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The vast economic downside of deporting and/or substantially limiting immigrants into the US

RVonse said:
[Unmitigated idiocy]
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IOW, make Americans work harder and have shittier lives with less of anything they want so that they can take home more "money" but have less material access to goods and services and the time to use them.
 
I'll be frank, I spent most of my life working. The overarching theme of this was that I was going to be expected, by people who had everything, to work my whole life and give them administrative control and ownership of everything I do, and to do this happily for the privilege of never even getting to own one of the things I participate in making, to use for my own purposes in any part.

Imagine that for a moment: I have made airplane cockpit interfaces and the software that runs them, designed from requirements I myself wrote that I have no power to ever access or reuse.

I have made motor command software, a whole C++ library for the StepRocker and associated set of servo controllers, and to use it today, I would have to pay someone else for the license to do so, rather than them paying me.

HOW is this expected to be the American dream, happily waltzing up to someone with a collar so they can snap it on you forever, shitting their dregs in your mouth when you are hungry and offering nothing but piss when you are thirsty?

I wish I were exaggerating, but the Horses and Sparrows and Oats framing was one offered by THEM, the business owner class. This is what austerity is. This is what "trickle down" is.

Does it make you feel gross? Disgusting? Offended that someone would put something so filthy and graphic in front of you?

GOOD!!!!

That's the fucking point.

I'm tired of this shit. No, I won't sit down and pretend I like it. And it wasn't taken from me by unions or governments or taxes, it was taken from me by "capitalists".

I would have worked happily, hand in hand, without complaint, forever, if it would have been shared with me, if I could have made it for 'everyone', perhaps even if it was allowed that I would also make it for myself.

Why must people be like this? Why must they take everything and share nothing?
 
I think I know what tRump's plan is.
If he tanks the economy, there will a lot less jobs.
So, no one will want to come here.
Genius!
 
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Jarhyn said:
I'll be frank, I spent most of my life working. The overarching theme of this was that I was going to be expected, by people who had everything, to work my whole life and give them administrative control and ownership of everything I do, and to do this happily for the privilege of never even getting to own one of the things I participate in making, to use for my own purposes in any part.

Imagine that for a moment: I have made airplane cockpit interfaces and the software that runs them, designed from requirements I myself wrote that I have no power to ever access or reuse.

I have made motor command software, a whole C++ library for the StepRocker and associated set of servo controllers, and to use it today, I would have to pay someone else for the license to do so, rather than them paying me.

HOW is this expected to be the American dream, happily waltzing up to someone with a collar so they can snap it on you forever, shitting their dregs in your mouth when you are hungry and offering nothing but piss when you are thirsty?

I wish I were exaggerating, but the Horses and Sparrows and Oats framing was one offered by THEM, the business owner class. This is what austerity is. This is what "trickle down" is.

Does it make you feel gross? Disgusting? Offended that someone would put something so filthy and graphic in front of you?

GOOD!!!!

That's the fucking point.

I'm tired of this shit. No, I won't sit down and pretend I like it. And it wasn't taken from me by unions or governments or taxes, it was taken from me by "capitalists".

I would have worked happily, hand in hand, without complaint, forever, if it would have been shared with me, if I could have made it for 'everyone', perhaps even if it was allowed that I would also make it for myself.

Why must people be like this? Why must they take everything and share nothing?
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Hear, hear. I haven’t figured out what horses and sparrows have to do with it but hear fucking hear to the rest.
 
TV and credit cards said:
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Jarhyn said:
I'll be frank, I spent most of my life working. The overarching theme of this was that I was going to be expected, by people who had everything, to work my whole life and give them administrative control and ownership of everything I do, and to do this happily for the privilege of never even getting to own one of the things I participate in making, to use for my own purposes in any part.

Imagine that for a moment: I have made airplane cockpit interfaces and the software that runs them, designed from requirements I myself wrote that I have no power to ever access or reuse.

I have made motor command software, a whole C++ library for the StepRocker and associated set of servo controllers, and to use it today, I would have to pay someone else for the license to do so, rather than them paying me.

HOW is this expected to be the American dream, happily waltzing up to someone with a collar so they can snap it on you forever, shitting their dregs in your mouth when you are hungry and offering nothing but piss when you are thirsty?

I wish I were exaggerating, but the Horses and Sparrows and Oats framing was one offered by THEM, the business owner class. This is what austerity is. This is what "trickle down" is.

Does it make you feel gross? Disgusting? Offended that someone would put something so filthy and graphic in front of you?

GOOD!!!!

That's the fucking point.

I'm tired of this shit. No, I won't sit down and pretend I like it. And it wasn't taken from me by unions or governments or taxes, it was taken from me by "capitalists".

I would have worked happily, hand in hand, without complaint, forever, if it would have been shared with me, if I could have made it for 'everyone', perhaps even if it was allowed that I would also make it for myself.

Why must people be like this? Why must they take everything and share nothing?
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Hear, hear. I haven’t figured out what horses and sparrows have to do with it but hear fucking hear to the rest.
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Horses and Sparrows and Oats is an earlier iteration of Trickle Down, quite literally "our shit is rich enough for you to eat" circa 1896:

if one feeds the horses enough oats, eventually there will be something left behind for the sparrows
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bilby said:
Tristan Scott said:
If we think that being dependent on foreign oil is bad, wait till its food.
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Is dependence on foreign labour better or worse than dependence on foreign oil or food?

If independence is the goal, then you need to make all of the labourers in the US into US citizens.
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I think what happens here is that once people become citizens they strive to find better paying and less back breaking careers and need up leaving ag. Then farmers will still have the problem of harvesting their crops.
Farmers will hire citizens right now if they apply, but they don't.
 
ZiprHead said:
Tristan Scott said:
As far as agriculture goes we already have previewed the results in the sugar beet industry. Foreign labor was banned from the industry decades ago in Colorado and Wyoming and the industry in those areas died. The fields went fallow and the processing plants were abandoned. As a result the US went from being one of the largest exporters of sugar to now being one of the largest importers of sugar. The same will happen with all of our agriculture and food processing.
If we think that being dependent on foreign oil is bad, wait till its food.
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Michigan is a big sugar beet growing state. All the farms use harvester equipped tractors. They then go into double bottom semi trailers usually uncovered so when the trailer hit a bump a beet bounces out and onto the car behind it. There are processing plants all around the area. No human harvesting at all.
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No doubt. The US still produces a lot off sugar, the industry left Wyoming back in the 50s and 60s, but the point here is that if farmers cannot harvest their produce at a profit in an area they quit farming in that area. Southern Arizona as well as Southern California produce nearly all of our winter leaf vegetables, and they rely completely on migrant workers.
 
RVonse said:
Colonel Sanders said:
Will all the useless shit Americans buy will still be available for cheap? Hard to say.
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All the useless shit Americans will spend more time working after the immigrants who leave those jobs cause a shortage of workers and higher wages. Then those useless shit Americans will be working instead of loitering in Wal Mart trying to be the first to bring home the cheapest crap that breaks down immediately and then clutters up their homes.

But how will this be bad for America? I'm not sure how more useless shit Americans working is bad.
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1) We currently get pieces of pie that are bigger than our share because of all the cheap illegal labor. Remove that and our pieces of pie have to shrink.

2) This isn't a video game. You can't suddenly shift factories from making widgets to making thingamagigs. Doing so is expensive and disruptive to the system--and that's labor that produces no value for the people. You talk about good and bad dollars--that's an extreme example of bad dollars.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
1) We currently get pieces of pie that are bigger than our share because of all the cheap illegal labor. Remove that and our pieces of pie have to shrink.
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So much this!
Immigrants made America Great in the first place. It wasn't just the cheap labor, although that helped a lot.
It was their willingness to struggle through hardships. Make a better life, at least for their kids. The US immigration system encouraged that attitude and it made America the world power it became.

The current Teaparty policy of pulling up the drawbridge and building Walls is both anti Christian and anti American.
Tom
 
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