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The two types of Feminism

rousseau said:
Too bad we only have a bunch of white males chiming in on this thread, and few people who have actually spent significant time involved with feminism and women's issues.

This thread is an invitation to everybody. Perhaps some feminists and others who have actually spent significant time involved with feminism and women's issues will be along shortly. Perhaps some who have actually spent significant time involved with feminism and women's issues have already commented and you have erroneously prejudged them as not being feminists.

Secondly, what expertise is needed to make or understand or respond to the observations made and questions posed in the OP? They are rather simple and straightforward. I am not convinced that years of "gender studies" or "women's studies" creates a mind that can better analyze it with better objective clarity. I'm not confident that having a vagina would help immensely here either. But if that's what is called for, I have seen many similar posts made by women. I was actually reading one when I was inspired to create this thread.

https://www.quora.com/Why-dont-we-need-feminism (But we DO need feminism - just not that type)
 
you see two slightly different approaches to the same goal

I am not convinced it is the same goal at all.

decided that both are "feminism" and that you can now denigrate the term based on disliking one approach.

No. I am specifically asking for a way to distinguish the two precisely to NOT do that. Why do you insist on reversing my stance in your mind?

And how can I show support for the first but opposition to the second in just a few words?
"it's all well and good that we let women think they're equal, so long as the bitches don't get uppity about it"

Again, why do you ignore the question and seek to replace it with a strawman?
 
rousseau said:
Too bad we only have a bunch of white males chiming in on this thread, and few people who have actually spent significant time involved with feminism and women's issues.

This thread is an invitation to everybody. Perhaps some feminists will be along shortly. Perhaps some have already commented and you have erroneously prejudged them as not being feminists.

Secondly, what expertise is needed to make or understand or respond to the observations made and questions posed in the OP? They are rather simple and straightforward. I am not convinced that years of "gender studies" or "women's studies" creates a mind that can better analyze it with better objective clarity. I'm not confident that having a vagina would help immensely here either. But if that's what is called for, I have seen many similar posts made by women. I was actually reading one when I was inspired to create this thread.

https://www.quora.com/Why-dont-we-need-feminism (But we DO need feminism - just not that type)

There's the problem right there.
 
There's the problem right there.

Are you of the mind that years of "gender studies" or "women's studies" creates a mind that can better analyze the points in the OP with better objective clarity? If so, what gives you that idea? And what in the OP is so complicated that it requires complicated learned analysis?
 
There's the problem right there.

Are you of the mind that years of "gender studies" or "women's studies" creates a mind that can better analyze the points in the OP with better objective clarity? If so, what gives you that idea?

My post implies that your starting point to this discussion is that people who literally spend periods of their life studying the topic are less informed than you, and that maybe this is a sign of bias due to your demographic and background, and that we need a diversity of opinion when discussing a topic.. like say, people who have studied the topic.
 
rousseau said:
My post implies that your starting point to this discussion is that people who literally spend periods of their life studying the topic are less informed than you, and that maybe this is a sign of bias due to your demographic and background, and that we need a diversity of opinion when discussing a topic.. like say, people who have studied the topic.

I didn't say they are less informed. I said I am not confident that they can analyze what I said in the OP with better objective clarity, partly because I don't think much analysis is needed (would love to be proven wrong), and second because many of those programs create extreme bias taking away from rather than adding to objective clarity. There are sure to be some who are not so biased and who indeed are far more informed than I, but what is so complicated in the OP requiring such knowledge? I'd love to see it if there is some big insight I am missing here, but unlike you, I see no indication that there is. And again, the thread is open to it, and invites it.
 
Again, why do you ignore the question and seek to replace it with a strawman?
because the question is fundamentally disingenuous, for a variety of reasons.

let's start out with the most base level logical function of social and cultural change:
barring an act of overwhelming violence that disrupts the established order and installs a new governmental system, the only way to affect change is to either convince the ruling class to enact new rules, or to get enough of the citizenry on your side that they apply collective pressure to the ruling class to enact new rules - do you agree with this assessment?
it's a kind of tragic fact, but a fact nonetheless, that throughout history all the great gains made by not-white-straight-men were pretty much only possible because white-straight-men decided to allow it to happen, which is pretty fucked up but that's the way the world works.

so taking this underlying premise about how things are done, you're pretty much left with two choices when it comes to the broad strokes of a movement: ask politely and hope they agree to your terms, or raise hell until they agree to your terms.
now obviously both of these tactics come in a variety of forms - you could make an argument that suffrage was asking politely, and women's liberation in the 70s was raising hell (just as an example).

now, assuming that none of the above is particularly disagreeable to you, we're now talking about what amounts to the efficacy of tactics when it comes to instituting change.
the question then is: is it more effective to bring about change by being polite about it and asking nicely, or is it more effective to make demands and raise hell until they're met?
this question is complicated and has a lot of layers to it because it has to be considered both from the perspective of the ruling class (whether the antics of the masses are having any impact) and also from the perspective of the minority (whether being polite has gotten them anywhere and whether lack of change has caused a frustration-induced level of aggression on the topic) - AND one has to consider obvious vs. subtle change, like for example a law stating women and men must be paid equally vs. a corporate culture of promoting men almost exclusively.
IMO there are different times when different tactics are the better option, sometimes you start with the carrot and move on the stick... maybe you ask nicely to be able to vote, and you raise hell to be able to get abortions, for example.

but, and i think this is the big part that speaks to rousseau's point, is that a gaggle of straight white men are fundamentally incapable of making that determination on behalf of women in any way that isn't disgustingly condescending.
not to put too fine a point on it, but you don't get to decide what is or isn't feminism, and what is or isn't an appropriate tactic for women (or any other minority struggling for equality) to try and achieve their goals... not even getting into the conversation about how loosely defined non-homogeneous conceptual causes like "feminism" are basically impossible to singularly identify... and quite honestly a white male grousing to his compatriots about how they need to think up a new term for him because he doesn't like some aspect of a thing and doesn't want to call it that comes across as really smug.
 
because the question is fundamentally disingenuous

No. It was an honest question, consistent throughout the OP. And you were disingenuous and rather rude in demanding otherwise. Likewise with your demand that I wish to equate both types of feminism under one label while calling for exactly the opposite, and also while you yourself demand they both share the same label. It is bad form to dismiss what somebody actually writes and insert your own words in their place.

now, assuming that none of the above is particularly disagreeable to you, we're now talking about what amounts to the efficacy of tactics when it comes to instituting change.
the question then is: is it more effective to bring about change by being polite about it and asking nicely, or is it more effective to make demands and raise hell until they're met?

You seem to be thinking I am talking about tactics when I am talking about ideology. I have no problem with raising hell. Raising hell in the 70s, burning bras, demanding the dismantling of prescribed gender roles, etc, are about equal rights and equal respect and valuing of women. The fight for equal pay for equal work (when its honest) is a continuation of the same, as is today's demand for women to be allowed to go topless, or wear hijab etc as they please, and as is demands for birth control being funded etc. That all the first type of feminism I'm talking about.

The second type is when "feminists" infantalize women, treat them as weak defacto victims, blame everything on the "patriarchy" while at the same time patronizing women, and become barriers rather than allies in the fight for equal standing and equal respect with men. These are two very different groups of people with two very different agendas. Tactics are not the problem here.

a gaggle of straight white men are fundamentally incapable of making that determination on behalf of women in any way that isn't disgustingly condescending.
not to put too fine a point on it, but you don't get to decide what is or isn't feminism, and what is or isn't an appropriate tactic for women (or any other minority struggling for equality) to try and achieve their goals... not even getting into the conversation about how loosely defined non-homogeneous conceptual causes like "feminism" are basically impossible to singularly identify... and quite honestly a white male grousing to his compatriots about how they need to think up a new term for him because he doesn't like some aspect of a thing and doesn't want to call it that comes across as really smug.

First, I'm not a straight white man. I am a bisexual asian man. Second, it is sexist and possibly racist to seek to bar me or white males or anybody from such a discussion. Tom Sawyer said it well. The personal characteristics of who makes a point does not set the validity of that point. The point should stand or fall on its own merit. Third, what you've been saying here a little off topic from the OP and I'd like to get back to it.

How can I help, encourage and show support for the first type of Feminist in the OP while simultaneously discouraging and showing opposition to the second type of Feminist in the OP? Perhaps re-read what I wrote there without the assumptions and demands that I meant something I didn't? You may have some insight I lack as rousseau noted.
 
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Its a matter of evolution, asking for an inch and then going for a mile.

First the feminist wanted pure equality but in the process got pissed off so then decided to stereotype, group identify, and man hate.


The tipping point is the abandonment of equality

Perhaps the one spun out of the other. Perhaps the one is exploited by the other. They really are at odds with one another in many ways, yet share the same label. It doesn't help women when women are infantilized, patronized, and treated as defacto victims of oppression just for being women. Blind accusations of misogyny or misogyny-internalizing against women who say "hey wait a minute here....", who want to be traditional mothers or who want to be models etc doesn't help women either. I see an actual Feminist movement and need for a movement for equal and fair treatment towards women (ie, same pay for same work, actual misogyny, Donald Trump's outbursts, actual oppression in the middle east, etc) on the one hand and people using Feminism as a tool to virtue signal, profit, gain power, exploit women, and attack men on the other. I would like a proper name for the latter to distinguish it from the former.
 
How can I help, encourage and show support for the first type of Feminist in the OP while simultaneously discouraging and showing opposition to the second type of Feminist in the OP?
there's a lot to unpack here and i'd really like to, but ultimately when it comes to a message board i can either ignore the intent of the poster and bang on my hobby horse, indulge in the flippery of the OP, or just ignore the thread.
i should have done the last one, i refuse to do the second, and to continue to do the first would basically make me derec.
so, i'm out.
 
rousseau said:
My post implies that your starting point to this discussion is that people who literally spend periods of their life studying the topic are less informed than you, and that maybe this is a sign of bias due to your demographic and background, and that we need a diversity of opinion when discussing a topic.. like say, people who have studied the topic.

I didn't say they are less informed. I said I am not confident that they can analyze what I said in the OP with better objective clarity, partly because I don't think much analysis is needed (would love to be proven wrong), and second because many of those programs create extreme bias taking away from rather than adding to objective clarity. There are sure to be some who are not so biased and who indeed are far more informed than I, but what is so complicated in the OP requiring such knowledge? I'd love to see it if there is some big insight I am missing here, but unlike you, I see no indication that there is. And again, the thread is open to it, and invites it.

I'm not saying there are no elements of your perspective that are accurate, but the bolded is exactly why more perspectives are needed.
 
I said I am not confident that they can analyze what I said in the OP with better objective clarity, partly because I don't think much analysis is needed
That right is a tipoff of your bias. Your original question, as asked, ignores the many gradations of feminism (as many have noted) = which means there is much less clarity to start than you believe. In effect, you arbitrarily divided feminists into two different group identities. Which more than ironic given your persistent claim that people should be treated as members of groups. And why someone would be worried about "extreme bias" from experts but no worry about "extreme bias" from non-experts is puzzling.

The obvious answer to your alleged dilemma is to simply advocate for the ideas and policies that you prefer or feel are the best and argue against the policies and ideas you feel are bad. they will help or hinder without worrying about which group your positions helps or hinders.
 
^ Hopefully some will show up :) Door is wide open.

I'm yet to come across many at this forum who identify or are studied in women's issues. People who are sympathetic, but not a lot of feminists.

Well, in the absence of anyone with the qualifications to cast doubt on the validity of my claim, I'll say that I'm an expert on women's issues - such is my people's burden.

I think that both types of feminism mentioned in the OP are based on the same motivation - they see an issue with women's equality and they're seeking to remedy it. One just does it well and one does it poorly. The underlying ideology and all that are pretty much identical, but they have different methods of going about it. It's like how if two people have the motivation to get rich and one works hard in school and gets a good education leading to a high paying field which he works diligently at to move up in his company and the other maxes out his credit cards every night in the casino trying to hit it big, their actions and results are completely different, but they're based on going for the exact same thing in different ways.

The "authoritarian" feminists, for lack of a better term, feel that they're fighting against oppression and need to fight back against groups who are actively keeping them down and the "egalitarian" feminists, again for lack of a better term, feel the oppression is mainly an historical artifact and they'll get further working together with others to get equal footing where it's lacking and maintaining it where it's already been achieved. Regardless of whether they're right or wrong, they're both going for the same basic thing in different ways.
 
Any sufficiently large group of well meaning people will show a wide range of variation in competence.

Why anyone is surprised to find such a variation would be a mystery to me, were it not so abundantly clear that the answer to that question lies in the question itself.
 
According to Wikipedia, here's a partial list of types of feminism.

Anarcha-feminism
Atheist feminism
Black feminism
Chicana feminism
Christian feminism
Conservative feminism
Cultural feminism
Difference feminism
Equality feminism
Fat feminism
First-wave feminism
Fourth-wave feminism
French feminism
Global feminism
Hip-hop feminism
Individualist feminism
Islamic feminism
Jewish feminism
Lesbian feminism
Lipstick feminism
Liberal feminism
Material feminism
Marxist feminism
Networked feminism
Neofeminism
New feminism
Postcolonial feminism
Postmodern feminism
Post-structural feminism
Pro-feminism
Pro-life feminism
Radical feminism
Separatist feminism
Second-wave feminism
Sex-positive feminism
Sikh feminism
Socialist feminism
Standpoint feminism
State feminism
Structuralist feminism
Third-wave feminism
Transfeminism
Transnational feminism

Based on that list, feminism includes conservative feminism, liberal feminism, individualist feminism, and socialist feminism. What doesn't in include?

Personally, what I see from the debates going on, is Intersectional Feminism versus Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism.
 
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