The Sordid Tale Of Cyntoia Brown

[Derec]

I asked you to substantiate your claim of fact. You have failed to do so. So, your MO is to fling aspersions to deflect from that.

If I stated that the sky is blue you would dispute it. And if I posted links to how light is scattered in the upper atmosphere you'd find some perceived fault. You always do that.

Allen was victimizing in the present by engaging in statutory rape.

He had no way of knowing what her age was. And they didn't have sex, which means he didn't even engage in so-called "statutory rape" anyway.
He was a murder and robbery victim. Cyntoia Brown is a manipulative sociopath that portrays herself as victim when she is a violent piece of shit robber and murderer.

Her victimhood from the past does not justify her actions, but it does provide mitigation for the sentence.

It should not.

As for the rest of her response, you can have no clue what was going in on Ms.Brown's mind when she killed Mr. Allen. While you do not have to believe her story, you cannot honestly say for sure or even beyond a reasonable doubt what was on her mind,

We cannot read minds of any murderers. Does that mean we should let them all out after 15 years? Or only pretty female ones?

Doesn't matter anyone thinks. She was convicted and served 15 years.

She was sentenced to life. The commutation after 15 year is purely political. I think politicians should not be able to free murderers.

Remind us all how many years you thought Timory Loehmann and Frank Garmback should have received for taking Tamir Rice's life.

As far as I recall, they were not charged, much less convicted. While there were many mistakes made by several people including Rice himself, there was certainly no criminal intent on behalf of Loehmann and Garmback. As opposed to Cyntoia Brown, who certainly had criminal intent.
Also, you are derailing.

I read her posts, including her denial of your claim. Once again, you conflate your opinion with fact.

Your lack of reading comprehension is legendary. She thinks teenagers have no choice but to rob people because McD doesn't pay enough.
To quote the cousin of a teenage too-good-for-flipping-burgers burglar ...

 

[laughing dog]

Your opinion is not fact. You made a claim of fact that you cannot substantiate. While there is no shame in it, it is no reason to cast aspersions.

Older minors being charges as adults is a well known fact.

Then you ought to be able to substantiate it. Either produce the evidence or to quote someone early in the thread, STFU.

 

[Derec]

Then you ought to be able to substantiate it.

I could. For anybody else. It's useless with you, since you invariably find some nits to pick.

Either produce the evidence

Do your own homework for a change. This is a well known fact about the US criminal justice system, and if you are really ignorant of it, I suggest you change that.

 

[laughing dog]

If I stated that the sky is blue you would dispute it. And if I posted links to how light is scattered in the upper atmosphere you'd find some perceived fault. You always do that.

Stop acting like Trump and making false accusations to deflect from the truth.

He had no way of knowing what her age was...

Doesn't matter what he knew or didn't. He wanted to have sex with her which would have been statutory rape.

It should not.

Then her past violence should not matter either if you wish to be intellectually honest and consistent.

We cannot read minds of any murderers. Does that mean we should let them all out after 15 years? Or only pretty female ones?

No, it means you should stop conflating your opinions with fact about what did or did not go through anyone's mind. Duh.

She was sentenced to life. The commutation after 15 year is purely political. I think politicians should not be able to free murderers.

Of course it was political - all commutations are political. And why not, after all elected judges (elected politicians) sentence people.

As far as I recall....blah blah blah...

You said 15 years was too little for taking someone's life. And it is not a derail to point out your blatant double standards.

Your lack of reading comprehension is legendary.

My reading comprehension shows that
1) She denies it in post 151 in this thread), and
2) You have yet to produce any evidence to support your claim about what Toni says.

So, are you going to substantiate your claim or continue to blow smoke?

- - - Updated - - -

Then you ought to be able to substantiate it.

I could....

Still no evidence. Why are you so afraid to substantiate your claim of fact? Hmmm.

 

[ruby sparks]

...Cyntoia Brown is a manipulative sociopath that portrays herself as victim when she is a violent piece of shit robber and murderer.

Her victimhood from the past does not justify her actions, but it does provide mitigation for the sentence.

It should not.

As for the rest of her response, you can have no clue what was going in on Ms.Brown's mind when she killed Mr. Allen. While you do not have to believe her story, you cannot honestly say for sure or even beyond a reasonable doubt what was on her mind,

We cannot read minds of any murderers. Does that mean we should let them all out after 15 years? Or only pretty female ones?

Blooming heck derec, that's all a bit harsh and punitive generally, regardless of whether we're talking about a male or a female, or anyone of any ethnicity, or ugliness/prettyness, which I agree should not be deciding factors. Age (at time of crime), yes, perhaps, that should be a relevant factor, along with good behaviour and level of rehabilitation during incarceration.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

He likely didn't even know she was under 18.

Derec, let's say you meet a young looking sex slave that her pimp introduced you to. Wouldn't you ask for identification?

You think she's going to provide something that reveals her true identity?!?!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm sorry if the thought that prostitutes might not actually be prostitutes because they enjoy sex with random creeps upsets you. I’m sorry if you must consider that prostitutes work for the money and would prefer the money with no sex.

I’m sorry if it upsets you that sometimes girls and women fight back.

Once again, you've exposed your sexism. Your argument only makes sense if all men are the enemy.

Excuse me? I’m not the one who believes that all—or most men believe that men are owed sex from minors.

God knows I’m not so delusional to believe that most prostitutes actually enjoy having sex with random strangers.

Try again. I didn't say they enjoy sex with random strangers.

I said your position only makes sense if all men are the enemy because you are justifying attacking random men that simply wanted to have sex with her--but did not actually harm her in any fashion.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm sure you find it upsetting that she preferred to steal than to engage in sexual activity with random strangers, especially since she was unable to legally give consent to sexual activity.

If her procedure was to rob clients rather than have sex with them then how was she a victim?

What kind of sexist pig seriously disagrees with my assertion that most prodtitutes would just take the money without the sex if they had the chance?

I don't believe anyone disagrees with this. That doesn't justify robbing the men, though.

She was forced to prostitute herself; she was the victim of physical, emotional and sexual violence at the hands of her pimp who demanded she bring cash, and was the victim of physical, sexual and emotional abuse before she ran away from home. Since she was a minor, she was a rape victim every single time a trick had sex with her. It is hard to feel sorry for those she robbed in preference to servicing them/bring raped by them.

It looks like she was working with her boyfriend to trick roll, not working as a prostitute. I see no reason to think it wasn't consensual.

Seriously, Loren: if your choice was to blow some guy or take it up the ass—or rob him, which would you choose? I would bet that almost anyone posting on this forum would rob a guy rather than blow him—including you and Derec.

You're assuming she was forced into the situation. I don't think she was. If she really was forced the thing to do was call the cops, neither rob not have sex.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I’m not entirely sure that she committed murder. I think that she had reason to fear for her life. Prostitutes are much more frequently the victims of violence including murder than are johns. He had quite an arsenal under his bed. Odds were much more likely that she would have ended up dead—and we would have never heard about it.

I don’t think he ‘deserved’ to be killed. I can see why she may have felt she didn’t have a choice.

I think we both can agree that she has paid her debt to society. Especially given the circumstances and her youth.

Once again, sticking your head in the sand rather than admit a woman is wrong.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

4. There are fake IDs. Are you familiar with Tracy Lords? Do you also think she was a "sex slave" or something?

Traci Lords had a genuine ID with a wrong date on it--she fooled the government. (Which is a big part of why the producers escaped child porn charges for her movies. It would have been very embarrassing for the government when the defense offered her passport into evidence and asked why they should be expected to do a better job of figuring out her age than the government did.)

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

He likely didn't even know she was under 18.

Derec, let's say you meet a young looking sex slave that her pimp introduced you to. Wouldn't you ask for identification?

You think she's going to provide something that reveals her true identity?!?!

I have no opinion on that and besides if it is fake, then you most often can tell, but even besides that as a person going to have sex with someone, if there is a significant probability that they may be a minor (because they look young as she does), then it is incumbent upon you, TO DO YOUR DUE DILIGENCE. Otherwise, you are being reckless and it is ILLEGAL STATUTORY RAPE among other CRIMINAL OFFENSES. So, don't fucking answer me with a bunch of "?!?!?" You and Derec need to do your best to follow the laws of the land, even if you are not following prostitution laws, you still need to AVOID to the extent possible HAVING SEX WITH A SEX SLAVE. What is it about you that you and Derec can't understand basic principles? Is it that you really don't care about people, that you can't navigate situations that involve probabilities, or that you don't want to follow laws?

 

[Toni]

Excuse me? I’m not the one who believes that all—or most men believe that men are owed sex from minors.

God knows I’m not so delusional to believe that most prostitutes actually enjoy having sex with random strangers.

Try again. I didn't say they enjoy sex with random strangers.

I said your position only makes sense if all men are the enemy because you are justifying attacking random men that simply wanted to have sex with her--but did not actually harm her in any fashion.

Random strangers having sex with underage girls (or boys) harms them. It dehumanizes them. It robs them. It treats them like objects instead of like growing, developing people. Their brains are not developed enough to make a rational decision about being in the sex trade. That's why there are law that state that it is not legal for anyone under the age of 18 to consent to be a prostitute.

 

[Toni]

What kind of sexist pig seriously disagrees with my assertion that most prodtitutes would just take the money without the sex if they had the chance?

I don't believe anyone disagrees with this. That doesn't justify robbing the men, though.

She was forced to prostitute herself; she was the victim of physical, emotional and sexual violence at the hands of her pimp who demanded she bring cash, and was the victim of physical, sexual and emotional abuse before she ran away from home. Since she was a minor, she was a rape victim every single time a trick had sex with her. It is hard to feel sorry for those she robbed in preference to servicing them/bring raped by them.

It looks like she was working with her boyfriend to trick roll, not working as a prostitute. I see no reason to think it wasn't consensual.

Seriously, Loren: if your choice was to blow some guy or take it up the ass—or rob him, which would you choose? I would bet that almost anyone posting on this forum would rob a guy rather than blow him—including you and Derec.

You're assuming she was forced into the situation. I don't think she was. If she really was forced the thing to do was call the cops, neither rob not have sex.

What if she called the cops? Would she have been given a chance at a better, decent life? Been returned to the home she ran away from? Gotten services for her mental health issues? She didn't get those services before, at least not effectively and her history makes it quite clear that she was in dire need of mental health services.

Would the cops have arrested her pimp? Would he have made bail? When he made bail, would he have come for her? He was violent with her before--why wouldn't he just kill her? Why wouldn't she just believe he would kill her?

You think she was making rational decisions from the perspective of an adult with job skills and an education and access to a decent job, housing. Like she had the brain of an adult. She didn't have those things. She wasn't thinking about things the way that you would or I would because she was a teenager! And one who had been abused for much of her life. Who had been abandoned by parents. Who had serious mental health problems

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You think she's going to provide something that reveals her true identity?!?!

I have no opinion on that and besides if it is fake, then you most often can tell, but even besides that as a person going to have sex with someone, if there is a significant probability that they may be a minor (because they look young as she does), then it is incumbent upon you, TO DO YOUR DUE DILIGENCE. Otherwise, you are being reckless and it is ILLEGAL STATUTORY RAPE among other CRIMINAL OFFENSES. So, don't fucking answer me with a bunch of "?!?!?" You and Derec need to do your best to follow the laws of the land, even if you are not following prostitution laws, you still need to AVOID to the extent possible HAVING SEX WITH A SEX SLAVE. What is it about you that you and Derec can't understand basic principles? Is it that you really don't care about people, that you can't navigate situations that involve probabilities, or that you don't want to follow laws?

He's the one that visits prostitutes, not me.

I'm opposed to statutory rape being strict liability but that's purely on a policy level, I have no personal stake in it.

- - - Updated - - -

Excuse me? I’m not the one who believes that all—or most men believe that men are owed sex from minors.

God knows I’m not so delusional to believe that most prostitutes actually enjoy having sex with random strangers.

Try again. I didn't say they enjoy sex with random strangers.

I said your position only makes sense if all men are the enemy because you are justifying attacking random men that simply wanted to have sex with her--but did not actually harm her in any fashion.

Random strangers having sex with underage girls (or boys) harms them. It dehumanizes them. It robs them. It treats them like objects instead of like growing, developing people. Their brains are not developed enough to make a rational decision about being in the sex trade. That's why there are law that state that it is not legal for anyone under the age of 18 to consent to be a prostitute.

I agree that those under 18 shouldn't be prostitutes, but I think the penalty should fall on their pimp, not on johns who don't have a reasonable way to tell her age.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What if she called the cops? Would she have been given a chance at a better, decent life? Been returned to the home she ran away from? Gotten services for her mental health issues? She didn't get those services before, at least not effectively and her history makes it quite clear that she was in dire need of mental health services.

Did she not get mental health services or did she not cooperate with the therapists? If you don't want help there's nothing they can do.

Would the cops have arrested her pimp? Would he have made bail? When he made bail, would he have come for her? He was violent with her before--why wouldn't he just kill her? Why wouldn't she just believe he would kill her?

Once again taking her word as gospel. Sorry, just because she's female doesn't automatically make her in the right.

 

[laughing dog]

What if she called the cops? Would she have been given a chance at a better, decent life? Been returned to the home she ran away from? Gotten services for her mental health issues? She didn't get those services before, at least not effectively and her history makes it quite clear that she was in dire need of mental health services.

Did she not get mental health services or did she not cooperate with the therapists? If you don't want help there's nothing they can do.

Would the cops have arrested her pimp? Would he have made bail? When he made bail, would he have come for her? He was violent with her before--why wouldn't he just kill her? Why wouldn't she just believe he would kill her?

Once again taking her word as gospel. Sorry, just because she's female doesn't automatically make her in the right.

Once again, you dismiss any alternative explanation of possibilities based on an alternative point of view with a handwave. Sorry, just because she's female doesn't \automatically make her in the wrong.

 

[Toni]

What if she called the cops? Would she have been given a chance at a better, decent life? Been returned to the home she ran away from? Gotten services for her mental health issues? She didn't get those services before, at least not effectively and her history makes it quite clear that she was in dire need of mental health services.

Did she not get mental health services or did she not cooperate with the therapists? If you don't want help there's nothing they can do.

Would the cops have arrested her pimp? Would he have made bail? When he made bail, would he have come for her? He was violent with her before--why wouldn't he just kill her? Why wouldn't she just believe he would kill her?

Once again taking her word as gospel. Sorry, just because she's female doesn't automatically make her in the right.

I guess I'm more inclined to give more weight to the dozen or more articles I've read about her, written by people who know or who have interviewed people who know her than I am to the misogynistic ramblings of some middle age incel.

Go figure.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Did she not get mental health services or did she not cooperate with the therapists? If you don't want help there's nothing they can do.



Once again taking her word as gospel. Sorry, just because she's female doesn't automatically make her in the right.

I guess I'm more inclined to give more weight to the dozen or more articles I've read about her, written by people who know or who have interviewed people who know her than I am to the misogynistic ramblings of some middle age incel.

Go figure.

My first inclination would be to side with her but when you look deeper she appears to be a willing participant, not a victim. You're ignoring the fact that those who know the most about the case all think she's not a victim.

 

[Toni]

Did she not get mental health services or did she not cooperate with the therapists? If you don't want help there's nothing they can do.



Once again taking her word as gospel. Sorry, just because she's female doesn't automatically make her in the right.

I guess I'm more inclined to give more weight to the dozen or more articles I've read about her, written by people who know or who have interviewed people who know her than I am to the misogynistic ramblings of some middle age incel.

Go figure.

My first inclination would be to side with her but when you look deeper she appears to be a willing participant, not a victim. You're ignoring the fact that those who know the most about the case all think she's not a victim.

Heh. I’m not ignoring anything. You simply take a letter written by an investigator as the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

My first inclination would be to side with her but when you look deeper she appears to be a willing participant, not a victim. You're ignoring the fact that those who know the most about the case all think she's not a victim.

Heh. I’m not ignoring anything. You simply take a letter written by an investigator as the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

It's not just one investigator who thinks she was a willing participant.