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The violent, inhumane extremism of mainstream Islam in the Middle East

In general, Muslims in America aren't bombing America (WTC bombing is a major exception). In fact, American Muslims are actually quite peaceful. Killings perpetuated by whites greatly exceeds those by Muslims. Odd that 14 dead in San Bernadino leads to calls to close the borders to Muslim migration, yet more than that in elementary school children dead led to almost no calls for any action.

Then we need to approach this from an angle of real world perspective. There isn't this Muslim bloc. Islam suffers from fractures larger and more significant than Protestantism. Adherence to central authority isn't too common. So, recognizing that Muslims are individuals and not a block of people, it'd seem wise to allow Muslims to enter the US, to moderate into our culture, just as other Muslims have already done. Moderate Muslims are clearly not a threat, radicalized ones are.

The alternative is to isolate them in bastions of hate and suffering, stucked for years in refugee camps, in poverty, which can only lead to the growth of extremism.

But please, don't let pragmatism get in the way of the "At all costs" mentality and pretending that in the Internet Age we can close the border to hate and extremism.

OOps. The third word in what you quoted was supposed to be "not". I must have deleted it in editing. I do "not" think any particular policy is neccessitated by the fact that most Muslims living in Islam dominated countries endorse an inherently violent, intolerant, theocratic worldview. I merely think that any policy should be honest about this fact.

That said, what you replied about Muslims already in the US is largely irrelevant, since my OP was about Muslims living in and socialized within the context of the Islamic world. US Muslims are relevant only because they support my point about Muslims who don't hold such intolerant, theocratic views being generally less Muslim in their actual beliefs and commitments to Islam (as other research shows is true of US Muslims compared to Muslims in Islamic countries, just like US Jews are compared to those in Israel).
I agree that there are certainly a higher percentage of Muslims than Christians that currently think in such terms. In terms with dealing with it, I would have less issue with not desiring Muslim refugees if the US wasn't part of the violence equation in much of the ME. Just getting the US out of the ME domination games, would do much to reduce Muslim animosity towards our nation over time. Though it will take a decade or two for this to bear fruit, after a century of western interference. Another irony is that the US primarily coddles Sunni regimes and is hostile to Shiite regimes, even though most of the terrorist attacks have come from the Sunni sect in recent decades. And the Saudi's are the biggest financier of the right wing of Islam. Funny how they are just about our best buddy over there...

And if we wanted to reduce the violence in this country, we could probably reduce murders by 6k-7k a year if we had gun laws like much of western Europe; yeah it would take a decade or so to bleed off the number of guns, and probably with a little more difficulty than Australia. Never mind how much harder it would make it for crazies like in Sandy or San Bernadino to commit mass mayhem.
 
Chomsky is correct US foreign policy and terrorism specifically, because terrorism is essentially a military action against foreign threats with far superior military power. But as I said in the OP and several posts since, the violence and anti-secularism inherent to Islam isn't about terrorism, but the countless other forms of violence and injustice and impediments to progress resulting from people's everyday actions within a society and toward other members of that society.

NYT must be operating under a different definition of "terrorism":

1231-web-RATTNER9-600.png

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/12/28/opinion/rattner-2015-year-in-charts.html?ref=opinion
 
I don't know enough to talk about Islam, but if you read the New Testament, it is absolutely clear that the belief concerns pacifist socialism.

Yes, for example if you read John 3:16 in the Greek it translates roughly to:

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that state ownership of the means of production shall not perish but have eternal life.
Read what Mary sang, the Sermon on the Mount and Acts sometime, child. What has socialism to do with the capitalist state?
 
I stand to be corrected, but I believe that prior to the illegal invasion of Iraq where US and allied troops went on a spree shooting "every male you see" according to Chris Kyle, there had never been a suicide bombing in Iraq.
I wonder how violent Americans would be if Iraq invaded the USA and started shooting every male they saw, and imposed a puppet sectarian government that violently suppressed peaceful protests?

He's not exactly a credible source.

And the reason for the suicide bombings is the meddling of places like Iran--the origin of modern suicide bombing.
 
Chomsky is correct US foreign policy and terrorism specifically, because terrorism is essentially a military action against foreign threats with far superior military power. But as I said in the OP and several posts since, the violence and anti-secularism inherent to Islam isn't about terrorism, but the countless other forms of violence and injustice and impediments to progress resulting from people's everyday actions within a society and toward other members of that society.

NYT must be operating under a different definition of "terrorism":

View attachment 5166

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/12/28/opinion/rattner-2015-year-in-charts.html?ref=opinion

How do you figure? IOW, what do these unlabeled figures mean and how do they imply a different definition of terrorism?
 
I don't know enough to talk about Islam, but if you read the New Testament, it is absolutely clear that the belief concerns pacifist socialism.

Jesus supported everything in the OT. He said, "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill," (Matt. 5:17).

Thus, the God of the NT and OT are identical, and all of the authoritarian, intolerant, infidels killing, sexual deviant stoning endorsements of the OT are foundational to Christianity as well as Judaism. Not to mention, authoritarianism is logically inherent to the very concept of a singular creator God from whom all law emanates, which is a defining feature of ever sect of all the Monotheisms that bare any remote resemblance to the religions from which they historically sprang.

You seem to have some special meaning for 'fulfil' don't you?
 
How do you figure? IOW, what do these unlabeled figures mean and how do they imply a different definition of terrorism?

You're going to have to click the link. I don't think the labels were part of the image.

Anyway, my take on the charts is that most of what the NYT describes as terrorism has little whatever to do with "US foreign policy". It's mostly things like Nigerians killing Nigerians or Iraqis killing Iraqis. I suppose the uttermenschians of the world consider any thing bad that happens anywhere "US foreign policy related", but that is more revealing of their biases than of the reality of what motivates the terrorists.
 
How do you figure? IOW, what do these unlabeled figures mean and how do they imply a different definition of terrorism?

You're going to have to click the link. I don't think the labels were part of the image.

Anyway, my take on the charts is that most of what the NYT describes as terrorism has little whatever to do with "US foreign policy". It's mostly things like Nigerians killing Nigerians or Iraqis killing Iraqis. I suppose the uttermenschians of the world consider any thing bad that happens anywhere "US foreign policy related", but that is more revealing of their biases than of the reality of what motivates the terrorists.

Simply killing people isn't necessary or sufficient for terrorism. IF that is the NYT definition, then they are idiots. Terrorism is act designed to create the feeling of terror in people in order to achieve victories against one's political enemies. Chomsky isn't saying (and I am not agreeing with) the notion that all terrorism is caused by Western aggression. Chomsky is discussing specifically terrorism by those living in Muslim-dominated countries against Western nations. The actions of the US that made us such a political enemy of these people obviously played a key causal role in them being motivated to use terrorism against us, since it directed at political enemies. The fact that we are so much stronger than they are in military power is also critical to them resorting to terrorist methods of warfare against us, since they cannot employ military-to-military methods.

In the context of such international terrorism, Islam plays more of a enabling and supporting role. It helps political interests in the Muslim world redirect all anger and hatred toward the West as "infidels", even when much or most of the people's misery comes from those Muslim political interests themselves. It helps to rationalize the justness of killing non-combatants by any means neccessary. But without the US and the West acting like enemies of these populations, Islam itself would not be sufficient to motivate and give cover to the brutal killing of non-combatant citizens of other countries which had done nothing to harm the Muslim people whom the terrorist claim to be defending.
Not to mention, if we had not made ourselves such enemies of these populations, they almost certainly would have been attracted toward secularization and away from Islam, just like Westerners have been away from Christianity. So, even when it comes to the enabling role of Islam in international terrorism, our foreign policy is partly to blame for that as well.

As usual, both ideological camps have it wrong and created a false dichotomy. It isn't a matter of whether Islam is inherently violent or our foreign policy triggered violence by Islamists. Islam is violent and its violence always has been directed at those it seeks to control. Our foreign policy both further empowered Islam by hindering natural progress toward secularism and directed the violence of Islam toward our non-combatant citizens.
 
A bit of a non-sequitur, unless you can prove that refugees are responsible for mass shootings.

San Bernadino was terrorists coming in as moderates. Why would refugees be any less vulnerable to this?

Why would *anybody* be less vulnerable? Should we let *nobody* in to the country, should we kick out everybody who is already in the country, even if they're born here? Refugees are more vetted than anybody else coming into the country. We let a dozen or so Saudi terrorists in to the country on visas and we still offer visas to Saudi citizens! If you're looking to shut down the flow of terrorists, the refugee process is most definitely *not* the place to start.

It's the same kind of lazy, displaced thinking that results in inventing laws to stop voter fraud, which simply doesn't happen, even if it means preventing actual voting. It's pure xenophobia, with no basis in reality.
 
You're going to have to click the link. I don't think the labels were part of the image.

Anyway, my take on the charts is that most of what the NYT describes as terrorism has little whatever to do with "US foreign policy". It's mostly things like Nigerians killing Nigerians or Iraqis killing Iraqis. I suppose the uttermenschians of the world consider any thing bad that happens anywhere "US foreign policy related", but that is more revealing of their biases than of the reality of what motivates the terrorists.

Simply killing people isn't necessary or sufficient for terrorism. IF that is the NYT definition, then they are idiots. Terrorism is act designed to create the feeling of terror in people in order to achieve victories against one's political enemies. Chomsky isn't saying (and I am not agreeing with) the notion that all terrorism is caused by Western aggression. Chomsky is discussing specifically terrorism by those living in Muslim-dominated countries against Western nations. The actions of the US that made us such a political enemy of these people obviously played a key causal role in them being motivated to use terrorism against us, since it directed at political enemies. The fact that we are so much stronger than they are in military power is also critical to them resorting to terrorist methods of warfare against us, since they cannot employ military-to-military methods.

In the context of such international terrorism, Islam plays more of a enabling and supporting role. It helps political interests in the Muslim world redirect all anger and hatred toward the West as "infidels", even when much or most of the people's misery comes from those Muslim political interests themselves. It helps to rationalize the justness of killing non-combatants by any means neccessary. But without the US and the West acting like enemies of these populations, Islam itself would not be sufficient to motivate and give cover to the brutal killing of non-combatant citizens of other countries which had done nothing to harm the Muslim people whom the terrorist claim to be defending.
Not to mention, if we had not made ourselves such enemies of these populations, they almost certainly would have been attracted toward secularization and away from Islam, just like Westerners have been away from Christianity. So, even when it comes to the enabling role of Islam in international terrorism, our foreign policy is partly to blame for that as well.

As usual, both ideological camps have it wrong and created a false dichotomy. It isn't a matter of whether Islam is inherently violent or our foreign policy triggered violence by Islamists. Islam is violent and its violence always has been directed at those it seeks to control. Our foreign policy both further empowered Islam by hindering natural progress toward secularism and directed the violence of Islam toward our non-combatant citizens.

A lot of assertions. Very little evidence to back them up.

Care to support anything you've said? Or are you comfortable that your armchair pop-sociology drivel will pass as fact here so long as it's toeing the party line?
 

Except of course that there really isn't any such thing as an "origin of modern suicide bombing"...
http://www.military.com/Opinions/0,,Hayden_072905,00.html
Many think the Islamic suicide bombers are a new phenomenon and are wondering why people would do such a thing. Suicide bombers were not uncommon in World War II when Japanese soldiers wanted to kill Americans and die for the Emperor. Kamikaze pilots used their suicide missions as a last resort to stop the allies.

Vietnam had suicide missions from the Viet Cong that had no religious significance other than a seemingly patriotic desire for the removal of a perceived foreign invader, and the reunification of their homeland under the communist North Vietnamese.

And one can keep going back into history...finding it doesn't really stop. Though it really did take off in 2001, and then goes big time after the US invasion of Iraq:

199px-Suicide-attacks-cpost-bigger-font.JPG
 
You're going to have to click the link. I don't think the labels were part of the image.

Anyway, my take on the charts is that most of what the NYT describes as terrorism has little whatever to do with "US foreign policy". It's mostly things like Nigerians killing Nigerians or Iraqis killing Iraqis. I suppose the uttermenschians of the world consider any thing bad that happens anywhere "US foreign policy related", but that is more revealing of their biases than of the reality of what motivates the terrorists.

Simply killing people isn't necessary or sufficient for terrorism. IF that is the NYT definition, then they are idiots.
That is not the NYT definition. Their chart shows 7,512 terrorist killings in Nigeria. Nigeria has some 35,000 homicides a year.

Terrorism is act designed to create the feeling of terror in people in order to achieve victories against one's political enemies.
The NYT is presumably referring to Boko Haram murdering noncombatants, presumably to create feelings of terror and achieve victories against their political enemies. That is not "essentially a military action against foreign threats with far superior military power".
 
Sharia Law in action;

A young unmarried woman and a man have been publically caned in Indonesia’s Aceh province for being "too intimate" with each other.
The two university students, 23-year-old Wahyudi Saputra and 20-year-old Nur Elita, were caned for “khalwat” – affectionate contact – in front of a crowd, according to the The Jakarta Post. They were struck five times each and Elita was reportedly carried by officials to an ambulance after the punishment.


Independent

It could have been worse I suppose. At least she wasn't stoned to death.
 
Simply killing people isn't necessary or sufficient for terrorism. IF that is the NYT definition, then they are idiots. Terrorism is act designed to create the feeling of terror in people in order to achieve victories against one's political enemies. Chomsky isn't saying (and I am not agreeing with) the notion that all terrorism is caused by Western aggression. Chomsky is discussing specifically terrorism by those living in Muslim-dominated countries against Western nations. The actions of the US that made us such a political enemy of these people obviously played a key causal role in them being motivated to use terrorism against us, since it directed at political enemies. The fact that we are so much stronger than they are in military power is also critical to them resorting to terrorist methods of warfare against us, since they cannot employ military-to-military methods.

In the context of such international terrorism, Islam plays more of a enabling and supporting role. It helps political interests in the Muslim world redirect all anger and hatred toward the West as "infidels", even when much or most of the people's misery comes from those Muslim political interests themselves. It helps to rationalize the justness of killing non-combatants by any means neccessary. But without the US and the West acting like enemies of these populations, Islam itself would not be sufficient to motivate and give cover to the brutal killing of non-combatant citizens of other countries which had done nothing to harm the Muslim people whom the terrorist claim to be defending.
Not to mention, if we had not made ourselves such enemies of these populations, they almost certainly would have been attracted toward secularization and away from Islam, just like Westerners have been away from Christianity. So, even when it comes to the enabling role of Islam in international terrorism, our foreign policy is partly to blame for that as well.

As usual, both ideological camps have it wrong and created a false dichotomy. It isn't a matter of whether Islam is inherently violent or our foreign policy triggered violence by Islamists. Islam is violent and its violence always has been directed at those it seeks to control. Our foreign policy both further empowered Islam by hindering natural progress toward secularism and directed the violence of Islam toward our non-combatant citizens.

A lot of assertions. Very little evidence to back them up.

Care to support anything you've said? Or are you comfortable that your armchair pop-sociology drivel will pass as fact here so long as it's toeing the party line?

Which assumptions are you having trouble accepting as well established by all of behavioral science? Is it the assumption that people are more likely to respond with aggression towards those who have threatened them and their resources, and killed their loved ones? Or perhaps that assumption that doctrines that explicit command genocide against people merely for their beliefs, and extreme violence for even minor disobedience and infractions will tend to enable the use of inhumane violence against people, especially when there are pragmatic selfish motives for doing so?

It flies in the face of the most established basic facts of behavioral science to deny either of these realities, and my argument is little more than the logical application of these principles to understanding this particular historical situation. BTW, the OP itself provides evidence of Islam enabling violence, by showing that strength of commitment to Islam predict greater willingness to use violence against non-adherents and disobedient adherents.
 
You know, America has some good ideas and some good thinkers. They simply have no traction in today's political bubble machine. The people who run this machine will have to back off when they perceive an environmental threat to themselves. Environmental improvements are always late because those who profit from pollution put the improvements off as long as they can. It would be possible for our country to turn a corner far more than the ME which has been severely retarded by western colonialism and industrial empire. We simply have to give the ME a chance to recover from our serial robberies. Some regimes will have to change but it is not up to the U.S. to change them...things like Saudi Arabia and Egypt and I think Israel. Simply cutting the war supplies to the area would have a sobering effect on politicians drunk on war and its personal profits. It would also have a sobering effect on war materiel manufacturers in the U.S. Whoever orders this kind of change had better have a good Secret Service.

It would certainly boost Russian arm exports to the M-E. Probably Iranian/Pakistani arms too. And China, what with its Uighurs on the one hand, and a needy arms market presenting itself on the other hand, might not ignore the situation for too long. And maybe the correct attitude is 'so be it'.

History shows the region has been conquered, ruled and otherwise messed about with by a variety of people. -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_(region)#Ancient_period -- is worth reading because of the
latest cause for the inhabitants' suffering -- 'Western ' and UN messing that are often mentioned in these fora. This usually concerns oil, yes. It also concerns the elephant in the room that is studiously ignored : what the Muslims all over the world but especially those in the M_E call colonialism, that is the State of Israel and its policies eg -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevention_of_Infiltration_Law
This will remain a problem and an irritant to Muslims of all sects, everywhere, even if all the other inter-sectarian and nationalistic aqnd oil problems are magically solved. And the violent inhumane history will continue.

I think you may be missing the point. Violent confrontations and conflicts between groups of people etc...are temporal things. There are hundreds of factors that can change the entire situation. One is the obsolescence of oil. Right now the biggest problem is the obsolescence of thinking in terms of the necessity for massive oil production and use. The thinking itself is obsolete and those who persist will be the ones who will fall behind. If you apply the oil economy idea to the rancid pools of toxic oil underground in many nations you find yourself in a contest where nobody can win. Look at it and understand that. ISIS is a very temporary thing. Its cruelty is born of a sense (on their part) of its necessity. Our cruelty to these peoples of the middle east is locked in in exactly the same way. For a short time we will have to continue using some oil, but the oil people will in the end require the greatest of technological assistance to wean them from their own nightmarish expectations. As for Islam...
red herring.JPG
It is just a political gimmick oil desperados and daddy warbucks types use to keep the funds flowing into their morally corrupt operations. The primative beliefs of a lot of Muslims (exacerbated lack the orchestration by the west of lack of modern education in exploited lands) renders then subject to irritation by outside forces on matter of religion. ISES is the product of Madrases all over the Muslim world teaching Jihad. Even with this however, there are still only a small percentage of the Muslim population that accepts it. That is the part the war mongers do not admit. If we leave them alone, they will take care of ISIS. Our problem in the ME is that America is just one big war machine...supplying the lesser players (sometimes intentionally, sometimes unintentionally) with weapons of mass destruction.

I know Gore Vidal is dead, but he is still right on the issue of oil and the ME.
 
Then you think the opposite of what all empirical facts show. For self-labeled adherents to all the Abrahamic faiths, actual personal commitment to one's religious ideas is consistently positively correlated with support for more "conservative" and authoritarian policies that impose those religious ideas upon others.
I'm confused... is this an empirical fact you are quoting? Because that right there looks like a GENERALIZATION, not an "empirical fact."

An empirical fact is something you learn based on collecting data from an external source. It is NOT something you extrapolate based on anecdotes or media reports.

So you are telling me that a Jehovas Witness who is personally committed to his religious ideas will support authoritarian policies to impose his ideas on others; do you have evidence this tends to be true?

You are telling me that a Mennonite who is personally committed to his religious ideas will support authoritarian policies to impose his ideas on others; do you have evidence this tends to be true?

You are telling me that a Quaker who is personally committed to his religious ideas will support authoritarian policies to impose his ideas on others; do you have evidence this tends to be true?

You are telling me that a Jew who is personally committed to his religious ideas will support authoritarian policies to impose his ideas on others; do you have evidence this tends to be true?

You are telling me that a Methodist who is personally committed to his religious ideas will support authoritarian policies to impose his ideas on others; do you have evidence this tends to be true?

You are telling me that a Conservative Evangelical who is personally committed to his religious ideas will support authoritarian policies to impose his ideas on others; do you even have evidence that THIS tends to be true?

And to be absolutely clear: there is personal conviction of religious faith and moral conviction as a faith-driven political issue. These are separate things, and different sects of Christianity and Islam approach them in different ways.

Those who want to limit religion to "personal choices" not only pray less often (which was shown in the PEW data I linked in the OP), but other research shows they attend religious services less often, they report thinking about God or their religion less often, using their faith less in their daily decisions, and have more doubts about whether their own beliefs are true.
And in between "limit religion to personal choices" and "spread god's will over all the land" there are those for whom political activism is not even a significant religious activity. This is also true in Islam.

You are confusing the preference to limit religious faith to the personal level (thus keep it out of politics), with having a strong personal faith that the God of the Bible or Quran actually exists.
Not at all. I am recognizing that faith-based political activism is NOT a major tenet of the Christian religion and is actually a niche activity that becomes relevant only to a small number of highly prolific religious sects. Homosexuality and abortion are wedge issues for religious conservatives that overshadow just about all other possible issues; they are not, on the other hand, all that relevant to the Christian religion and are mentioned rarely -- if at all -- in scripture.

Put simply: believing that gay marriage should be illegal has nothing whatsoever to do with one's belief that God exists. That's a political and moralistic belief, not necessarily religious one.

Many Muslims, also, have political and moralistic beliefs that have little or nothing to do with their religion. The Pashtuns are the most obvious example of this, with the concept of Honor Killings and acid attacks and the constant threatening and/or murder of girls for attending schools. These are based on Islamized Pashtun tribal culture and have little or nothing to do with Islam or the Quran. The same is true of Boko Haram, whose campaign against education has a lot more to do with reactionary anti-westernism than it has to do with Islam or the Quran.

On the other hand, YOU are clearly confusing "strong personal faith in God" with "political conformity." It is just as obvious that not everyone who participates in faith-based religious activism strongly believes in the existence of God or the truth of the scriptures; Kim Davis set the gold standard for this: refusing to obey a court order to "uphold the sanctity of marriage" is deliciously ironic coming from a woman who has been divorced and remarried four different times. We can plainly tell from her actions that Kim Davis does not believe in the sanctity of marriage, nor does she believe her previous marriages were any more divinely-sanctioned than the same-sex marriages she refused to license. Hers is, therefore, a political belief, not a genuine religious one.

In all the monotheisms, those who support keeping faith only a "personal" and "private" matter, are those that do so because they doubt the validity of that faith in both factual and moral matters
That looks like another generalization of yours. There are, again, very well known Christian denominations that do not meddle in politics AS A RULE. Even aside from those are individual Christians that are actually extremely devout and also do not participate in political activism. You are attempting to draw a correlation between a lack of activism and a lack of strong religious conviction that a) isn't actually supported by data and b) doesn't hold true for denominations that do not put a premium on political activity.
 
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