter if they have any poetic talent at all.

 

[Metaphor]

I think you don't actually understand anything about why a woman finds any particular man attractive, so it was silly of me to pursue the discussion any further.

However. I will share one tip with you. Women are really attracted to poets and it doesn't matter if they have any poetic talent at all.

What women want in a man is not a secret and those things have already been discussed on this thread.

I simply challenged your notion that "anyone" can learn to play a musical instrument. It's just not true.

Also, I am friends with a number of heterosexual women and the poetry writing abilities (or lack thereof) of men hasn't come up.

 

[Bronzeage]

I think you don't actually understand anything about why a woman finds any particular man attractive, so it was silly of me to pursue the discussion any further.

However. I will share one tip with you. Women are really attracted to poets and it doesn't matter if they have any poetic talent at all.

What women want in a man is not a secret and those things have already been discussed on this thread.

I simply challenged your notion that "anyone" can learn to play a musical instrument. It's just not true.

Also, I am friends with a number of heterosexual women and the poetry writing abilities (or lack thereof) of men hasn't come up.

Okay, to recap how we got here:

Claim: Women are attracted to men who have money.
Challenge: I know musicians who have girlfriends.
Counter claim: Women are attracted to musicians.
Claim: Anyone can learn to play a musical instrument.
Challenge: Women are attracted to good musicians and not all men can be good enough.

This brings us back to the question of what women find attractive, which thanks to this thread, is not a secret.

I claim anyone can learn play a musical instrument well enough to attract a woman, just as anyone can accumulate enough money to do the same.

As for poetry, if you're expecting a woman to say, "If you want some of this, cough up some verse, Ginsburg", that's not how it works.

Use this one. I won't mind.

You are my light and eyes
For with you I see no shadows.

After that, it's yours to lose.

 

[Metaphor]

I think you don't actually understand anything about why a woman finds any particular man attractive, so it was silly of me to pursue the discussion any further.

However. I will share one tip with you. Women are really attracted to poets and it doesn't matter if they have any poetic talent at all.

What women want in a man is not a secret and those things have already been discussed on this thread.

I simply challenged your notion that "anyone" can learn to play a musical instrument. It's just not true.

Also, I am friends with a number of heterosexual women and the poetry writing abilities (or lack thereof) of men hasn't come up.

Okay, to recap how we got here:

Claim: Women are attracted to men who have money.
Challenge: I know musicians who have girlfriends.
Counter claim: Women are attracted to musicians.
Claim: Anyone can learn to play a musical instrument.
Challenge: Women are attracted to good musicians and not all men can be good enough.

This brings us back to the question of what women find attractive, which thanks to this thread, is not a secret.

I claim anyone can learn play a musical instrument well enough to attract a woman, just as anyone can accumulate enough money to do the same.

Well, I think the bolded claim is unevidenced and also wrong.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And don't forget lesbians. When I was single you would not believe the number of lesbians I encountered.

I don't see a smiley-face. Surely you know the "Lesbian" excuse is often a ploy to turn off would-be suitors.

I've deleted the attribution from the following quote, for fear that with all the nesting I'd get it wrong.

It's like color vision--it doesn't matter how much I study, I can't read the color codes on electronics because my color vision is flawed.
...
Personally, I suspect that a lot of the incels are on the autism spectrum.

Incels should seek out Miss Violet? Am I dating myself if I recall the politically incorrect "Bad Boys Rape Our Young Girls But Violet Gives Willingly"?

Knowing the colors doesn't mean I can read them. I was presenting that as an example of something that can't be overcome by trying. Is that band blue or violet? Is it red or orange? With a reference right there to compare them against I can tell them apart, but faced with a lone band I can't reliably tell those pairs apart. And anything dot-coded, forget about it. Likewise, I can't crimp Ethernet because to me two of the wires look the same.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Might there be a political component to the incel "problem"?

In the 2016 election 52% of men voted for Trump compared with 41% for Clinton; while among women this was reversed: 39% for Trump and 54% for Clinton. That's a very big difference. When restricted to White voters, the difference was even starker: Among white men, Trump led by a whopping almost 2-to-1 margin (62% to 32%) while white women were almost evenly split, 47% to 45%. If partisan alignment is a factor in romantic attraction, left-wing men and right-wing women would be "in the driver's seats."

Interesting point--I wouldn't be surprised if that's part of it. I wouldn't say it's so much a factor in romantic attraction as a cause of not wanting to be with the person regardless of physical attraction.

 

[Bronzeage]

I think you don't actually understand anything about why a woman finds any particular man attractive, so it was silly of me to pursue the discussion any further.

However. I will share one tip with you. Women are really attracted to poets and it doesn't matter if they have any poetic talent at all.

What women want in a man is not a secret and those things have already been discussed on this thread.

I simply challenged your notion that "anyone" can learn to play a musical instrument. It's just not true.

Also, I am friends with a number of heterosexual women and the poetry writing abilities (or lack thereof) of men hasn't come up.

Okay, to recap how we got here:

Claim: Women are attracted to men who have money.
Challenge: I know musicians who have girlfriends.
Counter claim: Women are attracted to musicians.
Claim: Anyone can learn to play a musical instrument.
Challenge: Women are attracted to good musicians and not all men can be good enough.

This brings us back to the question of what women find attractive, which thanks to this thread, is not a secret.

I claim anyone can learn play a musical instrument well enough to attract a woman, just as anyone can accumulate enough money to do the same.

Well, I think the bolded claim is unevidenced and also wrong.

I've seen it done, and if you haven't, you haven't been paying attention.

You still haven't given me a 1 to 10 rating of how good a musician has to be in order to get a date. After that, we can discuss a minimum amount of expendable income.

 

[Metaphor]

I think you don't actually understand anything about why a woman finds any particular man attractive, so it was silly of me to pursue the discussion any further.

However. I will share one tip with you. Women are really attracted to poets and it doesn't matter if they have any poetic talent at all.

What women want in a man is not a secret and those things have already been discussed on this thread.

I simply challenged your notion that "anyone" can learn to play a musical instrument. It's just not true.

Also, I am friends with a number of heterosexual women and the poetry writing abilities (or lack thereof) of men hasn't come up.

Okay, to recap how we got here:

Claim: Women are attracted to men who have money.
Challenge: I know musicians who have girlfriends.
Counter claim: Women are attracted to musicians.
Claim: Anyone can learn to play a musical instrument.
Challenge: Women are attracted to good musicians and not all men can be good enough.

This brings us back to the question of what women find attractive, which thanks to this thread, is not a secret.

I claim anyone can learn play a musical instrument well enough to attract a woman, just as anyone can accumulate enough money to do the same.

Well, I think the bolded claim is unevidenced and also wrong.

I've seen it done, and if you haven't, you haven't been paying attention.

No, you haven't seen it done, because to have seen it done you'd either need to have seen evidence that everyone can do it, or you've seen such a wide cross-section of backgrounds and aptitudes from wunderkind to dunce to confidently say 'anyone' can do it.

I know people--accomplished in non-musical fields, who cannot perceive the difference between notes a semitone apart. Some people have no natural aptitude and to tell them they can just get good enough is not right. Many people cannot sing--they can't even control the most natural instrument it is possible to control - they can't make the right notes and they can't even hear that they aren't making the right notes.

You still haven't given me a 1 to 10 rating of how good a musician has to be in order to get a date. After that, we can discuss a minimum amount of expendable income.

I don't know.

 

[Bronzeage]

I think you don't actually understand anything about why a woman finds any particular man attractive, so it was silly of me to pursue the discussion any further.

However. I will share one tip with you. Women are really attracted to poets and it doesn't matter if they have any poetic talent at all.

What women want in a man is not a secret and those things have already been discussed on this thread.

I simply challenged your notion that "anyone" can learn to play a musical instrument. It's just not true.

Also, I am friends with a number of heterosexual women and the poetry writing abilities (or lack thereof) of men hasn't come up.

Okay, to recap how we got here:

Claim: Women are attracted to men who have money.
Challenge: I know musicians who have girlfriends.
Counter claim: Women are attracted to musicians.
Claim: Anyone can learn to play a musical instrument.
Challenge: Women are attracted to good musicians and not all men can be good enough.

This brings us back to the question of what women find attractive, which thanks to this thread, is not a secret.

I claim anyone can learn play a musical instrument well enough to attract a woman, just as anyone can accumulate enough money to do the same.

Well, I think the bolded claim is unevidenced and also wrong.

I've seen it done, and if you haven't, you haven't been paying attention.

No, you haven't seen it done, because to have seen it done you'd either need to have seen evidence that everyone can do it, or you've seen such a wide cross-section of backgrounds and aptitudes from wunderkind to dunce to confidently say 'anyone' can do it.

I know people--accomplished in non-musical fields, who cannot perceive the difference between notes a semitone apart. Some people have no natural aptitude and to tell them they can just get good enough is not right. Many people cannot sing--they can't even control the most natural instrument it is possible to control - they can't make the right notes and they can't even hear that they aren't making the right notes.

You still haven't given me a 1 to 10 rating of how good a musician has to be in order to get a date. After that, we can discuss a minimum amount of expendable income.

I don't know.

You don't know how skilled a musician must be in order to get a date, but then insist you know the skill too low to get a date and and set it at zero.

You readily offer a definition of zero skills for singing, which is kind of harsh, but a person who "can't even hear that they aren't making the right notes" would have no inhibitions about singing and thus sing with all atonal glory, simply because he desires to sing, and catch the attention of a woman who has the same musical disability. By your own standards, you cannot refute this claim because you need to have seen evidence that everyone cannot do it, or you've seen such a wide cross-section of backgrounds and aptitudes from wunderkind to dunce to confidently say 'no one' can do it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I've seen it done, and if you haven't, you haven't been paying attention.

You still haven't given me a 1 to 10 rating of how good a musician has to be in order to get a date. After that, we can discuss a minimum amount of expendable income.

A musician basically has to be good enough to be worthy of a public performance before it's even relevant to getting a date.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I know people--accomplished in non-musical fields, who cannot perceive the difference between notes a semitone apart. Some people have no natural aptitude and to tell them they can just get good enough is not right. Many people cannot sing--they can't even control the most natural instrument it is possible to control - they can't make the right notes and they can't even hear that they aren't making the right notes.

I've never tried it in any sort of calibrated sense but I know that when two notes are close I can hear they are different without being able to tell which is higher. It's never been important to know exactly what I don't know with tone, I know better than to try anything that requires it and that's that.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You readily offer a definition of zero skills for singing, which is kind of harsh, but a person who "can't even hear that they aren't making the right notes" would have no inhibitions about singing and thus sing with all atonal glory, simply because he desires to sing, and catch the attention of a woman who has the same musical disability. By your own standards, you cannot refute this claim because you need to have seen evidence that everyone cannot do it, or you've seen such a wide cross-section of backgrounds and aptitudes from wunderkind to dunce to confidently say 'no one' can do it.

You're coming at this from a standpoint that all roadblocks are in the mind.

With vision we have figured out that a lot of people have impaired color vision. No amount of effort can overcome this. Why do you not understand that there are almost certainly many other impairments that haven't been decoded sufficiently to prove they are physical in nature rather than simply having no color sense.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

...some of them look kind of cute, actually.

So...I will never understand people that are looking for casual sex at all. It is minimal, uncertain gratification and a lot of drama and judgment and shaming. While I think that religious zealots were wrong to try to outlaw fornication, I have a philosophy, "just because outlawing it is a bad idea doesn't mean that doing it is a good idea, either." As a society, we really need to come to grips with this understanding.

 

[RVonse]

On the Other Message Board, one incel told us that he deserved a taxpayer-funded sex robot! There was no smiley-face, but might he have been a right-wing incel being sarcastic about the welfare state?

I don't think this should be regarded lightly at all. As Loren pointed out earlier in this thread, technology has probably exerbated the dating experience for many men. With that assumption perhaps the situation can be corrected with technology as well.

In any case if the choice is sex starved incels becoming outcast and violent due to evolutionary urges versus using tax funds for sex robots..... I'd be in favor of spending the tax money on the robots. For the general benefit of society.