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The Shakespeare Authorship Controversy

My first introduction to the authorship question was in the 1980s when, like Regnier, I watched that FRONTLINE show. Like him, it intrigued me but didn't change my take on Stratford Shakespeare. Like him I had Shakespeare courses in college, being a Lit Major that was unavoidable, but was not aware of the controversy.

For the Stratfordians they seem to be asking the Oxfordians to prove a negative, and of course that is impossible. It's just that so much circumstantial evidence is out there that one has to question that traditional view that the Shak-spere of Stratford is the author.

One of the most compelling bits of evidence, and the late Regnier makes a point of explaining this, are the six signatures, three of which appear on a will. How could any person inclined to sign their name in so many different ways possibly write Hamlet or King Lear or Sonnets? It really strains credulity. One of the answers has been to claim that others penned those signatures as Shakespeare was unable to do so himself. But if that were the case how can we say the Stratford gentleman was literate?

I think what ultimately draws people to the traditional Stratfordian explanation is it's miraculousness. It's like Jesus. It's easy to believe because it's so unbelievable, a simple person is gifted with such wisdom and experience because it's a gift from a god. There's no other explanation, it's just so awesome, so preordained, so holy. So doubters and investigators are ridiculed because someone's Truth is threatened.
 
I sometimes click the browser's Bookmark button, but more often just download the page I want, or copy-paste a part of it. This has worked very well for me, because good pages are constantly disappearing from the 'Net! :-( I first learned of the Authorship controversy from an article (by Bethell?) in a print copy of Harper's. Several years later something jogged my memory and I looked for — and found — that article on-line. I downloaded it: Good thing: it ain't on the 'Net no more.

Another very interesting article I downloaded was "Edward de Vere's Will" by Randall Barron. And again, Google doesn't find it anymore except perhaps in a Google Book with "not available in this preview." But I had saved the article! I'll message it to anyone who asks, and appeal for advice: Can I post it here without violating copyright? What if I abbreviate it? Do I need to summarize it in my own words?

The relationship between Oxford and Southampton adds much insight and credibility to the Oxfordian case, and I'd wanted to quote Barron's article when I summarize that.

Meanwhile, let me thank again the response here at TFT! I had some misgivings about starting this thread as other message-boards treat the topic with condescension and ignorant derision. My already-high opinion of this message-board has been improved greatly by this thread.

Denizens of inferior message-boards must get their opinions by Googling for "Help me debunk the crazy Oxfordians." Then they tell us that Oxfordians are "elitists" who can't imagine a non-aristocrat excelling as the writer of the plays and poems did. Hogwash! It's the evidence that informs us, not some bigotry.

I hugely admire — as did Mark Twain of course (he wrote a book about her as well as his book on the Shakespeare hoax) — the peasant girl Joan of Arc who led France's army and outwitted the learned bishops who tried her for heresy. I love that sort of story, and would love to applaud a glover's son who wrote Hamlet and the Sonnets. But it just ain't so.
 
One of the most compelling bits of evidence, and the late Regnier makes a point of explaining this, are the six signatures, three of which appear on a will. How could any person inclined to sign their name in so many different ways possibly write Hamlet or King Lear or Sonnets? It really strains credulity.
"His checks keep bouncing because his signature varies. He's a class act." - Hopscotch

We expect normal educated people to have consistent signatures, but that's because it's 2020 and we all grew up in a culture that has an accepted standard meaning for signatures -- they're the way we've been taught to associate important documents with ourselves. That's not a law of nature but an arbitrary custom. It wasn't always so. In the slightly different culture that our culture evolved from, the accepted way to associate important documents with yourself was to press your personal signet ring into some hardenable liquid. The transition from signet rings to standardized handwritten signatures happened gradually over the course of the fifteen and sixteen hundreds; in England contracts were required to be signed only after 1677. So why would one expect an Englishman from around 1600 to always sign his name the same way? Who's supposed to have told him he needed to do that?
 
So why would one expect an Englishman from around 1600 to always sign his name the same way? Who's supposed to have told him he needed to do that?
We have nothing else in his hand, only six signatures. Those signatures don't look like the penmanship of of a person capable of writing. They look like the penmanship of someone illiterate and who maybe has someone else signing his name for him.
 
Many Oxfordians enumerate certain facts about the plays: they often closely mirror events in de Vere's life, or in the lives of his social circle.

But the Sonnets may offer other firm proofs. So firm that the traditionalists aver "Can't relate a sonnet to its author. Against the rules." Wow! Some of them literally focus on 'sonnet' here, rather than poem more generally! Yet many of the sonnets are total mystery if written by the glover's son, but almost autobiographical if written by de Vere.

I've already mentioned that the publication of the Sonnets -- in a way which would make sense only if the poet were dead and/or pseudonymous -- and its mysterious dedication was suspicious. But what about the contents?

There are four main characters in the Sonnets: Ego himself, a Fair Youth, a Dark Lady, and the so-called Rival Poet. There is also mention of a "She" whom Ego loves; I don't know which of these are associated with the so-called Dark Lady.

Stratfordians can't really explain any of it. It's logical that Southampton should be the Fair Youth, but the familiar and secret-sharing poem contents make those sonnets unlikely to be written at all If Fair Youth is a nobleman, and Ego is a yeoman in Southampton's pay.

Oxfordians have Ego as de Vere of course, Fair Youth is still Southampton, and Dark Lady is(*) ... Queen Elizabeth! (* - Not all Oxfordians agree on all matters! :) )

Traditionalists are, as we have seen, utterly lacking in imagination and will answer "Duuh? Elizabeth was famous for her red hair and light-colored skin." Precisely! If a genius like de Vere was in the mood to speak intimately of Her Majesty, what better ruse for discretion than to get her hair color wrong?

(While preparing this, I thought 'Why type all this? It's all at Wiki or whatever, and the experts in this thread are familiar with all of it to the point of boredom. But maybe one or two of you are interested, and typing is cheap anyway.)

Cast of Characters:
 Henry Wriothesley, 3rd Earl of Southampton -- allegedly the Fair Youth.

 Mary_Wriothesley,_Countess_of_Southampton Henry's mother, the Dowager Countess of Southampton, Mary nee Brown. Born the daughter of a Viscount and granddaughter of an Earl, Mary Brown married Earl Southampton (Fair Henry's father Henry) when he was 20 and she was 13. Husband died when she was 29, but she didn't remarry until she was 40, marrying the much older Thomas Heneage (Groom of the Stool under Henry VIII) who by then was very well connected with H.M. He soon died and in 1597 Mary married, as her 3rd husband and his 1st wife, William Hervey (knighted at Cadiz and already an M.P. She died in 1607 -- shortly before Sonnet publication! -- and W.H. re-married (was elevated to Baronet and, twice, Baron, but all three titles went extinct on his death in 1642).

 William Cecil, 1st Baron Burghley
Encyclopedia Britannica said:
From 1558 [] to 1598, the biography of Cecil is almost indistinguishable from that of Elizabeth and from the history of England.

When Edward's father died in 1562, William Cecil was already the most powerful commoner in England and Secretary of State. His many duties included acting as guardian for young Earls like Edward de Vere and, later, Henry of Southampton. In 1572 he was elevated to the Peerage and also made Lord High Treasurer. He may have been the country's de facto ruler; Her Majesty depended on him, called him "Sir Spirit", and was inconsolable at Cecil's deathbed, feeding him with her own hand.

Cecil was eager to marry his daughters and grand-daughters to wealthy or important Earls. Just as Polonius in the autobiographical Hamlet sought to marry his daughter Ophelia to the young Prince, so Cecil (supposedly nicknamed 'Pol') wanted to marry his daughter Anne to the young Oxford. And, just as Polonius' son Laertes opposed Hamlet, so Pol's son Robert Cecil was a constant thorn in Oxford's side. When his grand-daughter Elizabeth was still very young, Cecil contracted with Mary Dowager Countess to marry her to Henry, also then very young. The two children each spent much time at Cecil House, knew each other like cousins, but for some reason, as Henry grew into manhood he determined not to marry Elizabeth.

It is generally believed that Venus and Adonis and dozens of the Sonnets were expressly written to encourage Henry to fulfill the marriage contract negotiated between the wealthy Dowager Mary nee Brown and the powerful Baron Burghley. (Eventually Henry reneged on the contract; Cecil ordered him to pay a fine of £5000.)

In whose interest was this marriage? (Who had an interest in the writings of those poems?) The two obvious candidates were:

(1) Wm Cecil (aka Burghley) was happy to marry his grand-daughter to the wealthy Earl. Also Mary was an attractive and wealthy widow with useful connections in the Catholic community and with insiders like Thomas Heneage.

(2) Countess Mary knew her handsome wealthy son would have no trouble finding brides to his liking. As a Catholic, mightn't she have hoped her son would find a Catholic bride, rather than allying with Protestant Burghley, who had led violent purges against Catholics? (It was Burghley who convinced H.M. to behead Mary Q of Scots. Burghley was also a big supporter of the Stuart claim to England, and thereby unification of the Island.)

It seems to me that the marriage was more important to Cecil than to the Wriothesleys but traditionalists say that it was Countess Mary Wriothesley nee Brown who hired William Shake-speare to write the poems encouraging the marriage.

Yes, she supposedly commissioned Shaksper -- then an unknown playwright in his mid 20's whose only "fame" was being ridiculed by Jonson and Greene -- to write these poems. Yet there is zero evidence that she or her son were Shakespeare's patron. Because the Sonnets were supposedly written as a service for the Dowager Countess, she came into possession of them; they were published several months after her death; some say the "W.H" who was the sonnets' "onlie begetter" was the Countess's 3rd husband William Hervey. (Unexplained is why the poet also provided the Countess with many sonnets unrelated to Henry but instead very personal, and often expressing the poet's shame.)

More likely IMO is a 3rd person who wanted the marriage to proceed:
(3) The father of contracted bride Elizabeth de Vere, and therefore William Cecil's son-in-law, a nobleman who'd suffered heavily financially, due to bad luck and his and his father's profligacy. I speak of course of ... Edward de Vere.

The relationship between Edward Oxford and Henry Southampton was much too complicated to summarize here, especially since Henry was intimately connected to the powerful Earl of Essex. (Powerful only before he was beheaded of course; at one point, H.M. threatened to behead Henry when she beheaded Essex. Supposedly some of the Sonnets shed light directly on Southampton's stay in the Tower of London.)

But there is one interesting, unexplained and often-overlooked incident, with which I will close this post. Let me stress that this incident sheds no light directly on the Shakespeare Authorship controversy. But it does betoken that unsolved mysteries connect our players.

G.P. V. Akrigg in his orthodox biography of Southampton said:
Suddenly the even happy flow of Southampton's career came to a halt. Late on the evening of June 24th [1604] he was arrested, along with [four other knights or lords]. Southampton's papers were seized and scrutinized. He himself was interrogated. According to the French Ambassador, King James had gone into a complete panic and could not sleep that night even though he had a guard of his Scots posted around his quarters. Presumably to protect his heir, he sent orders to Prince Henry that he must not stir out of his chamber.

Next morning, while the Privy Council was examining its prisoners, wild rumours swept through the Court.

It seems interesting to me that there is no record of this "panic" or quintuple arrest in England; historians know of it only because at least two Ambassadors described it in letters home.

Only just a few decades ago, it appears that nobody connected the date of this incident to any other event. But something else happened on that same Sunday in June:
Complete Peerage said:
Edward de Vere died intestate at King's Hold, Hackney, Middlesex, 24 June 1604, buried 6 July 1604.
It had been barely a year since King James rode down to claim the throne; Oxford knew much about the Stuart succession. Had Shake-speare written about it?

Yes, when Edward of Oxford died -- on the same day Southampton's papers were seized -- no documents or manuscripts are reported to have turned up, not even a last will and testament. He was called England's premier Earl; is it really likely he wouldn't write a will?

Common-sense tells me that King James seized Southampton's papers because Oxford died. Surely he seized Oxford's papers as well. We can only guess what papers disappeared, but it is rather peculiar that Edward, who knew he was severely ill, left no will. I think there were important secrets to be kept, and King James was worried about a "To be opened on my death" letter. We do know that Oxford was a writer and dedicated the final years of his life to writing, yet none of his manuscripts turned up in the days following his death.
 
On a personal note, I feel that if I had been exposed to Shakespeare knowing that Oxford was the author, it would have enriched the experience tremendously. And of course this is how we studied and read all authors, all except Shakespeare. Shakespeare, as taught, was supposedly the one author who did not write from his experiences, this being the traditionalist, Stratfordian view. How stupid is that, an author that writes not from his experiences but just invents whatever he needs to invent, nothing in his works reflecting his life's experiences? Stratfordians explain this disconnect between Stratford and Shakespeare by saying that Stratford Shakespeare was simply a natural genius.

We now know that Edward DeVere was the author. As such the Shakespeare cannon makes a lot more sense. It makes scientific sense and it makes literary sense. Just reading DeVere's tin letters is enough to convince me that he's the man. Lots of shared language, phrases, etc.
 
Who came up with that stupid idea? I can think of plenty of authors who do not write from personal experience. All science fiction, fantasy, and religious writers, for instance.
 
Who came up with that stupid idea? I can think of plenty of authors who do not write from personal experience. All science fiction, fantasy, and religious writers, for instance.

I admire your conviction.

Have you examined any of the evidence supporting Oxfordian authorship, watched any videos, read Looney, etc.?
 
Who came up with that stupid idea? I can think of plenty of authors who do not write from personal experience. All science fiction, fantasy, and religious writers, for instance.

I admire your conviction.

Have you examined any of the evidence supporting Oxfordian authorship, watched any videos, read Looney, etc.?
I'm questioning your argument, not the authorship of Shakespeare's works. Whatever happened to imagination? I think it's ridiculous to say that the social classes are so culturally distant from one another that a middle class person can't even imagine what upper class people are like. Simply absurd. Shakespeare has plenty of female protagonists in his plays, does that make him a woman? He has quite a number of fairies in Midsummer Night's Dream, was he personally acquainted with the Fae? If your English professors taught you that people can only write about personal experiences, never engaging in true fiction writing, your English teachers were unlettered morons.
 
Who came up with that stupid idea? I can think of plenty of authors who do not write from personal experience. All science fiction, fantasy, and religious writers, for instance.

I think you're missing the point.

Percy Bysshe Shelley wrote "To a Skylark" but for all we know he hated skylarks! Maybe he just wanted to get published and thought of a few lines about that bird that seemed to work. Similarly, some of the love expressed in the sonnets may go beyond the poet's personal experience.

But this breaks down for the sonnets with strong personal content. Do you think Sonnets 71-72 were written just to be marketable, like the rhymes in "Skylark," and had no relation to the poet? Were these words written by a sycophant to his patron?
No longer mourn for me when I am dead,
Than you shall hear the surly sullen bell
Give warning to the world that I am fled
From this vile world with vilest worms to dwell:
Nay if you read this line, remember not,
The hand that writ it, for I love you so,
That I in your sweet thoughts would be forgot,
If thinking on me then should make you woe.
O if (I say) you look upon this verse,
When I (perhaps) compounded am with clay,
Do not so much as my poor name rehearse;
But let your love even with my life decay.
. . . Lest the wise world should look into your moan,
. . . And mock you with me after I am gone.

O lest the world should task you to recite,
What merit lived in me that you should love
After my death (dear love) forget me quite,
For you in me can nothing worthy prove.
Unless you would devise some virtuous lie,
To do more for me than mine own desert,
And hang more praise upon deceased I,
Than niggard truth would willingly impart:
O lest your true love may seem false in this,
That you for love speak well of me untrue,
My name be buried where my body is,
And live no more to shame nor me, nor you.
. . . For I am shamed by that which I bring forth,
. . . And so should you, to love things nothing worth.
In Sonnet CXXV why does the poet write "... I bore the canopy"? Is this just a word that rhymes with "eternity"? Serious question: What canopy did the glover's son bear? Or pretend to bear if the poem was pure fiction?

As for glimpses of Oxford in the plays, it's not just general subject matter, but specifics. There are many names and incidents in the plays that parallel specifics in Oxford's life. The quantity of such coincidences is overwhelming.
 
Who came up with that stupid idea? I can think of plenty of authors who do not write from personal experience. All science fiction, fantasy, and religious writers, for instance.

I think you're missing the point.

Percy Bysshe Shelley wrote "To a Skylark" but for all we know he hated skylarks! Maybe he just wanted to get published and thought of a few lines about that bird that seemed to work. Similarly, some of the love expressed in the sonnets may go beyond the poet's personal experience.

But this breaks down for the sonnets with strong personal content. Do you think Sonnets 71-72 were written just to be marketable, like the rhymes in "Skylark," and had no relation to the poet? Were these words written by a sycophant to his patron?
No longer mourn for me when I am dead,
Than you shall hear the surly sullen bell
Give warning to the world that I am fled
From this vile world with vilest worms to dwell:
Nay if you read this line, remember not,
The hand that writ it, for I love you so,
That I in your sweet thoughts would be forgot,
If thinking on me then should make you woe.
O if (I say) you look upon this verse,
When I (perhaps) compounded am with clay,
Do not so much as my poor name rehearse;
But let your love even with my life decay.
. . . Lest the wise world should look into your moan,
. . . And mock you with me after I am gone.

O lest the world should task you to recite,
What merit lived in me that you should love
After my death (dear love) forget me quite,
For you in me can nothing worthy prove.
Unless you would devise some virtuous lie,
To do more for me than mine own desert,
And hang more praise upon deceased I,
Than niggard truth would willingly impart:
O lest your true love may seem false in this,
That you for love speak well of me untrue,
My name be buried where my body is,
And live no more to shame nor me, nor you.
. . . For I am shamed by that which I bring forth,
. . . And so should you, to love things nothing worth.
In Sonnet CXXV why does the poet write "... I bore the canopy"? Is this just a word that rhymes with "eternity"? Serious question: What canopy did the glover's son bear? Or pretend to bear if the poem was pure fiction?

As for glimpses of Oxford in the plays, it's not just general subject matter, but specifics. There are many names and incidents in the plays that parallel specifics in Oxford's life. The quantity of such coincidences is overwhelming.

I was addressing T.G.G. Moogly's claim that an author can only write of their own experiences, and that such a reading somehow "enriches" one's reading of a text.
 
As for glimpses of Oxford in the plays, it's not just general subject matter, but specifics. There are many names and incidents in the plays that parallel specifics in Oxford's life. The quantity of such coincidences is overwhelming.
Equally overwhelming is the lack of any literary connection whatsoever to the Stratford man. The fact that he likely brokered theatre and possibly did some acting isn't much of a connection for a person for which all we have are six signatures on documents that make no literary connection. Even his family members never mention his alleged literary connections. They mention meeting other literary figures but not Stratford.

And that's the draw for Stratfordians, it's so incredible it can only be true. With Oxford there are numerous connections, nothing needs to be incredible, it all makes sense.
 
Just reading DeVere's tin letters is enough to convince me that he's the man. Lots of shared language, phrases, etc.

Do you have a bookmark?

Here are two poems agreed to be De Vere's IIUC. What are the dates of their writing? (Unknown, I'm afraid.) Nobody argues these are of the same quality as Sheke-speare's, but the first especially seems rather good to me.

Edward de Vere said:
IF women could be fair and yet not fond,
. . . Or that their love were firm, not fickle still,
I would not marvel that they make men bond
. . . By service long to purchase their good will ;
But when I see how frail those creatures are,
I laugh that men forget themselves so far.

To mark the choice they make, and how they change,
. . . How oft from Phoebus do they flee to Pan ;
Unsettled still, like haggards wild they range,
. . . These gentle birds that fly from man to man ;
Who would not scorn and shake them from the fist,
And let them fly, fair fools, which way they list ?

Yet for our sport we fawn and flatter both,
. . . To pass the time when nothing else can please,
And train them to our lure with subtle oath,
. . . Till, weary of their wiles, ourselves we ease ;
And then we say when we their fancy try,
To play with fools, O what a fool was I !

Edward de Vere was one of few poets to use iambic pentameter before Shake-speare. The 2nd example is hexameter.

Edward de Vere said:
What shepherd can express
The favour of her face ?
To whom in this distress
I do appeal for grace ;
. . . A thousand cupids fly
. . . About her gentle eye ;

From which each throws a dart
That kindleth soft sweet fire
Within my sighing heart ;
Possessed by desire
. . . No sweeter life I try
. . . Than in her love to die.

The lily in the field
That glories in his white,
For pureness now must yield
And render up his right.
. . . Heaven pictur'd in her face
. . . Doth promise joy and grace.

Fair Cynthia's silver light
That beats on running streams,
Compares not with her white,
Whose hairs are all sunbeams.
. . . So bright my nymph doth shine
. . . As day unto my eyne.

With this there is a red,
Exceeds the damask rose :
Which in her cheeks is spread
Where every favour grows ;
. . . In sky there is no star
. . . But she surmounts it far.

When Phoebus from his bed
Of Thetis doth arise,
The morning blushing red,
In fair carnation wise ;
. . . He shows in my nymph's face,
. . . As queen of every grace.

This pleasant lily-white,
This taint of roseate red,
This Cynthia's silver light,
This sweet fair Dea spread,
. . . These sunbeams in mine eye,
. . . These beauties make me die.

Both of these poems mention Phoebus, another name for Apollo used sixteen (16) times in Shake-speare's plays. Cynthia is an alternate name for the Moon, mentioned here and in the same Romeo and Juliet scene where Juliet says "It is not yet near day; It was the nightingale, and not the lark, That pierc'd the fearful hollow of thine ear"
Romeo said:
I'll say yon grey is not the morning's eye,
'Tis but the pale reflex of Cynthia's brow;
Thetis is also mentioned in the plays, four times.
 
Here's a youtube video by Bonner Cutting in which she discusses the letters.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_heshWne8o[/YOUTUBE]

The end of the video has a rant in which the presenter uses excerpts from these letters in a run-on style. To my understanding everything he says is from these letters, but it's as if one is listening to Shakespeare. it's pretty amazing.

Contrast this with what we have from Stratford, six paltry signatures from an illiterate businessman. I've come up with the following formula to illuminate and explain the traditional Stratford attribution and it's orthodoxy:

William Shakspur + Magic = William Shakespeare
 
Just thought to toss in a link to Bonner's discussion of Looney's (1920) work in identifying Oxford as the author, the methodology, strategy, etc.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRVpCVgVam0[/YOUTUBE]

Definitely worth the 26 minutes.
 
Why wouldn't Oxford have taken credit for the excellent narrative poems attributed to 'Shakespeare', Venus and Adonis & The Rape of Lucrece?

I'm assuming there was a stigma about nobles writing plays? But I didn't know it also applied to narrative poems.

I ask because those two works bear the same unmatched excellence as the plays.

I keep reading and re-reading the De Vere poems. They are markedly inferior to most anything attributed to 'Shakespeare'.

I'm not talking about content. I am referring to style, the masterful technique. Oxford used little enjambment, for one small example.
 
Why wouldn't Oxford have taken credit for the excellent narrative poems attributed to 'Shakespeare', Venus and Adonis & The Rape of Lucrece?

I'm assuming there was a stigma about nobles writing plays? But I didn't know it also applied to narrative poems.

I ask because those two works bear the same unmatched excellence as the plays.

I keep reading and re-reading the De Vere poems. They are markedly inferior to most anything attributed to 'Shakespeare'.

I'm not talking about content. I am referring to style, the masterful technique. Oxford used little enjambment, for one small example.

My understanding is that aristocracy didn't dabble in this sort of thing. Oxford's life also has experiences that would lend him to wishing to remain anonymous. Anonymity and pseudo anonymity were common at the time. Looney's methodology was to find verse that matched Venus and Adonis because it was his contention that this was certainly not a writer's "first" work, a point I think he correctly deduced. Stratfordians contend this was the first work in the Shakespeare Corpus. Looney believed there had to be lesser works to come before, which he found with De Vere, and in the same structure.

As presented by Bonner, Looney actually profiled the author of Shakespeare and began to search the history for a likely candidate. In searching for precursors to Venus he found verse by De Vere, a person who was not on his list of possible candidates.
 
Why wouldn't Oxford have taken credit for the excellent narrative poems attributed to 'Shakespeare', Venus and Adonis & The Rape of Lucrece?

I'm assuming there was a stigma about nobles writing plays? But I didn't know it also applied to narrative poems.

I ask because those two works bear the same unmatched excellence as the plays.

I keep reading and re-reading the De Vere poems. They are markedly inferior to most anything attributed to 'Shakespeare'.

I'm not talking about content. I am referring to style, the masterful technique. Oxford used little enjambment, for one small example.

My understanding is that aristocracy didn't dabble in this sort of thing. Oxford's life also has experiences that would lend him to wishing to remain anonymous. Anonymity and pseudo anonymity were common at the time. Looney's methodology was to find verse that matched Venus and Adonis because it was his contention that this was certainly not a writer's "first" work, a point I think he correctly deduced. Stratfordians contend this was the first work in the Shakespeare Corpus. Looney believed there had to be lesser works to come before, which he found with De Vere, and in the same structure.

As presented by Bonner, Looney actually profiled the author of Shakespeare and began to search the history for a likely candidate. In searching for precursors to Venus he found verse by De Vere, a person who was not on his list of possible candidates.

I wish wish wish I had more access to a PC. I can hardly type on this device. I have so much to say, to ask.

I love poetry, and I love Shakespeare. Whoever wrote the plays was the greatest poet in English, which anyone without a tin ear would agree to.

I have no dog in this race, just a mild curiosity that is now more peaked. I don't care a fig if 'Shakespeare' was written by a king or a fishmonger, a bum or a polymath, a man, woman, or left handed Martian transvestite - I am a lover of the work.

ETA: and again, what accounts for the dramatic change in style and technique? When did Oxford develop a love for amazing enjambment and all sorts of remarkable and sonorous metrical substitutions?

The poems he took credit for are mediocre.

...

ETA again: Wiki says Oxford was a "court playwright" - I don't suppose there are any extant versions of these in some form somewhere I could look at? Can't find anything yet in a search...
 
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Why wouldn't Oxford have taken credit for the excellent narrative poems attributed to 'Shakespeare', Venus and Adonis & The Rape of Lucrece?

I'm assuming there was a stigma about nobles writing plays? But I didn't know it also applied to narrative poems.

I ask because those two works bear the same unmatched excellence as the plays.

I keep reading and re-reading the De Vere poems. They are markedly inferior to most anything attributed to 'Shakespeare'.

I'm not talking about content. I am referring to style, the masterful technique. Oxford used little enjambment, for one small example.

My understanding is that aristocracy didn't dabble in this sort of thing. Oxford's life also has experiences that would lend him to wishing to remain anonymous. Anonymity and pseudo anonymity were common at the time. Looney's methodology was to find verse that matched Venus and Adonis because it was his contention that this was certainly not a writer's "first" work, a point I think he correctly deduced. Stratfordians contend this was the first work in the Shakespeare Corpus. Looney believed there had to be lesser works to come before, which he found with De Vere, and in the same structure.

As presented by Bonner, Looney actually profiled the author of Shakespeare and began to search the history for a likely candidate. In searching for precursors to Venus he found verse by De Vere, a person who was not on his list of possible candidates.

I wish wish wish I had more access to a PC. I can hardly type on this device. I have so much to say, to ask.

I love poetry, and I love Shakespeare. Whoever wrote the plays was the greatest poet in English, which anyone without a tin ear would agree to.

I have no dog in this race, just a mild curiosity that is now more peaked. I don't care a fig if 'Shakespeare' was written by a king or a fishmonger, a bum or a polymath, a man, woman, or left handed Martian transvestite - I am a lover of the work.

ETA: and again, what accounts for the dramatic change in style and technique? When did Oxford develop a love for amazing enjambment and all sorts of remarkable and sonorous metrical substitutions?

The poems he took credit for are mediocre.

What is the alternative explanation, really? If you can't access a PC to take in some of the videos I recommend Looney's work. The third edition is out 2019, I believe. That De Vere is the author is a very rational, scientific conclusion. That the man from Stratford is the author is simply orthodoxy, tradition and sentiment.

I've spoken to this point before but it really is religious in a sense. There was a time before Darwin when we all supposed in magical beings and creators. It was how we explained everything we saw. Darwin showed us a more intelligent and testable theory that has withstood the test of time and scientific rigor. There are still doubters and scoffers as there will always be but the science is out and it speaks for itself.

The Stratford man somehow led this mundane illiterate early life, then went off to London, wrote Venus, a first work, pretty incredible, then the entire Shakespeare Corpus, then came back to Stratford without any notoriety and lived a mundane existence. It's only compelling and believable for some because it's so miraculous. But in science there are no miracles, hence De Vere.
 
I wish wish wish I had more access to a PC. I can hardly type on this device. I have so much to say, to ask.

I love poetry, and I love Shakespeare. Whoever wrote the plays was the greatest poet in English, which anyone without a tin ear would agree to.

I have no dog in this race, just a mild curiosity that is now more peaked. I don't care a fig if 'Shakespeare' was written by a king or a fishmonger, a bum or a polymath, a man, woman, or left handed Martian transvestite - I am a lover of the work.

ETA: and again, what accounts for the dramatic change in style and technique? When did Oxford develop a love for amazing enjambment and all sorts of remarkable and sonorous metrical substitutions?

The poems he took credit for are mediocre.

What is the alternative explanation, really? If you can't access a PC to take in some of the videos I recommend Looney's work. The third edition is out 2019, I believe. That De Vere is the author is a very rational, scientific conclusion. That the man from Stratford is the author is simply orthodoxy, tradition and sentiment.

I've spoken to this point before but it really is religious in a sense. There was a time before Darwin when we all supposed in magical beings and creators. It was how we explained everything we saw. Darwin showed us a more intelligent and testable theory that has withstood the test of time and scientific rigor. There are still doubters and scoffers as there will always be but the science is out and it speaks for itself.

The Stratford man somehow led this mundane illiterate early life, then went off to London, wrote Venus, a first work, pretty incredible, then the entire Shakespeare Corpus, then came back to Stratford without any notoriety and lived a mundane existence. It's only compelling and believable for some because it's so miraculous. But in science there are no miracles, hence De Vere.

The videos I will look more into...

But as for miracles, what is miraculous is a mediocre poet becoming a masterful one, and radically changing style and technique. Not that this would be impossible. Keats was a bad poet at nineteen, but by the Hyperion fragments he was a master - a few short years. But in the bad Keats there are glimmers of the great Keats. There is virtually no sign of 'Shakespeare' in De Vere. So I have to believe he took credit for mediocre juvenilia, but let a nobody take credit for the greatest works ever in English letters?

I have no fidelity or affection to this Stratford man, or to any single, specific individual, identified person. It's the work I love. If Oxford wrote the Shakespeare plays, then great! But I don't hear 'Shakespeare' in anything I've read by Oxford. Nothing. Not a puff.
 
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