The Thirty Meter Telescope - construction will begin

[skepticalbip]

So you are an unashamed apologist for imperialism. I appreciate the uncommon honesty, but the protestors still disagree with you.

I am not an apologist. I am a realist. I recognize how the world works and even when it works against what I consider "right", I know that the world doesn't really give a shit what I think should be. I am not enough of an egomaniac to believe that the world would care what I think.

Then be a realist about this, and acknowledge thst the protesters are not going to leave the mountain, and that no one gives a shit about the scientific merit of an act of political violence. Be a realist, and see that with every passing year indigenous peoples are less and less willing to accept subjugation by imperial power regimes. If scientists do not realize this, they will find themselves engaged in constant political struggles like this one, in lieu of having time to study any scientific subject.

You paint quite a scenario. Reality is that groups with little power have always throughout history protested. depending on the restraint of those they are protesting against for their safety. Groups with enough power and numbers revolt. Protesting is not a new phenomenon. Historically, protesters are tolerated until they become too much of a nuisance then they are brushed aside.

 

[Politesse]

Then be a realist about this, and acknowledge thst the protesters are not going to leave the mountain, and that no one gives a shit about the scientific merit of an act of political violence. Be a realist, and see that with every passing year indigenous peoples are less and less willing to accept subjugation by imperial power regimes. If scientists do not realize this, they will find themselves engaged in constant political struggles like this one, in lieu of having time to study any scientific subject.

You paint quite a scenario. Reality is that groups with little power have always throughout history protested. depending on the restraint of those they are protesting against for their safety. Groups with enough power and numbers revolt. Protesting is not a new phenomenon. Historically, protesters are tolerated until they become too much of a nuisance then they are brushed aside.

Uh, sometimes they achieve their goals, actually. You're not nearly as acquainted with reality as you think you are if you imagine that conquerors are always successful in subduing oppressed peoples indefinitely. Democratic empires are especially unstable due to the inherent contradiction involved.

Scientists who care about science should care about how their work is seen politically, if they want to be allowed to continue doing it.

 

[skepticalbip]

Then be a realist about this, and acknowledge thst the protesters are not going to leave the mountain, and that no one gives a shit about the scientific merit of an act of political violence. Be a realist, and see that with every passing year indigenous peoples are less and less willing to accept subjugation by imperial power regimes. If scientists do not realize this, they will find themselves engaged in constant political struggles like this one, in lieu of having time to study any scientific subject.

You paint quite a scenario. Reality is that groups with little power have always throughout history protested. depending on the restraint of those they are protesting against for their safety. Groups with enough power and numbers revolt. Protesting is not a new phenomenon. Historically, protesters are tolerated until they become too much of a nuisance then they are brushed aside.

Uh, sometimes they achieve their goals, actually. You're not nearly as acquainted with reality as you think you are if you imagine that conquerors are always successful in subduing oppressed peoples indefinitely. Democratic empires are especially unstable due to the inherent contradiction involved.

Scientists who care about science should care about how their work is seen politically, if they want to be allowed to continue doing it.

Damned, you are all over the place. You are apparently conflating religious beliefs of a small minority of Hawaiians with national politics. As with most such controversies, in this case a small but vocal minority of Hawaiians oppose the project on religious grounds, a small minority of Hawaiians strongly support the project, and the majority of Hawaiians don't give a shit.

 

[Politesse]

Uh, sometimes they achieve their goals, actually. You're not nearly as acquainted with reality as you think you are if you imagine that conquerors are always successful in subduing oppressed peoples indefinitely. Democratic empires are especially unstable due to the inherent contradiction involved.

Scientists who care about science should care about how their work is seen politically, if they want to be allowed to continue doing it.

Damned, you are all over the place. You are apparently conflating religious beliefs of a small minority of Hawaiians with national politics. As with most such controversies, in this case a small but vocal minority of Hawaiians oppose the project on religious grounds, a small minority of Hawaiians strongly support the project, and the majority don't give a shit.

And yet, the protests continue and the scientists involved are expending vast amounts of time on politics rather than science. If a majority of Hawaiians support the project, it is even more stupid that review was bypassed.

 

[skepticalbip]

Uh, sometimes they achieve their goals, actually. You're not nearly as acquainted with reality as you think you are if you imagine that conquerors are always successful in subduing oppressed peoples indefinitely. Democratic empires are especially unstable due to the inherent contradiction involved.

Scientists who care about science should care about how their work is seen politically, if they want to be allowed to continue doing it.

Damned, you are all over the place. You are apparently conflating religious beliefs of a small minority of Hawaiians with national politics. As with most such controversies, in this case a small but vocal minority of Hawaiians oppose the project on religious grounds, a small minority of Hawaiians strongly support the project, and the majority don't give a shit.

And yet, the protests continue and the scientists involved are expending vast amounts of time on politics rather than science. If a majority of Hawaiians support the project, it is even more stupid that review was bypassed.

I didn't say a majority of Hawaiians supported the project. I said the majority don't give a shit.

And protests continue because that is what religious fanatics do when they don't get their way...

 

[Politesse]

Those who portray this as a matter of science vs. religion are either ignorant or idiots, as Hawaiian religion in no way opposes or prevents astronomy. Hawaiians were studying the stars when Europeans were still in the "Dark Ages", and historically relations between Hawaiian people and the observatory have been mostly positive despite differences of opinion. This protest is about a construction project in a particular place and the power regime that enabled it to occur, not whether astronomy should be studied.

 

[skepticalbip]

Those who portray this as a matter of science vs. religion are either ignorant or idiots, as Hawaiian religion in no way opposes or prevents astronomy. This protest is about a construction project in a particular place and the power regime that enabled it to occur, not whether astronomy should be studied.

Just damned, you throw in yet another strawman. Where did I imply that the Hawaiian religious fanatics opposed astronomy?

 

[Politesse]

Those who portray this as a matter of science vs. religion are either ignorant or idiots, as Hawaiian religion in no way opposes or prevents astronomy. This protest is about a construction project in a particular place and the power regime that enabled it to occur, not whether astronomy should be studied.

Just damned, you throw in yet another strawman. Where did I imply that the Hawaiian religious fanatics opposed astronomy?

Didn't @ you.

 

[skepticalbip]

Those who portray this as a matter of science vs. religion are either ignorant or idiots, as Hawaiian religion in no way opposes or prevents astronomy. This protest is about a construction project in a particular place and the power regime that enabled it to occur, not whether astronomy should be studied.

Just damned, you throw in yet another strawman. Where did I imply that the Hawaiian religious fanatics opposed astronomy?

Didn't @ you.

NO!

 

[Gun Nut]

And protests continue because that is what religious fanatics do when they don't get their way...

If there were an ounce of truth to that the world would be a much, much better (and safer) place.

 

[skepticalbip]

And protests continue because that is what religious fanatics do when they don't get their way...

If there were an ounce of truth to that the world would be a much, much better (and safer) place.

You are right if it is large groups of religious fanatics. I was thinking of small groups like this one. One or two hundred fanatical religious native Hawaiians out of almost 300,000 native Hawaiians makes them just a noisy group. Pretty much like the congregation of a small church that the minister riles up to protest a school board meeting for not teaching creationism in biology class.

 

[Derec]

Hawaiian creationists are blocking TMT construction yet again

They already blocked construction 5 years ago and managed to delay start of construction until now due to legal maneuvering.
Now that the court cases have gone against them, they are blocking the roads again. And the feckless authorities are not doing enough to clear them out.
Hundreds of Protestors Block Work Crews Ahead of Thirty Meter Telescope Construction in Hawaii

All of these idiots need to be arrested and charged and the constructing needs to, finally, commence.

 

[lpetrich]

Hawaii telescope operators abandon millions of dollars worth of instrumentation, evacuate employees amid Mauna Kea protests | Fox News

Directors closed the East Asian Observatory located on Mauna Kea on Tuesday as a safety precaution for employees, effectively abandoning millions of dollars worth of instrumentation on telescopes at the facility that require constant maintenance, Hawaii News Now reported.

“This is a risk for us to have to step away at this point,” Jessica Dempsey, deputy director for the East Asian Observatory, told Hawaii News Now. “This is not a decision we came to lightly, but want to emphasize the importance of safety for our staffs and the facilities.”

Gov. David Ige issues emergency proclamation over ongoing TMT protests atop Mauna Kea

Gov. David Ige today announced an emergency proclamation giving law enforcement authority to close off more areas of Mauna Kea to ensure the successful delivery of work vehicles, equipment and work crews to the summit for construction of the $1.4 billion Thirty Meter Telescope.

...
Opponents of the Thirty Meter Telescope said the Daniel K. Inouye Highway was reopened today and police pulled back from the protest site after a deal was brokered with to remove vehicles that had been parked or abandoned on the highway.

What a stupid protest. It's not like some filthy rich jerk wants to build a golf course.

 

[lpetrich]

Hawaii officials say they want peaceful end to protest over giant telescope | US news | The Guardian

Officials in Hawaii have said they will not call up additional national guard troops or use force on peaceful protesters who are blocking access to the state’s highest peak.

... Hawaii governor David Ige said his priority was to keep everyone in the community safe, including the activists. The 80 guard members who have been on the Big Island since the start of the protests will remain, state officials said.

“We will not be utilizing teargas, as some of the rumors have been [saying],” Ige said. “We are looking for the best way forward without hurting anyone.”

... One protester, teacher and cultural practitioner Hinaleimoana Wong-Kalu, said the battle is bigger than the telescope.

“The TMT and Mauna Kea is just the focal point,” she said. “For me it’s just a galvanizing element. It goes back to the role that foreigners played and continue to play in Hawaii.”

... “They capitalize and commercialize our culture,” Wong-Kalu said. “They prostitute the elements that make us Hawaiian. They make it look pretty and make it look alluring in an effort to bring more money into this state.”

I am not terribly surprised. But why a telescope and not (say) a golf course?

But not all Native Hawaiians see the telescope as representative of past wrongs.

“My family feels that they’re trying to use the TMT to boost their sovereignty issue,” said Annette Reyes, who supports the telescope project. “I want sovereignty for the Hawaiian people. I want them to have their country back. But TMT shouldn’t be the lightning rod for it

Native Hawaiians say telescope represents bigger struggle - ABC News

Walter Ritte has been fighting for decades to protect Native Hawaiian rights, inspiring a new generation of activists trying to stop construction of a giant telescope they see as representative of a bigger struggle.

... For activists who say they're protecting Mauna Kea, the long-running telescope fight encapsulates critical issues to Native Hawaiians: the 1893 overthrow of the Hawaiian kingdom, clashes over land and water rights, frustration over tourism, attempts to curb development and questions about how the islands should be governed.

It's an example of battles by Native Americans to preserve ancestral lands, with high-profile protests like Dakota Access pipeline leading to arrests in southern North Dakota in 2016 and 2017.

 

[skepticalbip]

^^^
Those quotes sound like a severe case of xenophobia.

 

[lpetrich]

I have an idea for a visitors' center, one that would acknowledge the first Hawaiians' astronomical heritage. A museum of celestial-navigation techniques, of navigating with the stars. It would have three parts.

1. Polynesian: patterns in the stars. Polynesian and Western constellations: the stars as a Rorschach test.

2. Early-modern European: tools like the sextant for finding stars' positions.

3. Present-day: GPS satellites: artificial "stars".

I'd have interactive exhibits so people can experience how these methods work. Like showing some stars and having people find out which stars to head toward for going to Los Angeles or the Marquesas Islands or some other place.

 

[Politesse]

^^^
Those quotes sound like a severe case of xenophobia.

Being violently colonized will give you that.

 

[Politesse]

I have an idea for a visitors' center, one that would acknowledge the first Hawaiians' astronomical heritage. A museum of celestial-navigation techniques, of navigating with the stars. It would have three parts.

1. Polynesian: patterns in the stars. Polynesian and Western constellations: the stars as a Rorschach test.

2. Early-modern European: tools like the sextant for finding stars' positions.

3. Present-day: GPS satellites: artificial "stars".

I'd have interactive exhibits so people can experience how these methods work. Like showing some stars and having people find out which stars to head toward for going to Los Angeles or the Marquesas Islands or some other place.

The Polynesian astronomical system was considerably more complex than the Greek, it wasn't just about finding constellations. There is a nice exhibit on the subject at the Bernice Pauahi Bishop Museum in Honolulu. Walter Steiger has written a very nice history of astronomy in Hawaii from antiquity to the present, titled The Origins of Astronomy in Hawaii (1995).

 

[Politesse]

Are the astrophycists themselves who plan to use the facility xenophobic, Creationist morons who hate science or whatever? Because a lot of them are protesting the violent treatment of the protesters:

Open letter opposing criminalization of Maunakea protectors

It turns out that even scientists, bumbling socially clueless fools that they supposedly are, can recognize when their cause is being exploited by the state as an extension of violence against indigenous people. Almost 700 scientists have signed the letter so far.

 

[lpetrich]

The Polynesian astronomical system was considerably more complex than the Greek, it wasn't just about finding constellations. There is a nice exhibit on the subject at the Bernice Pauahi Bishop Museum in Honolulu. Walter Steiger has written a very nice history of astronomy in Hawaii from antiquity to the present, titled The Origins of Astronomy in Hawaii (1995).

How so? I'd like to see a comparison.