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The True Republican™

A surplus is only immoral when it's in excess of what's needed to address the next recession. In an ideal world the government debt would be paid off halfway through the growth phase, the surplus would be wiped out halfway through the next recession. The long term average would be zero.

Only if the government never builds anything or buys anything that lasts more than one budget cycle. Which would itself be an immoral abdication of the duty of a government towards its citizens.

If something provided by government today is still going to be in use in 10 years time, then the government should borrow to pay for it, so that the citizens pay for it over its useful life. It is unreasonable, unfair and unnecessary for the public to pay upfront for long-lived infrastructure - whether that is aircraft carriers or freeway overpasses.

Hell, some appreciating assets, such as real estate, even make sense to borrow for if you are running a household economy. There is certainly no need for a government to eschew debt when acquiring such assets.
 
Governments SHOULD run a deficit. It should be approximately equal to the fraction of expenditure that is on items that will be used into the future - if they build a bridge that will be in use in 50 years, then the people who use the bridge 50 years from now should pay their share. They neither need nor deserve to be subsidised by us.

A surplus is immoral - at the point where the deficit falls below the long term infrastructure spending, taxation becomes unjustified. I have no problem with faxes to pay for government spending. But taking more than they spend is simply wrong.

Governments don't retire, or get sick, or get fired - their income is not at risk in the way that a householder's income is at risk. Saving for a rainy day is nonsensical for sovereign governments.

This insane idea that government finance is basically household finance writ large needs to die. Deficit spending should be routine and normal. Surplus should be rare - and a small surplus is as much an indicator of a problem as is a very large deficit.

You can tell when deficit is too large, because you get excessive inflation. Responding to inflation by raising taxes is the answer. If that puts you in surplus, then there's a bubble forming - and deflation asset bubbles is the one justifiable reason for running a surplus.

That's not the Keynesian theory. According to Keynes, deficits should be run during recessions, and surplusses should be run when during times of growth. The average budget surplus/deficit should be zero.

The problem is, no mainstream politician (and only mainstream politicians are considered to be viable and worth voting for ... just imagine what would happen if people voted for good candidates for a change...) can resist spending the money. No mainstream politician can cut any budget because no mainstream politician has the fortitude to listen to the screams of those benefiting from those budget items.

The idea of constant deficits fits in better with Keynes' idea of "in the long run we're all dead".

This insane idea that the government must always run a deficit needs to die. Even Keynes didn't go that far. He was wrong about almost everything, but the idea of constant deficits (which are the same as constant inflation) is even more wrong. This is comparable to Keynes saying "2+2=5" and someone saying "Keynes was wrong, 2+buffalo=creationism".

Keynes viewed the economy as composed of many trends all poised to spiral out of control, barely held in check by other trends poised to spiral out of control in the other direction. He saw the guiding hand of government as the best way to balance these competing and conflicting trends. Of course the correct view of economics is equilibrium instead of spirals. But there is one trend that does become a death spiral and that is when the idea of constant deficits takes root. Then you get, slowly or quickly, the death spiral that only ends with runaway debt and inflation. It is inevitable, although not always quick.

Governments don't "get sick" but they do go bankrupt. They don't "get fired", they get overthrown. They don't retire, but they do collapse.

Even Keynes, who was very wrong, knew better than to advocate always running a deficit.
 
OK, so you rumbled my big secret - I am not a fundamentalist Keynesian literalist.

As I never claimed to be, I'm not sure why that is relevant.

My argument still stands, despite your attempt to refute someone else's argument. :rolleyes:

Constant low level deficits that fund infrastructure are fine. As is constant low levels of inflation. Unless you are worried that we might reach the end of the set of natural numbers?
 
Governments SHOULD run a deficit. It should be approximately equal to the fraction of expenditure that is on items that will be used into the future - if they build a bridge that will be in use in 50 years, then the people who use the bridge 50 years from now should pay their share. They neither need nor deserve to be subsidised by us.

A surplus is immoral - at the point where the deficit falls below the long term infrastructure spending, taxation becomes unjustified. I have no problem with faxes to pay for government spending. But taking more than they spend is simply wrong.

Governments don't retire, or get sick, or get fired - their income is not at risk in the way that a householder's income is at risk. Saving for a rainy day is nonsensical for sovereign governments.

This insane idea that government finance is basically household finance writ large needs to die. Deficit spending should be routine and normal. Surplus should be rare - and a small surplus is as much an indicator of a problem as is a very large deficit.

You can tell when deficit is too large, because you get excessive inflation. Responding to inflation by raising taxes is the answer. If that puts you in surplus, then there's a bubble forming - and deflation asset bubbles is the one justifiable reason for running a surplus.

Govts should run deficits when they desire to be expansionary in regard to the private sector.

If inflation is a problem, then you don't want a deficit, you want to contract, so a surplus would be in order.

And it also depends on the foreign sector. A trade deficit will drain the private sector without a govt deficit. Conversely, an exporter, such as Germany, can run govt and trade surpluses.

National debts don't have to be paid back; it's what a society owes to itself.
 
That's not the Keynesian theory. According to Keynes, deficits should be run during recessions, and surplusses should be run when during times of growth. The average budget surplus/deficit should be zero..

Keynes wrote in an era of commodity currency i.e. gold standard. The money supply was tied to gold. That hasn't been the case for 50 years. The entire planet is fiat currency.
 
That's not the Keynesian theory. According to Keynes, deficits should be run during recessions, and surplusses should be run when during times of growth. The average budget surplus/deficit should be zero..

Keynes wrote in an era of commodity currency i.e. gold standard. The money supply was tied to gold. That hasn't been the case for 50 years. The entire planet is fiat currency.

Doesn't change the underlying argument, except to amplify the risk that a government runs when it is foolish enough to embrace the "always run a deficit" platform.
 
Keynes wrote in an era of commodity currency i.e. gold standard. The money supply was tied to gold. That hasn't been the case for 50 years. The entire planet is fiat currency.

Doesn't change the underlying argument, except to amplify the risk that a government runs when it is foolish enough to embrace the "always run a deficit" platform.

It does change it. By definition, commodity currency supply is limited. There is no limit to a fiat currency.

As long as there is productive capacity to absorb the spending, there will be no inflation.

And if there is too much inflation then is the time to run surpluses, to remove the superfluous spending capacity.

Deficits by themselves aren't either good or bad.
 
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