The web of lies in Ferguson

[ApostateAbe]

This claim was met by a series of accusations of racism. I actually agree. It is racist. The lesson is: sometimes racism is correct. More specifically, those who are part of an ideological movement will give misleading accounts and tell lies. That includes at least the black community of Ferguson, Missouri, with their false claims motivated by a racial identity. If a statement is racist, that does not mean it is unreasonable. A statement is unreasonable if it does not fit the evidence and the patterns of the world.

I disagree that it's racist. Pointing out a reality with racial issues doesn't make something racist.

My perspective is that, sometimes, reality is racist. The definition of "racism" is flexible, and you can say, "If it is correct, then it is not racist," but that would be confounding the definition of racism for the sake of accepting a dogma, and I don't like dogmas. Let's be rid of the dogma. It is both racist and correct. Let's not care so much for whether a thought is racist. Let's care whether or not it is correct.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It isn't reasonable to report inaccuracies in eyewitness testimony as 'lies'; eyewitness testimony is typically just as confused and contradictory in all court cases. It is well known to be the least reliable form of evidence - and, sadly, is often given totally unwarranted weight by both judges and juries.

I would be shocked if any court case - with or without the racial overtones of this particular matter - failed to provide similar examples of eyewitnesses getting things muddled or wrong, and/or using their prejudices rather than their memories to reconstruct the events they saw.

While in general I agree with you I do think some of this testimony is deliberate lying.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

It isn't reasonable to report inaccuracies in eyewitness testimony as 'lies'; eyewitness testimony is typically just as confused and contradictory in all court cases. It is well known to be the least reliable form of evidence - and, sadly, is often given totally unwarranted weight by both judges and juries.

I would be shocked if any court case - with or without the racial overtones of this particular matter - failed to provide similar examples of eyewitnesses getting things muddled or wrong, and/or using their prejudices rather than their memories to reconstruct the events they saw.

While in general I agree with you I do think some of this testimony is deliberate lying.

Loren. do you think black people have a special predisposition to lie?

 

[Testy Calibrate]

While in general I agree with you I do think some of this testimony is deliberate lying.

Loren. do you think black people have a special predisposition to lie?

the ones that make cops shoot them do.

 

[laughing dog]

It isn't reasonable to report inaccuracies in eyewitness testimony as 'lies'; eyewitness testimony is typically just as confused and contradictory in all court cases. It is well known to be the least reliable form of evidence - and, sadly, is often given totally unwarranted weight by both judges and juries.

I would be shocked if any court case - with or without the racial overtones of this particular matter - failed to provide similar examples of eyewitnesses getting things muddled or wrong, and/or using their prejudices rather than their memories to reconstruct the events they saw.

While in general I agree with you I do think some of this testimony is deliberate lying.

The identities of the witnesses in the grand jury are secret. So how can you or Apostate Abe conclude that it is the black witnesses that are lying?

 

[Angry Floof]

While in general I agree with you I do think some of this testimony is deliberate lying.

The identities of the witnesses in the grand jury are secret. So how can you or Apostate Abe conclude that it is the black witnesses that are lying?

They have cop-o-vision.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

While in general I agree with you I do think some of this testimony is deliberate lying.

Loren. do you think black people have a special predisposition to lie?

No. The problem is not blacks per se, it's the criminal subculture. Those who get shot by the police are generally from that subculture, it's no surprise they have friends and relatives who don't give a hoot about the truth.

I would expect to see the same sort of pattern if a KKKer were shot by a black policeman--fellow white supremacists would jump to his defense, right or wrong.

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While in general I agree with you I do think some of this testimony is deliberate lying.

The identities of the witnesses in the grand jury are secret. So how can you or Apostate Abe conclude that it is the black witnesses that are lying?

See the word "black" in my statement?

I said it looks like some of the witnesses were lying. Their skin color is unknown.

 

[Shadowy Man]

And some people are automatically jumping to the defense of the police officer, right or wrong.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Loren. do you think black people have a special predisposition to lie?

No. The problem is not blacks per se, it's the criminal subculture. Those who get shot by the police are generally from that subculture, it's no surprise they have friends and relatives who don't give a hoot about the truth.

I would expect to see the same sort of pattern if a KKKer were shot by a black policeman--fellow white supremacists would jump to his defense, right or wrong.

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While in general I agree with you I do think some of this testimony is deliberate lying.

The identities of the witnesses in the grand jury are secret. So how can you or Apostate Abe conclude that it is the black witnesses that are lying?

See the word "black" in my statement?

I said it looks like some of the witnesses were lying. Their skin color is unknown.

So, this wasn't you

I do not think Derec is grasping the nuance at play here : was Michael Brown a threat to Officer Wilson at the time Officer Wilson shot him several times to include 2 shots to the head one being fatal. The most recent video footage I linked to this a.m relates the spontaneous and immediate remarks made by 2 eyewitnesses to the shooting, within a short delay following the shooting. What one of the contractors exclaimed leaves NO room to interpret it any differently than his having witnessed Brown with his "hands up".

What derec is not getting is that no matter which criminal background Brown may have had, if he indeed indicated surrender by putting his hands up, Officer Wilson was to acknowledge it as such and NOT pursue to discharge his weapon on Brown to the culminating point of a fatal shot and resulting fatal wound to Brown's head.

Except when a black is shot you can pretty much count on black witnesses who say he was not a threat no matter what the facts are.

 

[ApostateAbe]

There really is no need for significant uncertainty about the racial identity of the witnesses. The vast majority of those living in the Northwinds complexes of Ferguson are black.

 

[Sarpedon]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the 'blue wall of silence.' The criminal conspiracy by which police cooperate to foil any and all investigations of police wrongdoing.

 

[Trausti]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the 'blue wall of silence.' The criminal conspiracy by which police cooperate to foil any and all investigations of police wrongdoing.

So the blue wall was able to get "witnesses" to commit perjury; disrupt the laws of nature so that the physical evidence would fit the officer's version of events. Damn, that's pretty powerful stuff.

 

[ApostateAbe]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the 'blue wall of silence.' The criminal conspiracy by which police cooperate to foil any and all investigations of police wrongdoing.

The blue wall of silence exists, but it would fail to explain the evidence that seems to exhonerate Darren Wilson.

 

[laughing dog]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the 'blue wall of silence.' The criminal conspiracy by which police cooperate to foil any and all investigations of police wrongdoing.

The blue wall of silence exists, but it would fail to explain the evidence that seems to exhonerate Darren Wilson.

How does the forensic evidence show that Wilson acted reasonably and that his fear for his life was reasonable?

 

[Sarpedon]

I was speaking in general, not specifically.

 

[Shadowy Man]

The blue wall of silence exists, but it would fail to explain the evidence that seems to exhonerate Darren Wilson.

How does the forensic evidence show that Wilson acted reasonably and that his fear for his life was reasonable?

It does not by itself, but it may support such a narrative. It may also support other narratives if those narratives were to have a chance to be discussed in open court.

 

[ApostateAbe]

The blue wall of silence exists, but it would fail to explain the evidence that seems to exhonerate Darren Wilson.

How does the forensic evidence show that Wilson acted reasonably and that his fear for his life was reasonable?

The evidence has been discussed earlier in the thread.

EDIT: No, that was another thread, I will repost it.

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This excerpt is from the interview of an associate professor of forensic pathology on PBS.org, to confirm the account of the shooting while Brown was reaching for the gun:

What I got from the report was that there’s a gunshot wound of the thumb that is going from the tip of the thumb towards the wrist.

And that particular wound, they had microscopic sections of. So this is new information. There’s particulate material in that wound that is consistent with gunpowder. And we now know that there have been gunshots, one or two gunshots in the vehicle.

So that is most likely the shot that occurred while the struggle was occurring in the vehicle. And it indicates that the hand was in line with the gun, meaning that the thumb was pointing towards the muzzle of the gun, for that trajectory to make sense.​

A second excerpt, to confirm the account of the shooting while Brown was charging forward:

And it also shows us that there is a downward trajectory at the top of the head, which really makes sense under these circumstances, if Mr. Brown is leaning forward or moving forward with his head down. So, that way, the top of his head is exposed to the bullet and to the officer who is shooting at him.​

 

[Shadowy Man]

A second excerpt, to confirm the account of the shooting while Brown was charging forward:

And it also shows us that there is a downward trajectory at the top of the head, which really makes sense under these circumstances, if Mr. Brown is leaning forward or moving forward with his head down. So, that way, the top of his head is exposed to the bullet and to the officer who is shooting at him.​

It's an interpretation to go from "leaning forward or moving forward" to "charging forward". The word "charging" has connotations beyond that which is mentioned in your indented text. I would further submit that the trajectory at the top of the head is also consistent with Mr. Brown *falling* forward.

 

[ApostateAbe]

A second excerpt, to confirm the account of the shooting while Brown was charging forward:

And it also shows us that there is a downward trajectory at the top of the head, which really makes sense under these circumstances, if Mr. Brown is leaning forward or moving forward with his head down. So, that way, the top of his head is exposed to the bullet and to the officer who is shooting at him.​

It's an interpretation to go from "leaning forward or moving forward" to "charging forward". The word "charging" has connotations beyond that which is mentioned in your indented text. I would further submit that the trajectory at the top of the head is also consistent with Mr. Brown *falling* forward.

Yes, all we absolutely know from the angular trajectory is that Brown was leaning forward at the time. He could have been either falling forward or charging forward, but the account that Brown was charging forward was put on the table by Darren Wilson and six of the witnesses, but the account that he was shot while FALLING forward was NOT put on the table by ANY of the witnesses. It is merely an ad hoc explanation. You can find ad hoc explanations for absolutely anything, to make anyone innocent or guilty per your design.

 

[Shadowy Man]

It's an interpretation to go from "leaning forward or moving forward" to "charging forward". The word "charging" has connotations beyond that which is mentioned in your indented text. I would further submit that the trajectory at the top of the head is also consistent with Mr. Brown *falling* forward.

Yes, all we absolutely know from the angular trajectory is that Brown was leaning forward at the time. He could have been either falling forward or charging forward, but the account that Brown was charging forward was put on the table by Darren Wilson and six of the witnesses, but the account that he was shot while FALLING forward was NOT put on the table by ANY of the witnesses. It is merely an ad hoc explanation. You can find ad hoc explanations for absolutely anything, to make anyone innocent or guilty per your design.

There was a question by laughing dog about what the forensic evidence itself shows, so I was referring primarily to that and not witness testimony.