The wise men meeting a child in a house vs Jesus in a manger

[excreationist]

In Matthew 2 the wise men saw a star rise after Jesus was born and met with King Herod. Herod had all of the boys in Bethlehem killed that were two years old and younger so Jesus would be that age too.

Matthew 2:9-11

After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen when it rose went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. When they saw the star, they were overjoyed. On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him.

Here are illustrations I had made that show a star over the house:

These show the wise men worshipping the child:

Normally illustrations would show the wise men near the manger in a nativity scene with Jesus as a newborn baby...

You can read my book about things like that here:

An Uncensored Guide to the Christmas Stories

Read the book/eBook online

guide4christmas.com

 

[WAB]

Wise men, ey? Well, what were they doing creeping about in a cowshed at three o'clock in the morning? That doesn't sound very wise to me.

 

[lostone]

Three 'kings' wandering around? Why does the old Xmas song call them kings, when astrologers was a more likely occupation?

 

[excreationist]

Wise men, ey? Well, what were they doing creeping about in a cowshed at three o'clock in the morning? That doesn't sound very wise to me.

It seems you aren't familiar with the actual Bible story I've been talking about. They found the child Jesus in a house - nothing to do with a cowshed... and their wisdom involved astrology.

 

[WAB]

Three 'kings' wandering around? Why does the old Xmas song call them kings, when astrologers was a more likely occupation?

Well, you could tell they were kings because they didn't have shit all over them.

**I see I should have added a to my prior post. Consider it appended to this one as well...

 

[excreationist]

Three 'kings' wandering around? Why does the old Xmas song call them kings, when astrologers was a more likely occupation?

An Uncensored Guide to the Christmas Stories

Read the book/eBook online

guide4christmas.com

Were the wise men kings?
Though Matthew doesn't say that the wise men were kings, there are Old Testament passages that many believe prophesy that the Messiah would be worshipped and given gifts by kings (Psalm 68:29, 72:10-11, Isaiah 49:7, 60:3-6).

 

[WAB]

As my posts will most likely get forgotten, let me 'splain that I was not making an argument but quoting from Monty Python and trying to be silly. Sorry, meant no disrespect.

 

[excreationist]

As my posts will most likely get forgotten, let me 'splain that I was not making an argument but quoting from Monty Python and trying to be silly. Sorry, meant no disrespect.

Maybe it is possible for humour to involve the toddler of Jesus being in a house somehow.... maybe he is at the age of being able to talk a bit....

 

[DrZoidberg]

Wise men, ey? Well, what were they doing creeping about in a cowshed at three o'clock in the morning? That doesn't sound very wise to me.

It seems you aren't familiar with the actual Bible story I've been talking about. They found the child Jesus in a house - nothing to do with a cowshed... and their wisdom involved astrology.

The Bible clearly states that they were magi. Ie Zoroastrian priests. Calling them astrologers or kings is a later Latin re-interpretatation.

Here's a good summar I have found, which explains why the author chose to insert, specifically, magi into the story. Because common sense leads me to deduce that Jesus was intended to be a second coming of Zoroaster, or something. A very different religion. So obviously not that. It's got to be something else.

Who Were the Three Wise Men?

'We Three Kings of Orient Are' is a popular carol, But we're not sure that 'The Three Wise Men were kings, were three, were from the Orient, or were wise.

www.wondriumdaily.com

It also amuses me that three magi from the east brings gifts specifically associated with Ethiopia, the exact opposite direction. We know why this is. There was a lot of contact with Caanan and Egypt back they and Gold, Frankincense and Myrrh is the pinacle of fanciness for the Egyptians.

If fancy magi from the East would have shown up with fancy gifts, it's more likely to have been lapis lazuli, saffron, jasmine oil, etc. And gold of course.

But these guys are a literary convention, so it's fine that they are the way they are. The message is clear, priests from a religion more ancient than Judaism had a prophecy about the coming of a new messiah, and brought the appropriate gifts for a man of Jesus' standing. The age of Zoroastrianism is important since Romans fetishised the age of religious texts. The older the better and more authoritative.

 

[excreationist]

Wise men, ey? Well, what were they doing creeping about in a cowshed at three o'clock in the morning? That doesn't sound very wise to me.

It seems you aren't familiar with the actual Bible story I've been talking about. They found the child Jesus in a house - nothing to do with a cowshed... and their wisdom involved astrology.

The Bible clearly states that they were magi. Ie Zoroastrian priests. Calling them astrologers or kings is a later Latin re-interpretatation.

My favourite translation, the NIRV calls them "wise men". I thought using the stars to determine things on earth is basically what astrology is all about. It is interesting they would be Zoroastrian priests because Luke also features priests a lot.
https://guide4christmas.com/read-it/#luke

....It also amuses me that three magi from the east brings gifts specifically associated with Ethiopia, the exact opposite direction. We know why this is. There was a lot of contact with Caanan and Egypt back they and Gold, Frankincense and Myrrh is the pinacle of fanciness for the Egyptians.

Note Isaiah 60:6 talks about "They will bring gold and frankincense" (WEB) though most translations say "incense".

As far as Zoroastrianism influence in the Bible goes I thought it involves hell and I thought hell is only later in the Bible....

 

[DrZoidberg]

Wise men, ey? Well, what were they doing creeping about in a cowshed at three o'clock in the morning? That doesn't sound very wise to me.

It seems you aren't familiar with the actual Bible story I've been talking about. They found the child Jesus in a house - nothing to do with a cowshed... and their wisdom involved astrology.

The Bible clearly states that they were magi. Ie Zoroastrian priests. Calling them astrologers or kings is a later Latin re-interpretatation.

My favourite translation, the NIRV calls them "wise men". I thought using the stars to determine things on earth is basically what astrology is all about. It is interesting they would be Zoroastrian priests because Luke also features priests a lot.
https://guide4christmas.com/read-it/#luke

The original Greek says "magi". That term had gotten to mean lots of different things and have a variety of connotations at the time of the birth of Jesus. But the text says magi and Zoroastrianism was still going strong in Persia, at the time.

....It also amuses me that three magi from the east brings gifts specifically associated with Ethiopia, the exact opposite direction. We know why this is. There was a lot of contact with Caanan and Egypt back they and Gold, Frankincense and Myrrh is the pinacle of fanciness for the Egyptians.

Note Isaiah 60:6 talks about "They will bring gold and frankincense" (WEB) though most translations say "incense".

As far as Zoroastrianism influence in the Bible goes I thought it involves hell and I thought hell is only later in the Bible....

Hell is a complicated matter. The idea of a Christian style hell was an up and coming trend around 500 AD. Specifically associated with Mazdak and Mani, as well as Gnosticsm generally. So a much later idea than any of the religions it came to influence.

Hell in the Bible is "sheol". The equivalent of Hades. For the pagans (and ancient Jews) life on Earth was the main event. Everyone would sooner or later end up in Sheol, regardless of how good you had been.

The Heavenly afterlife was an evolving concept while the Bible was being written, and is never nailed down (in the Bible).

Yes, the Zoroastrian influence on the Bible is great

 

[excreationist]

As far as Zoroastrianism influence in the Bible goes I thought it involves hell and I thought hell is only later in the Bible....

Hell is a complicated matter. The idea of a Christian style hell was an up and coming trend around 500 AD. Specifically associated with Mazdak and Mani, as well as Gnosticsm generally. So a much later idea than any of the religions it came to influence.

Hell in the Bible is "sheol". The equivalent of Hades. For the pagans (and ancient Jews) life on Earth was the main event. Everyone would sooner or later end up in Sheol, regardless of how good you had been.

The Heavenly afterlife was an evolving concept while the Bible was being written, and is never nailed down (in the Bible).

Yes, the Zoroastrian influence on the Bible is great

Zoroastrianism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This talks about "judgement after death". I'm talking about a hell that bad people go to, not sheol that everyone would go to... perhaps the Old Testament didn't involve that but the NT did.

 

[DrZoidberg]

As far as Zoroastrianism influence in the Bible goes I thought it involves hell and I thought hell is only later in the Bible....

Hell is a complicated matter. The idea of a Christian style hell was an up and coming trend around 500 AD. Specifically associated with Mazdak and Mani, as well as Gnosticsm generally. So a much later idea than any of the religions it came to influence.

Hell in the Bible is "sheol". The equivalent of Hades. For the pagans (and ancient Jews) life on Earth was the main event. Everyone would sooner or later end up in Sheol, regardless of how good you had been.

The Heavenly afterlife was an evolving concept while the Bible was being written, and is never nailed down (in the Bible).

Yes, the Zoroastrian influence on the Bible is great

Zoroastrianism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This talks about "judgement after death". I'm talking about a hell that bad people go to, not sheol that everyone would go to... perhaps the Old Testament didn't involve that but the NT did.

The version of hell you are describing is an idea that came long after Christian and Zoroastrian religious texts had been nailed down. So isn't in those texts. The Quran does have the kind of hell you are describing. Because it was written around the time these ideas was trending. Christian theology didn't stop evolving just because the Biblical canon had been agreed upon. That was Martin Luthers main gripe with Catholicism in 1452. Catholicism was and is a living and continually evolving religion. Which has always been true for every religion.

When studying ancient religion it's very important to keep in mind that Christianity is (relatively) an incredibly simple and unsophisticated religion. Which is why they argue so much. In other religions multiple interpretations of the same text is welcomed, and probably, by design.

All the other religions just have more depth to them. Except Islam. That one is the same shit. But even Judaism is many times more sophisticated than it's dumbed down sequel.

Heaven in Zoroastrianism is an ideal state. It's something to strive for. You'll never get there. But it's worth your while to try. That's the point of it.

In Zoroastrian theology life is locked into an eternal struggle between Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu. Ahura Mazda is the god of order and Angra Mainyu is the god of chaos. Constantly strive to better yourself and your community or things will become less efficient and might fall apart. It's metaphors, for life.

Zoroastrian religion works perfectly well if you're an atheist. It's practices will make your life better even if you see it all as just a metaphor.

Almost half of all today active magi identify as atheist. At least according to a survey done ten years ago.

 

[Elixir]

Trying to picture three adult males skulking around someone’s house in the middle of the night. These days they’d get shot.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Trying to picture three adult males skulking around someone’s house in the middle of the night. These days they’d get shot.

The ancient world was a lot more violent than today. If they hadn't each brought an army they would have been murdered. Me personaly, I think it's implied by the story. The ancients hearing the story, they would have just assumed it

 

[excreationist]

Zoroastrianism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This talks about "judgement after death". I'm talking about a hell that bad people go to, not sheol that everyone would go to... perhaps the Old Testament didn't involve that but the NT did.

The version of hell you are describing is an idea that came long after Christian and Zoroastrian religious texts had been nailed down. So isn't in those texts.

What about this:
Matthew 25:32-33, 46:

All the nations will be gathered in front of him. He will separate the people into two groups. He will be like a shepherd who separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep to his right and the goats to his left.......“Then they will go away to be punished forever. But those who have done what is right will receive eternal life.”

 

[WAB]

Trying to picture three adult males skulking around someone’s house in the middle of the night. These days they’d get shot.

Yeah, especially if they had myrrh on them. Myrrh is a valuable balm. Or a dangerous animal, depending on the films you watch.

Last one, promise...

 

[excreationist]

Trying to picture three adult males skulking around someone’s house in the middle of the night. These days they’d get shot.

Yeah, especially if they had myrrh on them. Myrrh is a valuable balm. Or a dangerous animal, depending on the films you watch.

Last one, promise...

Just curious - what do you mean it is a dangerous animal?

 

[steve_bank]

From an Iranian Muslim I knew I got the idea the 3 Wise Men in Iranian mythology were Persians. Zorastorians.

The myth lends credibility to the narrative and probably served to widen the appeal of the Jesus story.

 

[WAB]

Trying to picture three adult males skulking around someone’s house in the middle of the night. These days they’d get shot.

Yeah, especially if they had myrrh on them. Myrrh is a valuable balm. Or a dangerous animal, depending on the films you watch.

Last one, promise...

Just curious - what do you mean it is a dangerous animal?

It's from the opening scene of Life of Brian by Monty Python...sort of...

I promise I'll stop.