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The Thirty Meter Telescope - construction will begin

I guess nobody on PD cares about attempts by Hawaiian creationists to block the construction of the Thirty Meter Telescope. :(

I guess only Christian creationists fighting against science is important to some ...


By the way, Warren has jumped the shark.
Presidential candidate Elizabeth Warren tweets support for TMT opponents

This disqualifies her from the presidency in my opinion. If it's between her and Trump, I guess I am voting 3rd party again ...
 
I guess nobody on PD cares about attempts by Hawaiian creationists to block the construction of the Thirty Meter Telescope. :(

I guess only Christian creationists fighting against science is important to some ...


By the way, Warren has jumped the shark.
Presidential candidate Elizabeth Warren tweets support for TMT opponents

This disqualifies her from the presidency in my opinion. If it's between her and Trump, I guess I am voting 3rd party again ...

Or, maybe we could respect the fact that we essentially just rolled in there and said "these islands are ours now" and find a different place to put a 30 meter telescope, like in space.

Also, LOL! As if you had any other intention as to who you would vote for.
 
It doesn't sound like she is against the science - she is against taking of sacred lands.

I agree with Jarhyn - build it in space.
 
Why did you say "creationists" instead of Native Americans or Native Hawaiians?

You thought if you spun it as an attack on science you could manipulate the response, yeah?
 
No, they are not giving up, nor should they. I'd be up there with them myself if I were on the islands right now.
Why? The whole anti-telescope protest is idiotic!

They were never consulted to begin with. You want someone to believe that it is a "great honor" to have your crap built on land they supposedly have joint authority over, maybe ask first.
It's a very big mountain. Plenty of space for their religious ceremonies too. And telescopes have been on Mauna Kea for decades.
Besides, majority of Hawaiians, including "native" Hawaiians support the project.

Not after. Moving in with guns and forcibly taking something is not good PR. If there had been a good faith attempt from the start - where the start is the illegal seizure of the islands by the US at the behest of a megacorporation - this whole thing would never have become the fiasco it has become. Pleading ignorance of politics is not a suitable answer if you're all too willing to exert that political power over those who have been disenfranchised by that political history.
That's ancient history. And again, this is a small, but loud, minority of Hawaiians, that are trying to stop scientific progress because of their stupid creationism. Fuck them and the horse their rode in on!
 
But they do have the coercive power of the state behind them.
That's necessary in a society. The telescope was approved in a lengthy process and there was a lot of litigation over the last few years.
The "protesters" should not be allowed to block construction, because what if we allow any group which is against some project to just block constructing it? Should a few pro lifers get to physically block construction of an abortion clinic for example? Or should "coercive power of the state" remove them and allow construction to proceed?

Many of these protesters are going to end up behind bars.
They should. Actions have consequences.
By the way, they are not "protesters". Protesting is a right, guaranteed by the 1st amendment. It does not include blocking roads and trying to prevent construction.

If this goes like things did in Dakota territory last year, many with grievous physical injuries.
It was not in "Dakota Territory", it was in the state of North Dakota. Dakota Territory has not existed since 1889.
And the idiots who tried to, often with violence, to block the legal construction of that pipeline only have themselves to blame.

US policy on indigenous rights (that there should be none unless granted by self-defined forms of noblesse oblige) has never changed, but different parties take advantage of it at different times. Yesterday it was industrial agribusiness, the next day tourism, today the military-scientific wing.

Just because certain group call themselves "indigenous" does not mean they should have veto power over any project they oppose.
And even the majority of the "indigenous" Hawaiians supports the project.
 
Also, the TMT has 1.4 Billion dollars behind it just in terms of direct investment, let alone the legal and police services they've been receiving from the US Government for free. If that's "far less" than the behemoth of the tourist industry (likely true) it also far more money than the Hawaiian people could possibly raise in defense of their lands.

What "defense"? The mountain is very big. The part where the telescopes are is a tiny fraction of the total. And it is so high up the mountain no other use of that area is possible anyway. This should be a non-issue. The telescopes in no way restrict the use of the mountain for any religious purposes.
 
Trying to bypass the legal process, creating an expensive decade long fiasco and losing public sentiment by aiding in the suppression of a recently conquered people was rational? How?

The only ones trying to bypass the legal process (which approved the telescope) are the antis who are trying to forcibly prevent construction.
 
I guess nobody on PD cares about attempts by Hawaiian creationists to block the construction of the Thirty Meter Telescope. :(

I guess only Christian creationists fighting against science is important to some ...


By the way, Warren has jumped the shark.
Presidential candidate Elizabeth Warren tweets support for TMT opponents

This disqualifies her from the presidency in my opinion. If it's between her and Trump, I guess I am voting 3rd party again ...

Or, maybe we could respect the fact that we essentially just rolled in there and said "these islands are ours now" and find a different place to put a 30 meter telescope, like in space.

Also, LOL! As if you had any other intention as to who you would vote for.

Ah but putting things in space is expensive. Taking land from indigenous people is cheap, that's the whole point.
 
Hawaiians were studying the stars when Europeans were still in the "Dark Ages",
Ah yes, the myth of the supposed scientific superiority of any non-Europeans. Note that Greeks (which is part of Europe last time I checked) were studying stars long before then.
 Ancient Greek Astronomy

and historically relations between Hawaiian people and the observatory have been mostly positive despite differences of opinion. This protest is about a construction project in a particular place and the power regime that enabled it to occur, not whether astronomy should be studied.

The construction project is in the same general place as the other telescopes. There is no rational basis for this protest.
 
Are the astrophycists themselves who plan to use the facility xenophobic, Creationist morons who hate science or whatever? Because a lot of them are protesting the violent treatment of the protesters:
Virtue signalling. Disappointing, but unfortunately au courant politically. :(
 
Or, maybe we could respect the fact that we essentially just rolled in there and said "these islands are ours now" and find a different place to put a 30 meter telescope, like in space.

- Hawaii has been a US state 1959. It has been a US territory since 1898. Do we really want to refight battles from the late 19th century now?
- A telescope 30m in diameter is way too big to be built in space at this time. For comparison, Hubble's main mirror has a diameter of only 2.4m.
- Majority of Hawaiians, including most "native" Hawaiians, support the TMT project. This is about a loud minority.

Look at this handy chart of telescopes.
4dd84d8563f4e9c58780e06ec67465a4.jpg
Note also that a few of the existing telescopes on this list are on the summit of Mauna Kea. That's because of superior viewing conditions there.

Also, LOL! As if you had any other intention as to who you would vote for.
I voted for Obama twice. Who by the way, could not have become president if the "Hawaii should not be part of US" crowd had their way. :)
 
It doesn't sound like she is against the science - she is against taking of sacred lands.
Not again with the "sacred lands" nonsense. People should not be able to declare a whole mountain off limits just by declaring it "sacred". And besides, it's a large mountain, with plenty of space for both telescopes and religious activities. Lastly, there have been telescopes on Mauna Kea for decades.

I agree with Jarhyn - build it in space.
Easy to say, not feasible to actually accomplish.
 
Why did you say "creationists" instead of Native Americans or Native Hawaiians?
Because they are talking about goddesses and nonsense like that. And because it is hardly all "native" Hawaiians who object to the project.
Poll shows strong public support for Thirty Meter Telescope

West Hawaii Today said:
About 77 percent of the respondents said they support it, while 15 percent oppose it and 8 percent were undecided.

The poll found that support has especially grown among Hawaii natives. About 72 percent of native respondents supported the telescope in the latest poll. Two years ago the native approval was only 39 percent.

You thought if you spun it as an attack on science you could manipulate the response, yeah?
It is an attack on science though. But on the left, anything labeled "native" or "indigenous" is automatically supported, no matter what. Sad.
 
Note that two threads on the same topic have now been merged.

What mod hath joined, let no one put asunder.

Rob
 
Why We Shouldn't Build the 30-Meter Telescope on Mauna Kea - YouTube
Rebecca Watson argues that the "Native" Hawaiian population has been screwed over and that the mountain peak has been mismanaged. Hawaii was just plain conquered by the US, and was later annexed as a state. The mountain peak accumulated a lot of garbage for a while -- garbage which had to be airlifted out. Also, the telescopes there only got proper permits well after the fact.

Opponents of the Thirty Meter Telescope fight the process, not science - "Painting Native Hawaiian culture as against modern science is a false dichotomy, explains Rosie Alegado."
So often, tropes about science versus religion assume Western science and use ‘religion’ as shorthand for Christianity. But that framing is not always accurate. Science is part of culture, and how science is done depends on the culture in which it is practised. Consider how many medical studies were based on male mice and male patients, and so missed important biomedical insights.

When the eighteenth-century British explorer James Cook arrived in Hawaii, he encountered a thriving civilization with a system of rules and regulations based on sustainability. Ancient Hawaiians realized that to maintain a large, healthy population, areas rich in resources such as rainfall and biodiversity must remain undisturbed. The wilderness of the mountains was the realm of gods (wao akua) forbidden to humans, whereas the lowlands where intensive agriculture and aquaculture took place were the realm of people (wao kanaka). Such evidence-based Indigenous practices are still applied today in fisheries conservation.

...
As a faculty member at the University of Hawaii at Manoa, I hold my university accountable for much of the ill will the community feels. A lack of transparency and egregious mismanagement of Mauna Kea has persisted since the earliest arrangements between astronomers and the university. In late July, a University of Hawaii promotional video admitted that a 1998 state audit highlighting these deficiencies was a “wake-up call” that brought an era of more-responsive management, but I consider that neither the state of Hawaii nor the university has met their obligations.

I think we need to halt construction and restart a conversation between the state, the universities and Native Hawaiians about potential alternative futures for Mauna Kea — which include restoring the ecological damage caused by the 13 other telescopes on the mountain and dismantling the 5 telescopes slated for decommissioning. Such steps would provide credibility that the University of Hawaii recognizes its responsibility to take care of Mauna Kea. Moving the TMT to an alternative site in the Canary Islands should also be seriously discussed in consideration of the community.

Governor Rescinds Emergency Proclamation on Mauna Kea | Big Island Now
Gov. David Ige has rescinded the emergency proclamation he declared a couple weeks back to allocate resources and expedite construction of the Thirty Meter Telescope (TMT) atop Mauna Kea, a decision protesters and several local, state and federal politicians have called for in recent days.

...
Gov. Ige also told reporters the Hawai‘i Department of Land and Natural Resources (DLNR) has approved a two-year extension, allowing the state to push back construction of TMT more than two years until September of 2021. Construction of the telescope may take up to 10 years to complete.
 
I am not surprised that the Elevator chick is backing the antis.


The process has already taken years - how many more years should it take? The antis just want to delay the project until TMT people just give up and build on Canary Islands - which would be a loss for Hawaii, a loss for US and a loss for science.

What coward! He needs to stand by TMT and remove those who block construction. The delays have gone on long enough!
 
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