The Vilification of Judas Iscariot

[steve_bank]

Before TV god and the interaction with god was an ancient soap opera.

 

[DBT]

The disciples seemed to have trouble identifying Jesus, perhaps he was in disguise.

 

[Tigers!]

Instead - the days and days of hair rending and teeth gnashing, the set-up of the patsy, the stage setting for the public flogging, the three hour drama. If he’s powerful enough to wake the zombies from the graves, why not just have a monumental public speech about the pain of all the sins of the world, some fine acting about how much it hurts and requires sacrifice, then explode in a blaze of green light and then appear reassembled in 20 minutes?

If Jesus had exploded in a blaze of green light and then appeared reassembled in 20 minutes you would still not believe it.

How it is you are comfortable fabricating some made up response and ascribing it to me? This is bearing false witness. How do you sleep at night?

Looking again it was you who used the words "ëxplode in a blaze of green light and then appeared reassembled in 20 minutes" in post 67. I merely quoted what you wrote. Hardly fabricating some made up response.

You have no idea what I would believe if I saw someone exploded in a blaze of green laseer and reassembled 20 minutes later.

Having read many of your posts over a number of years you are not a person I would subscribe to taking such a description with undue seriousness.

And even more to your point, I suppose, is why a god would give a care about whether I believe in it anyway? Does it lose health points if people don’t gaze deeply into its eyes? Why would a real god demand such an outlandish thing? That one has always left me puzzled. Such a human desire. Almost as if it were fabricated by a human.

Sounds like you are making a real god in your own image.

 

[Learner]

Aside… I am wondering why Jesus didn’t just turn himself in. Why did he think his story plot needed him to be betrayed in order to bring substitutional punishment that yields global forgiveness?

Turn himself in? He was waiting and expecting to be arrested. He gave himself up freely.

Of all the things humans were doing at the time, including the fact that he was already being sought by police, he needed a new fresh crime to put on his story board? Why not just do it right after those pharisees tried to stone the adulterer? “‘Aaaugh! Sin and Badness! I will die now to atone for it!!!”

There... you got it, highlighted in bold text. Sure, Judas gets the credit from his betrayal. I totally understand the thinking as to why this could be made to be, for this particular narrative idea - the impact being around Judas who was one of the disciples.

Judas didn't cause the death of Jesus, he took part in it, many were involved. Jesus was already condemned by the Sanhedrin who wanted to kill him and as you highlighted, he was being sought by the police and mob. There would be a number of people nearby who would have wanted to point out where Jesus was for '30 pieces of silver' given the opportunity. Jesus would be crucified regardless of whether or not Jesus was betrayed by Judas.

Instead - the days and days of hair rending and teeth gnashing, the set-up of the patsy, the stage setting for the public flogging, the three hour drama. If he’s powerful enough to wake the zombies from the graves, why not just have a monumental public speech about the pain of all the sins of the world, some fine acting about how much it hurts and requires sacrifice, then explode in a blaze of green light and then appear reassembled in 20 minutes?

I dunno, to me Jesus accepting his traumatic ordeal and taking on the utmost of abuse and excruciating pain to the 'human form' has somewhat a rather different 'significance' than the one you're seeing maybe?

I mean, the way he did it left the message pretty moribund for the next 300 years before catching on at all, and now after 2000 years less than 1/3 of the planet believes it at all? I feel like reassembling after a green laser blast would have been more effective and memorable. You know?

The message caught on from the beginning, as with people who opposed the spread of gospels also from the beginning.

 

[Rhea]

Instead - the days and days of hair rending and teeth gnashing, the set-up of the patsy, the stage setting for the public flogging, the three hour drama. If he’s powerful enough to wake the zombies from the graves, why not just have a monumental public speech about the pain of all the sins of the world, some fine acting about how much it hurts and requires sacrifice, then explode in a blaze of green light and then appear reassembled in 20 minutes?

If Jesus had exploded in a blaze of green light and then appeared reassembled in 20 minutes you would still not believe it.

How it is you are comfortable fabricating some made up response and ascribing it to me? This is bearing false witness. How do you sleep at night?

Looking again it was you who used the words "ëxplode in a blaze of green light and then appeared reassembled in 20 minutes" in post 67. I merely quoted what you wrote. Hardly fabricating some made up response.

Look again, you said if I saw something you claim to know my reaction.
You made it up. And said that’s how I’d act.

You could have asked if I’d believe it, but you decided to declare that I wouldn’t. And yet you are comfortable fabricating that claim and stating it as fact. Not, “I think Rhea would,” but “Rhea would”.

Meh, you be you. The old “i don’t bear false witness, but when I do, I make excuses for why it’s okay for me to bear false witness.”

You have no idea what I would believe if I saw someone exploded in a blaze of green laseer and reassembled 20 minutes later.

Having read many of your posts over a number of years you are not a person I would subscribe to taking such a description with undue seriousness.

That’s different from claiming I would certainly not believe what I see if I see someone explode and get reassembled.
Your analysis, conclusion, and claim are ridiculous.

And even more to your point, I suppose, is why a god would give a care about whether I believe in it anyway? Does it lose health points if people don’t gaze deeply into its eyes? Why would a real god demand such an outlandish thing? That one has always left me puzzled. Such a human desire. Almost as if it were fabricated by a human.

Sounds like you are making a real god in your own image.

Nah, you missed my point. The attributes of a god that I hear from humans sound like human attributes. I recognize someone else making a god in human image.

 

[Rhea]

Aside… I am wondering why Jesus didn’t just turn himself in. Why did he think his story plot needed him to be betrayed in order to bring substitutional punishment that yields global forgiveness?

Turn himself in? He was waiting and expecting to be arrested. He gave himself up freely.

He was waiting to be betrayed, so he could be a victim of betrayal, and then get arrested. He could have turned himself in before needing Judas Iscariot to damn his own eternal soul.

Of all the things humans were doing at the time, including the fact that he was already being sought by police, he needed a new fresh crime to put on his story board? Why not just do it right after those pharisees tried to stone the adulterer? “‘Aaaugh! Sin and Badness! I will die now to atone for it!!!”

There... you got it, highlighted in bold text. Sure, Judas gets the credit from his betrayal.

The whole point of this is that it is not CREDIT, it’s demerits. And Judas doesn’t deserve the demerits since he was made to do it, per the scripture.

I totally understand the thinking as to why this could be made to be, for this particular narrative idea - the impact being around Judas who was one of the disciples.

Why does that matter to the planned self-sacrifice? Remember, the god planned this from the moment of Jesus’ conception that this was going to happen. Why did they have to destroy Judas in carrying it out?

Judas didn't cause the death of Jesus, he took part in it, many were involved.

And yet Judas Iscariot is vilified. The point of this thread.

Jesus was already condemned by the Sanhedrin who wanted to kill him and as you highlighted, he was being sought by the police and mob. There would be a number of people nearby who would have wanted to point out where Jesus was for '30 pieces of silver' given the opportunity. Jesus would be crucified regardless of whether or not Jesus was betrayed by Judas.

Why did anyone need to point him out? Did the police and the mob not know what he looked like?

All of this assumes that there needed to even BE police and a mob in order for this god-planned self-sacrifice and atonement to even happen or work. God wanted to bifurcate and impregnante a woman with himself to sacrifice himself to himself so that he could appease himself by punishing himself to atone to himself. But no, he needed to have scapegoats for his plan - to make someone (Judas) feel like shit over it, enough to die by suicide and spend eternity in hell? WTF? The REAL sacrifice here was by Judas. He’s the only one still atoning for your god’s clever plan.

Instead - the days and days of hair rending and teeth gnashing, the set-up of the patsy, the stage setting for the public flogging, the three hour drama. If he’s powerful enough to wake the zombies from the graves, why not just have a monumental public speech about the pain of all the sins of the world, some fine acting about how much it hurts and requires sacrifice, then explode in a blaze of green light and then appear reassembled in 20 minutes?

I dunno, to me Jesus accepting his traumatic ordeal and taking on the utmost of abuse and excruciating pain to the 'human form' has somewhat a rather different 'significance' than the one you're seeing maybe?

Jesus’ “traumatic ordeal“ was over in less than 3 days which Jesus knew it would be, before it even started. I get my teeth drilled without novocaine because I know it’ll be over in less than a minute. Judas Iscariot is still suffering, 1990 years later.

Jesus’ “traumatic ordeal” was over in less time than John McCain waited to be fed the first time At the hands of his captors/torturers.

The “utmost of abuse” ??? Can I introduce you to some abused children who suffer for far far longer than 3 days? Can I take you on a tour of a domestic violence shelter? Guantanamo bay? A neuropathy ward? Anyone who doesn’t know it’s going to be over in three days and who didn’t enter into it on purpose?


I’m always appalled at the lack of empathy in Christians who proclaim that 3 days of beating before death is the “utmost abuse.” Yeah it’s bad. But three days is nothing compared to the suffering of the survivors of Hiroshima or the enslaved in America or any other number of people who suffered for years before their murder. Faugh. Pathetic.

I mean, the way he did it left the message pretty moribund for the next 300 years before catching on at all, and now after 2000 years less than 1/3 of the planet believes it at all? I feel like reassembling after a green laser blast would have been more effective and memorable. You know?

The message caught on from the beginning, as with people who opposed the spread of gospels also from the beginning.

The message FROM AN ALL POWERFUL GOD caught on with a handful of people, and it took a human emperor to force it on a larger population almost 300 years later just to get on the board.


Steve Jobs reached more people faster, and didn’t scapegoat anyone with suicidal guilt on the way.

 

[Rhea]

All this to reiterate - Judas Iscariot is unfairly vilified.

 

[Thomas II]

"One suggestion has been that Judas expected Jesus to overthrow Roman rule of Judea. In this view, Judas is a disillusioned disciple betraying Jesus not so much because he loved money, but because he loved his country and thought Jesus had failed it.[62] Another is that Jesus was causing unrest likely to increase tensions with the Roman authorities and they thought he should be restrained until after the Passover, when everyone had gone back home and the commotion had died down"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas...ion has been that,thought Jesus had failed it.

 

[DBT]

It seems that every drama needs a villain, the serpent in the garden, a Judas who betrays the hero Jesus, Satan in opposition to God, demons and angels, good and evil.....

 

[TomC]

All this to reiterate - Judas Iscariot is unfairly vilified.

But only because of Christian theology. Leave out Jesus's Divinity and God's need for a Divine Sacrifice, and the rest falls easily into place.
That's why I referred to it as non-theist.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Instead - the days and days of hair rending and teeth gnashing, the set-up of the patsy, the stage setting for the public flogging, the three hour drama. If he’s powerful enough to wake the zombies from the graves, why not just have a monumental public speech about the pain of all the sins of the world, some fine acting about how much it hurts and requires sacrifice, then explode in a blaze of green light and then appear reassembled in 20 minutes?

If Jesus had exploded in a blaze of green light and then appeared reassembled in 20 minutes you would still not believe it.

I hate this retort that is intended to defame a person who questions a convoluted and shitty miracle.

Well, if it was a really good miracle, you still wouldn't believe!

It is so petty.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It seems that every drama needs a villain, the serpent in the garden, a Judas who betrays the hero Jesus, Satan in opposition to God, demons and angels, good and evil.....

Serpent isn't a villain in the Garden, more like a anti-hero of sorts. Without the serpent mankind is just a bunch of dumb dumbs in a garden. Which does make one wonder about God's long-term plan about population issues in the Garden.

In the Garden, 150 years later:
God: Jesus!
Man: What?
God: Getting kind of crowded in here.
Man: No shit.
God: How'd that happen?
Man: No birth control.
God: Oh...
Man: You plan on doing anything about it?
God: Well, you were supposed to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil 143 years ago, then I kick you out for becoming like I am.
Man: A douche?
God: *nods*
Man: So what happened?
God: Apparently there is a multi-verse issue due to my design of the quantum fields. I guess that is what I get for drinking so much in college and not making it to those physics classes first thing in the morning.
Man: So, where do we go from here?
God: I figure we ride it out for a bit. See if you eventually fall and I kill everything on the planet but one family as I originally planned.
Man: *eyes open wide*
God: I've gotta go.

 

[steve_bank]

Wht would any of the aoastles be armed to begin with let alone draw a sword? After all Jesus is the Prince Of Peace.

There are great biblical metaphors for all occupations, like snake in the garden, or jUDAS.

Myths provide cultural metaphors. In my gnertion to 'John Wayne' a situartion. Meaning act lie his agressive fictional cowboy movie persona. Wayne's movie perona was a mdern cultural myth.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The Serpent isn't a metaphor, it is a plot device. Obviously, the narrative of man and woman must end in a manner that has them outside the Garden. They must fall. The Serpent doesn't lie, doesn't trick man and woman. It tells the truth. This is quite important as man and woman must freely make this decision, to hunger for knowledge. And when they have the knowledge, their minds are "blown", they are no longer who they were at creation. It is this reason, and God's vanity, that leads to the removal from The Garden. Nothing else.

The problem with Judas is that Judas is even needed. Jesus must be crucified by the authorities, but no one knows who Jesus is, where he is, what he looks like. The more one thinks about it, the New Testament almost seems to suggest Jesus doesn't exist! And of course, this is all needed in some wildly convoluted mess to die for man's sins. IE, it is okay Judas does this or Jesus tells Judas to do this because it has to happen, because of fulfillment of a new prophecy that hadn't existed yet, for the cure of original sin, which was never previously referenced in Judaism.

 

[steve_bank]

I was aying the bible stories prvided a means of cultural communication. I grew up with biblical metphors in the culture.

Not so much any more.

It has been replaced by pop culture.

You might still hear somebody say 'extracting a pound of flesh' today from Shaekespere's Merchant Of Venice. When I was growing up Shylock from Merchant Of Venice was a common term for a criminal unethical money lender. And it was also an antisemitic slur in common usage.

1. a relentless and revengeful moneylender in Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice.
2. a hard-hearted moneylender.

1. (lowercase) to lend money at extortionate rates of interest.

Ancient Jewish, Romas, and Greek mythology beyond just a belief served a cultural commincation purpose.

 

[James Brown]

Just thought of something...

Matthew 19:

27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Seven chapters later, Judas is betraying Jesus to the chief priests.

So despite betraying Jesus to death, Judas still gets a throne to rule one of the tribes of Israel--right alongside Peter, James, and John--after the Son of Man comes and wipes out the Roman Empire. Seems an unlikely reward for the 'vilified' Judas Iscariot, to be allowed a kingdom of his own.

Or else Jesus didn't know that Judas was going to betray him, and so still considered him a trusted follower.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Dude, spoiler alerts! I'm only up to Matthew 16.

 

[bilby]

Matthew 16

Wasn't he a character in Logan's Run?

 

[DBT]

If the events called for the sacrifice of Jesus and his betrayal by Judas, Judas played his part as ordained, later they all slap him on the back, laugh, reap their reward and begin the new game of divine rulers of the tribes of Israel.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Just thought of something...

Matthew 19:

27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Seven chapters later, Judas is betraying Jesus to the chief priests.

So despite betraying Jesus to death, Judas still gets a throne to rule one of the tribes of Israel--right alongside Peter, James, and John--after the Son of Man comes and wipes out the Roman Empire. Seems an unlikely reward for the 'vilified' Judas Iscariot, to be allowed a kingdom of his own.

Or else Jesus didn't know that Judas was going to betray him, and so still considered him a trusted follower.

You are exactly right, but try and find a Christian today who gives a FF about the 12 tribes, or tefillin, or observing Passover, or any of the other Torah observances that Jesus found precious and central to his life and thinking. If he does come back and gets invited to a Christian potluck, you have to wonder what he'll say when they pass the ham.