The vanguard of the Caravan is already in Mexico City, more than halfway to the border

[PyramidHead]

And so those workers cast the "raise capital" spell they learned from their Marxist textbooks???

No, you pay them enough that they can afford to buy your products, and presto: PROFITS!

1) That's long-discredited garbage.

2) The issue is where the capital comes from to expand the means of production by 20%, not where the sales come from. It takes a long time for sales to turn into capital.

I see where the problem is now.

You are assuming that nothing can be really changed about the way resources are currently produced and distributed (private investment and ownership, market competition, wage labor for survival, concentration of wealth in a minority of hands), and within this existing framework, it is indeed the case that adding more workers tends to lower wages.

I am taking the existence of poor families who need a place to live and are willing to work for it, but who are denied entry by a country with ample resources to satisfy both needs because moderate libertarians lack compassion and imagination, as powerful evidence that the way resources are currently produced and distributed must be changed.

To look at a situation where a few thousand migrants with nothing in their pockets and nowhere to turn simply cannot be accommodated nor tolerated by a country that has everything in abundance, and say "sales take a long time to turn into capital, therefore no action is required by us at this time", is why everybody thinks Americans are greedy scumbags.

 

[TSwizzle]

A solution may be in sight, pay them $50k and they will go home;

Two groups of migrants from Central America marched to the American consulate in Tijuana, Mexico, yesterday, with a list of demands to the Trump administration. One of them asked the American president to either let them in the country or pay them $50,000 each to go home, a report said. The first group, including about 100 migrants, arrived at the consulate around 11am on Tuesday. Alfonso Guerreo Ulloa, an organizer from Honduras, told the San Diego Union-Tribune that the $50,000 figure is not a very big sum. 'It may seem like a lot of money to you,' he said. 'But it is a small sum compared to everything the United States has stolen from Honduras.' Thanks to this amount, he said, the migrants could return home and start a small business there. The caravan migrants also asked the US to remove Honduran President Juan Orlando Hernandez from office.

DailyMail

 

[starwater]

A solution may be in sight, pay them $50k and they will go home;

Two groups of migrants from Central America marched to the American consulate in Tijuana, Mexico, yesterday, with a list of demands to the Trump administration. One of them asked the American president to either let them in the country or pay them $50,000 each to go home, a report said. The first group, including about 100 migrants, arrived at the consulate around 11am on Tuesday. Alfonso Guerreo Ulloa, an organizer from Honduras, told the San Diego Union-Tribune that the $50,000 figure is not a very big sum. 'It may seem like a lot of money to you,' he said. 'But it is a small sum compared to everything the United States has stolen from Honduras.' Thanks to this amount, he said, the migrants could return home and start a small business there. The caravan migrants also asked the US to remove Honduran President Juan Orlando Hernandez from office.

DailyMail

I agree with this in principle. Fix what is broken in their own country to allow them to stay. Giving them money outright? Not so much. But a path to help them help themselves seems to be the right solution.

 

[PyramidHead]

A solution may be in sight, pay them $50k and they will go home;

Two groups of migrants from Central America marched to the American consulate in Tijuana, Mexico, yesterday, with a list of demands to the Trump administration. One of them asked the American president to either let them in the country or pay them $50,000 each to go home, a report said. The first group, including about 100 migrants, arrived at the consulate around 11am on Tuesday. Alfonso Guerreo Ulloa, an organizer from Honduras, told the San Diego Union-Tribune that the $50,000 figure is not a very big sum. 'It may seem like a lot of money to you,' he said. 'But it is a small sum compared to everything the United States has stolen from Honduras.' Thanks to this amount, he said, the migrants could return home and start a small business there. The caravan migrants also asked the US to remove Honduran President Juan Orlando Hernandez from office.

DailyMail

I agree with this in principle. Fix what is broken in their own country to allow them to stay. Giving them money outright? Not so much. But a path to help them help themselves seems to be the right solution.

What makes someone responsible for their birthplace, such that it becomes "their own country" that should be rehabilitated by them rather than abandoned when it becomes oppressive?

Do you feel the same way about the people who left British rule to settle in America? Should they have "helped themselves" in some way instead of staking out a future elsewhere?

 

[Politesse]

A solution may be in sight, pay them $50k and they will go home;

Two groups of migrants from Central America marched to the American consulate in Tijuana, Mexico, yesterday, with a list of demands to the Trump administration. One of them asked the American president to either let them in the country or pay them $50,000 each to go home, a report said. The first group, including about 100 migrants, arrived at the consulate around 11am on Tuesday. Alfonso Guerreo Ulloa, an organizer from Honduras, told the San Diego Union-Tribune that the $50,000 figure is not a very big sum. 'It may seem like a lot of money to you,' he said. 'But it is a small sum compared to everything the United States has stolen from Honduras.' Thanks to this amount, he said, the migrants could return home and start a small business there. The caravan migrants also asked the US to remove Honduran President Juan Orlando Hernandez from office.

DailyMail

They have a point; if we're going to rule them like a colony when it suits us, reciprocal responsibility for problems is also morally implied.

But I don't see how a cash payout to a couple of political dissidents would accomplish this. Of course, they know perfectly well that this would hardly be likely to happen. It is a stunt, nothing more.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

While the subject is out there, I will also not move into the US illegally if they give me $50,000.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So we're more than a month and 36 pages into this thread. The "invasion" hasn't exactly overwhelmed America and the border cities/states (I live in one of the latter) haven't burned to the ground or been wiped out by terrorists.

Are we still fear-mongering about this caravan?

The election is over, it's a non-issue.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

1) That's long-discredited garbage.

2) The issue is where the capital comes from to expand the means of production by 20%, not where the sales come from. It takes a long time for sales to turn into capital.

I see where the problem is now.

You are assuming that nothing can be really changed about the way resources are currently produced and distributed (private investment and ownership, market competition, wage labor for survival, concentration of wealth in a minority of hands), and within this existing framework, it is indeed the case that adding more workers tends to lower wages.

No. I'm saying such things take time. So long as the immigration rate is low enough the market reacts adequately, the negatives are very minor. If the immigration rate exceeds the ability of the market to react you get problems.

I am taking the existence of poor families who need a place to live and are willing to work for it, but who are denied entry by a country with ample resources to satisfy both needs because moderate libertarians lack compassion and imagination, as powerful evidence that the way resources are currently produced and distributed must be changed.

Because we realize your approach turns us all into poor families.

To look at a situation where a few thousand migrants with nothing in their pockets and nowhere to turn simply cannot be accommodated nor tolerated by a country that has everything in abundance, and say "sales take a long time to turn into capital, therefore no action is required by us at this time", is why everybody thinks Americans are greedy scumbags.

I have never said their asylum petitions should be categorically rejected. I was talking about the open borders approach.

 

[PyramidHead]

No. I'm saying such things take time. So long as the immigration rate is low enough the market reacts adequately, the negatives are very minor. If the immigration rate exceeds the ability of the market to react you get problems.

...if you take the reaction speed of the market as a force of unalterable natural law that must be accommodated, even to the detriment of human rights.
I take the inviolable humanity of others as a force of unalterable natural law that must be accommodated, even to the detriment of markets.

That's the difference between a liberal and a leftist.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No. I'm saying such things take time. So long as the immigration rate is low enough the market reacts adequately, the negatives are very minor. If the immigration rate exceeds the ability of the market to react you get problems.

...if you take the reaction speed of the market as a force of unalterable natural law that must be accommodated, even to the detriment of human rights.
I take the inviolable humanity of others as a force of unalterable natural law that must be accommodated, even to the detriment of markets.

That's the difference between a liberal and a leftist.

So you're going to wave the marxist wand and cast an increase capital spell?

 

[PyramidHead]

No. I'm saying such things take time. So long as the immigration rate is low enough the market reacts adequately, the negatives are very minor. If the immigration rate exceeds the ability of the market to react you get problems.

...if you take the reaction speed of the market as a force of unalterable natural law that must be accommodated, even to the detriment of human rights.
I take the inviolable humanity of others as a force of unalterable natural law that must be accommodated, even to the detriment of markets.

That's the difference between a liberal and a leftist.

So you're going to wave the marxist wand and cast an increase capital spell?

You act like capital can never come from targeted expenditure by the state. I'm pretty sure there's no shortage of productive work to be done, so arranging things so that able-bodied immigrants could do it if they want isn't really magic. Especially when the alternative is that they die on the way back to their decimated home countries. But it's instructive that the most convoluted rationales for why people should not be free to go where they want continue to be offered, as if this is a sophisticated engineering problem and not just a case of forgetting for a minute that we have to assign a dollar value to every person for them to matter as humans. If other things have to change, let's find out what those things are and change them. That starts with thinking outside of the parameters that have been handed down by economists.

 

[untermensche]

There ain't no money to hire any workers.



The rich need it for hoarding.

 

[ZiprHead]

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So you're going to wave the marxist wand and cast an increase capital spell?

You act like capital can never come from targeted expenditure by the state. I'm pretty sure there's no shortage of productive work to be done, so arranging things so that able-bodied immigrants could do it if they want isn't really magic. Especially when the alternative is that they die on the way back to their decimated home countries. But it's instructive that the most convoluted rationales for why people should not be free to go where they want continue to be offered, as if this is a sophisticated engineering problem and not just a case of forgetting for a minute that we have to assign a dollar value to every person for them to matter as humans. If other things have to change, let's find out what those things are and change them. That starts with thinking outside of the parameters that have been handed down by economists.

The state doesn't have that kind of money. You're assuming a magic wand.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There ain't no money to hire any workers.

View attachment 19324

The rich need it for hoarding.

What you fail to understand is that the rich don't actually have that sort of money sitting around. That "wealth" is mostly in the form of businesses--in other words, the means of production. It's not money that could be used to pay workers.

 

[untermensche]

There ain't no money to hire any workers.

View attachment 19324

The rich need it for hoarding.

What you fail to understand is that the rich don't actually have that sort of money sitting around. That "wealth" is mostly in the form of businesses--in other words, the means of production. It's not money that could be used to pay workers.

No.

Many have it sitting around.

Off shore in tax havens doing nothing.

The problem is too few control too much wealth, not that they don't have it.

 

[Bomb#20]

I take the inviolable humanity of others as a force of unalterable natural law that must be accommodated, even to the detriment of markets.

That's the difference between a liberal and a leftist.

Yes, if there's one thing leftists are famous for, it's taking the inviolable humanity of others as a force of unalterable natural law that must be accommodated.

 

[PyramidHead]

I take the inviolable humanity of others as a force of unalterable natural law that must be accommodated, even to the detriment of markets.

That's the difference between a liberal and a leftist.

Yes, if there's one thing leftists are famous for, it's taking the inviolable humanity of others as a force of unalterable natural law that must be accommodated.

Oh no not skulls you shattered my worldview

EDIT: fine, I should have said libertarian leftist. Happy now? Talk to a doctor about that jerking knee of yours.

 

[PyramidHead]

There ain't no money to hire any workers.

View attachment 19324

The rich need it for hoarding.

What you fail to understand is that the rich don't actually have that sort of money sitting around. That "wealth" is mostly in the form of businesses--in other words, the means of production. It's not money that could be used to pay workers.

Unless of course the businesses were not owned by the rich but by the workers, but I guess that's just my magic wand talking again. To put it another way, the fact that only rich people own the means of production is not an excuse for paying workers less, it's a reason to change who owns the means of production.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There ain't no money to hire any workers.

View attachment 19324

The rich need it for hoarding.

What you fail to understand is that the rich don't actually have that sort of money sitting around. That "wealth" is mostly in the form of businesses--in other words, the means of production. It's not money that could be used to pay workers.

No.

Many have it sitting around.

Off shore in tax havens doing nothing.

The problem is too few control too much wealth, not that they don't have it.

Even if it was sent to tax havens doesn't mean it's sitting around doing nothing.