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The Science and Mechanics of Free Will

Of course there can, in theory, be a scientific explanation.

But "will" is too narrow a topic.

It is just a subset of "consciousness".

Once "consciousness" has a scientific explanation then "will" would be understood as well.

I am not sure I am connecting with you. Are you talking about the scientific/material consciousness or the immaterial consciousness?

If you mean the former, then I am not sure what this has to do with whether or not science could ever explain or confirm that free will exists or can ever rule it out. That is what I am asking and attempting to answer myself.

My attempt at an explanation is what I have been trying to explain to DBT.

If we agree to assume that these "immaterial" experiences and subjective notions exist, then maybe we can match them up to scientific phenomena. If we can do that, then the mind, if it exists, is parallel with and thus just as important and real as matter. Mind and matter would be unified for all practical purposes.

The subjective experience occurs because of objective activity.

The objective activity that gives rise to subjective experience can certainly, in theory, be completely understood.

Wait wait wait, what makes you say that? Why is mental experience an emergent property of matter and not the other way around? As far as I know, there is no convincing argument why one should arise from the other.

It would almost seem like QM gives us a hint that the mind determines what the universe is instead of it being a structure of collapsed wave functions.

Or, why can't the mind and material exist together in unity like the letter T that needs both lines to exist?
 
Right here:

You don't have a working definition of 'will?' What about 'a conscious impulse or drive to act'....the will to respond?'

You are asking if the subjective experience of "will" is in any way a scientific explanation of "will". It isn't.

Wrong. You are interpreting what I said through the filter of your own beliefs.

Volition/drivers/will lies in the domain of neuroscience, which has been explored in recent times by researchers....according to neuroscience;

Human volition: towards a neuroscience of will

Abstract
''The capacity for voluntary action is seen as essential to human nature. Yet neuroscience and behaviourist psychology have traditionally dismissed the topic as unscientific, perhaps because the mechanisms that cause actions have long been unclear. However, new research has identified networks of brain areas, including the pre-supplementary motor area, the anterior prefrontal cortex and the parietal cortex, that underlie voluntary action. These areas generate information for forthcoming actions, and also cause the distinctive conscious experience of intending to act and then controlling one's own actions. Volition consists of a series of decisions regarding whether to act, what action to perform and when to perform it. Neuroscientific accounts of voluntary action may inform debates about the nature of individual responsibility.''

Yes it is possible to observe animals doing things and then label those behaviors as "willful". But you haven't explained one thing.

The drivers of behaviour - hunger, thirst, mating, etc, providing the impetus, the will, the drive to fulfill these needs and wants. There is no separating drive/volition from will. Just different words referring to aspects of the same phenomena.


Saying animals seek food for survival is a million miles away from understanding the internal mechanisms, supposedly in the brain, of why and how they do it.

That is exactly what neuroscience is exploring, and has been for some decades, Skinner, Delgado, Libet, etc.
 
But the choice was made milliseconds before conscious report, the latter being your experience.

In total I spent about 5 minutes thinking about whether or not I should go for that run.

No you didn't. Your brain spent a little longer, milliseconds, gathering information and responding to cues before generating what you feel you were thinking and deciding. The decision already settled milliseconds before the experience is formed in order to prompt the action while the ongoing conscious experience is being 'refreshed' with inputs.

Which is a process, as I've already pointed out, which falls apart when a single factor fails, neural connectivity/memory function loss. Which in turn reveals conscious agency/conscious will for the illusion it is.


The key word here is "determines". You are assuming that the choice was determined, which assumes that there is no QM effects. You are essentially coming to a conclusion on the premise of determinism. I have no problem with that; as I said long ago, I need QM to make this work.

I'm talking about connectivity, not quantum probability. It is dendrites and synapses that convey information pertaining to the environment and how to respond to it (memory function) and not the quantum uncertainty principle, or qm probability, which does not help weigh options according to past experience and pattern recognition.
 
In total I spent about 5 minutes thinking about whether or not I should go for that run.

No you didn't. Your brain spent a little longer, milliseconds, gathering information and responding to cues before generating what you feel you were thinking and deciding. The decision already settled milliseconds before the experience is formed in order to prompt the action while the ongoing conscious experience is being 'refreshed' with inputs.

Which is a process, as I've already pointed out, which falls apart when a single factor fails, neural connectivity/memory function loss. Which in turn reveals conscious agency/conscious will for the illusion it is.


The key word here is "determines". You are assuming that the choice was determined, which assumes that there is no QM effects. You are essentially coming to a conclusion on the premise of determinism. I have no problem with that; as I said long ago, I need QM to make this work.

I'm talking about connectivity, not quantum probability. It is dendrites and synapses that convey information pertaining to the environment and how to respond to it (memory function) and not the quantum uncertainty principle, or qm probability, which does not help weigh options according to past experience and pattern recognition.

Sure this is true in a Newtonian world, but we don't live in such a world. If there is QM in the decision making process, then that is such a game changer. My decision making process would no longer be constricted to one outcome; there would be many different possible outcomes, possibly infinite. This can be good or bad depending on how you look at it.
 
Sure this is true in a Newtonian world, but we don't live in such a world. If there is QM in the decision making process, then that is such a game changer. My decision making process would no longer be constricted to one outcome; there would be many different possible outcomes, possibly infinite. This can be good or bad depending on how you look at it.

Nope, nothing to do with a ''Newtonian world' and all to do with the physical architecture of the brain and its function, which includes QM as the underlying scaffolding of all macro scale systems, but not necessarily the role and function of a mechanism. A car engine, for example, cannot weigh options because that is not its role/function according to its architecture...yet the QM scaffolding is common to both car engine and human brain.
 
I am not sure I am connecting with you. Are you talking about the scientific/material consciousness or the immaterial consciousness?

You're not connecting with the world.

There is no such thing as "immaterial".

Is magnetism "immaterial"?
 
I am not sure I am connecting with you. Are you talking about the scientific/material consciousness or the immaterial consciousness?

You're not connecting with the world.

There is no such thing as "immaterial".

Is magnetism "immaterial"?

Yes. Magnetism is immaterial. That which causes magnetism to arise is material.
However the effects of magnetism can be seen in the material.

But what does immaterial versus material have to do with anything?
 
You're not connecting with the world.

There is no such thing as "immaterial".

Is magnetism "immaterial"?

Yes. Magnetism is immaterial. That which causes magnetism to arise is material.
However the effects of magnetism can be seen in the material.

But what does immaterial versus material have to do with anything?

No, magnetism is just a manifestation of the material. A property of matter.

Matter and all it's properties are material.

That is the definition of material.

The same with consciousness. It is a property of matter in a certain arrangement.

Nothing "immaterial" about it. Calling it "immaterial" is just a remnant of religious thinking where "spirits" exist.
 
Sure this is true in a Newtonian world, but we don't live in such a world. If there is QM in the decision making process, then that is such a game changer. My decision making process would no longer be constricted to one outcome; there would be many different possible outcomes, possibly infinite. This can be good or bad depending on how you look at it.

Nope, nothing to do with a ''Newtonian world' and all to do with the physical architecture of the brain and its function, which includes QM as the underlying scaffolding of all macro scale systems, but not necessarily the role and function of a mechanism. A car engine, for example, cannot weigh options because that is not its role/function according to its architecture...yet the QM scaffolding is common to both car engine and human brain.
Yes, but how relevant is QM in the brain, is the question. We know QM does not play a significant role in an engine because we have a thorough understanding of an engine. But we do not have a complete understanding of the decision making process.

Here is a quote (from http://cdp.sagepub.com/content/24/3/163.abstract ) that I am not using so much as an argument for quantum processes in decision making, but just to remind you how much they presently don't understand about cognitive processes like the decision making process.

"Quantum cognition is a new research program that uses mathematical principles from quantum theory as a framework to explain human cognition, including judgment and decision making, concepts, reasoning, memory, and perception. This research is not concerned with whether the brain is a quantum computer. Instead, it uses quantum theory as a fresh conceptual framework and a coherent set of formal tools for explaining puzzling empirical findings in psychology. In this introduction, we focus on two quantum principles as examples to show why quantum cognition is an appealing new theoretical direction for psychology: complementarity, which suggests that some psychological measures have to be made sequentially and that the context generated by the first measure can influence responses to the next one, producing measurement order effects, and superposition, which suggests that some psychological states cannot be defined with respect to definite values but, instead, that all possible values within the superposition have some potential for being expressed. We present evidence showing how these two principles work together to provide a coherent explanation for many divergent and puzzling phenomena in psychology."

This next quote from https://www.inverse.com/article/6152-quantum-physics-explains-why-you-suck-at-making-decisions that paraphrases what Zheng Joyce Wang of Ohio State University explains,

"Before we make a choice, our options are all superpositioned. Each possibility adds a whole new layer of dimensions, making the decision process even more complicated. Under conventional approaches to psychology, the process makes no sense, but under a quantum approach, Wang argues that the decision-making process suddenly becomes clear. It’s why people might make choices they know are against their own best interests."

That quote backs up exactly what I have been saying.

Finally, as I told you in our last major discussion on this that it would only be a matter of time before QM is theorized as being theoretically possible in the neurological processes in the brain, it would seem that that has come. The full paper connected to the link explains, "A simple example with two neurons illustrating this critical link between nuclear spin entanglement
and neuron firing rates is depicted in Fig. 3d. Compound and more elaborate processes involving
multiple Posner molecules and multiple neurons are possible, and might enable complex nuclear-spin
quantum processing in the brain." ( from https://www.kitp.ucsb.edu/sites/default/files/users/mpaf/174.pdf ).

A crucial part of my argument has always only ever been that QM processes might be involved in the decision making process, and I hope that you can finally agree with this part.
 
I am not sure I am connecting with you. Are you talking about the scientific/material consciousness or the immaterial consciousness?

You're not connecting with the world.

There is no such thing as "immaterial".

Is magnetism "immaterial"?

It was not my intension to discuss whether immaterial exists or not.
 

So you ask questions and then run away from them as Fast as possible?

I am not sure I am connecting with you. Are you talking about the scientific/material consciousness or the immaterial consciousness?

Okay.

Untermensche, why would you reply to my post the way that you did.

I love discussing the idea of immaterial, but that is a huge discussion for another thread. I am interested in a response that is more aligned with my post.
 
So you ask questions and then run away from them as Fast as possible?

I am not sure I am connecting with you. Are you talking about the scientific/material consciousness or the immaterial consciousness?

Okay.

Untermensche, why would you reply to my post the way that you did.

I love discussing the idea of immaterial, but that is a huge discussion for another thread. I am interested in a response that is more aligned with my post.

Your thinking is so muddled I have to focus on one thing at a time.

Straightening out this issue puts light on some of the other muddled thinking in your post.

Muddled thinking like this:

Why is mental experience an emergent property of matter and not the other way around? As far as I know, there is no convincing argument why one should arise from the other.

There is absolutely convincing evidence that humans are here as a result of evolution. To imagine they are here for any other reason violates parsimony, it requires massive additions behind the scene that are invisible, and is therefore irrational.

Therefore organism precedes consciousness.

This is not a question anymore.
 
So you ask questions and then run away from them as Fast as possible?

I am not sure I am connecting with you. Are you talking about the scientific/material consciousness or the immaterial consciousness?

Okay.

Untermensche, why would you reply to my post the way that you did.

I love discussing the idea of immaterial, but that is a huge discussion for another thread. I am interested in a response that is more aligned with my post.

Your thinking is so muddled I have to focus on one thing at a time.

Straightening out this issue puts light on some of the other muddled thinking in your post.

Muddled thinking like this:

Why is mental experience an emergent property of matter and not the other way around? As far as I know, there is no convincing argument why one should arise from the other.

There is absolutely convincing evidence that humans are here as a result of evolution. To imagine they are here for any other reason violates parsimony, it requires massive additions behind the scene that are invisible, and is therefore irrational.

Therefore organism precedes consciousness.

This is not a question anymore.

What happened to you? You are like maybe the worst one now.
 
There is a dark cloud hanging over this forum, and it's spreading like a bad fart.

A dark cloud of people not agreeing with you?

That's a dreadful shame.

Either there is something wrong with them, or your arguments are not as compelling as you think they are. Therefore there must be something wrong with them. Amirite?
 
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