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Theological Fine Tuning

The point had less to do with my sadness than the mistaken point I was responding to. The anthropic principle is a philosophical/theological principle, not a scientific one. There is no evidence that can verify it, since science can only deal with what can be observed. And we can't even be sure that what we observe is the result of the uniformity of physical laws. We can only assume it. Scientists quite often take philosophical or theistic positions that are nonscientific. Because a scientist makes a claim, that doesn't make the claim scientific.
There's no such thing as assuming the uniformity of physical laws. A lot of people say science is based on that assumption, but they're not even wrong. It's a nonsense phrase. There are only statements about reality that are always true, and statements about reality that aren't always true. That's not an assumption; that's a tautology. A "physical law that isn't always true" isn't an alternative hypothesis from some sort of alternative nonscientific worldview, one we need to assume isn't how the universe works in order to do science. It's just a contradiction in terms.

Thanks for your feedback, but I don't think you quite grasp the  problem of induction. Hume's  Doctrine of Uniformity (or uniformitarianism) is a doctrine, not a fact. It is quite possible that some of the phenomena we observe in nature came about from different physical laws or are miracles, i.e. events that contravene the laws of nature. We can never be sure that they are not, just as we can never be 100% certain whether or not a god fine-tuned the universe to create beings like ourselves.
 
No. The universe can be scientifically described as "finely tuned" for life without necessarily requiring use of the word "God".
No, it can't be.

No. The universe can be scientifically described as "finely tuned" for life <snip>
No, it can't be. Never mind God; the whole idea that the observed universe shows signs of fine-tuning is unscientific from the get-go. It's based on calculating from the currently accepted laws of quantum mechanics and general relativity that if, say, the fine-structure constant were 1/136 instead of 1/137, the universe would be inconsistent with life so we wouldn't be here. The trouble with that whole line of reasoning is that we can already calculate from the currently accepted laws of quantum mechanics and general relativity that the universe is already inconsistent with life and we shouldn't be here at all even with a fine-structure constant of 1/137. There's no point in explaining how tiny the life-compatible island is in comparison with the life-incompatible ocean of possible universes, when we already know the size of the island is 0.

The currently accepted laws of quantum mechanics and general relativity are inconsistent with life, because they're inconsistent with everything, because they're inconsistent with each other. So all talk of fine-tuning of physical constants is after-work chat-over-a-beer material; it isn't science. For it to become science, first we need a working theory of quantum gravity. Until we have one, any attempt to derive scientific or metaphysical or theological conclusions from apparent fine-tuning is premature.
 
There's no such thing as assuming the uniformity of physical laws. A lot of people say science is based on that assumption, but they're not even wrong. It's a nonsense phrase. There are only statements about reality that are always true, and statements about reality that aren't always true. That's not an assumption; that's a tautology. A "physical law that isn't always true" isn't an alternative hypothesis from some sort of alternative nonscientific worldview, one we need to assume isn't how the universe works in order to do science. It's just a contradiction in terms.

Thanks for your feedback, but I don't think you quite grasp the  problem of induction. Hume's  Doctrine of Uniformity (or uniformitarianism) is a doctrine, not a fact.
I think I understand the problem of induction; but I don't see how it applies here. Induction is a problem to the extent that we rely on it to judge the probability that our opinion about how the world works is correct; but whether we know what the laws of physics are is immaterial to what the laws of physics are. Induction is an epistemology problem; we're debating ontology.

Your other link leads to a "Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name." page. Assuming what you meant was the "Uniformity of Nature" link inside your first link, well, as that links says, "In geology, uniformitarianism has included the gradualistic concept that "the present is the key to the past" (that events occur at the same rate now as they have always done); many geologists now, however, no longer hold to a strict theory of gradualism... Today, Earth's history is considered to have been a slow, gradual process, punctuated by occasional natural catastrophic events." To whatever extent assumptions of uniformity are of any use to working scientists, they can be and sometimes are refuted by observation, and science does not vanish in a puff of logic.

It is quite possible that some of the phenomena we observe in nature came about from different physical laws or are miracles, i.e. events that contravene the laws of nature. We can never be sure that they are not,
Sure we can. No, it is not possible. "Events that contravene the laws of nature" is a phrase that can only refer to fiction. Hume's thinking on this matter in "Of Miracles" is contaminated by the pre-scientific habits of thought that were near-universal at that time. People still thought of "laws of nature" as analogous to legal laws, enacted by a lawgiver; God commands that action shall equal reaction, and the atoms obey. It's the historical reason for why even now we call them "laws".

But strip away that Renaissance mindset, and imagine yourself actually observing an event contravening this equivalence. Suppose the EM Drive is confirmed to work. (And not just by enthusiastic NASA engineers desperately hoping for starships, but by CERN physicists accustomed to doubting their measuring devices.) Would you call it "a miracle", "an event that contravenes the laws of nature"? Or would you call it "Newton's Third Law of Motion follows his Law of Gravity into history's dustbin"? When Mercury didn't move the way Newton said it must, we didn't infer a miracle. We inferred General Relativity.

You're probably inclined to respond, "But that's epistemology! Just because we can't know it's a miracle doesn't mean it's not a miracle.". Fair enough. So let's talk ontology. What is an "event that contravenes the laws of nature"? To answer that, we have to answer, "What is a law of nature that an event contravenes"? A law of nature is a proposition that the world does something. What's the ontological difference between a proposition that's a "law of nature that an event contravenes" and a proposition that's "wrong"? My contention is that supporters of the Doctrine of Uniformity cannot supply any principled conceptual difference between a falsehood about the universe that's a "contravened natural law", and a falsehood about the universe that's "not really a natural law".

just as we can never be 100% certain whether or not a god fine-tuned the universe to create beings like ourselves.
What's a "god"? What's a "universe"? If everything we can see was in fact intelligently fine-tuned in order to create beings like ourselves, why would you call the perpetrator a "god" rather than an "alien"? For all we know it might not even be smarter than us; maybe what we see was the high-school project of a child that simply had access to its species' vastly superior technology and it did its fine-tuning literally, by fiddling with the knobs by trial-and-error until something intelligent came out in the debris. What's the conceptual difference between a "god" and an "alien"?
 
The point had less to do with my sadness than the mistaken point I was responding to. The anthropic principle is a philosophical/theological principle, not a scientific one. There is no evidence that can verify it, since science can only deal with what can be observed. And we can't even be sure that what we observe is the result of the uniformity of physical laws. We can only assume it. Scientists quite often take philosophical or theistic positions that are nonscientific. Because a scientist makes a claim, that doesn't make the claim scientific.

Ok , I think what Tigers was pointing out was , the "anthropic principle" was a principle by atheists. I doubt that a scientist, even with a theist baclground would make such a claim through scientific method in the arena of science. A suggestion or even a hypothesis perhaps with certain data or its behaviour maybe, but certainly not a claim.

Your caveat--"as far as we can tell"--is where the logic of the argument breaks down. And habitable spaces for our kind of being are actually exceedingly rare in the universe. There was a very long period when no such spaces existed at all, and--as far as we can tell--they will cease to exist at all in the future. You might as well say that the pot in my kitchen is fine-tuned as a hat because I can wear it on my head. There are a lot of things one can do with pots that have nothing to do with why they exist.

The "caveat" in my previous post was puttimg the theist POV aside, but we seem to be on the same page at least: "as far as we can tell" (without actual observation of the variable fine-tuning process).

So if the understanding is right (or if I understand it right) the naturalist view of the universe believes gravity is throughout as would be with all the forces known. So what makes life so rare by the concept ? Either the universe is "abundant" with life whereby the universe shares the same physical processes ,forces and elements or ... we are indeed so "rare" and "unique" which may mean we have a rather unique one-only environment not like any of the enumerous, uncountable, places in the universe.

Somethings still "amiss" with what seems to me as contradictory.

A seemingly invisible bubble around our unique space, ... so rare considering there are (apparently) uncountable stars and planets out there in our galaxy alone which combined with other galaxies has numbers for "every" situation for life begining just as ours more or less. (and thats just carbon based life) Or... is it that , we are the very "first" and life elsewhere will then appear later? Striking that there's been apparently 13.5 billion years ...plenty of time like every where else.( no indications of highly advanced life IOW)

Aliens existing would be in your favour conceptually.
 
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God has no beginning therefore was not created, he has no cause.

Claiming that God "has no beginning" is just an elaboration on the attempt to claim an exception from causality, and is a straightforward example of special pleading.
Again the context was theism. The eternality of God predates the argument thus there is no special pleading. If something is eternal it has no cause.

This is a circular argument: If my asshole is eternal it has no cause. . . .
 
God has no beginning therefore was not created, he has no cause.

Claiming that God "has no beginning" is just an elaboration on the attempt to claim an exception from causality, and is a straightforward example of special pleading.
Again the context was theism. The eternality of God predates the argument thus there is no special pleading. If something is eternal it has no cause.

Anthropomorphic ideations of god as having no beginning doesn't play so well chiefly because our conception of existential being are driven by the relationship between cause and effect. To put it another way "Everything happens for a reason." Saying god has no beginning is just another form of turtles all the way down.

Note that this idea works perfectly fine if we don't presume god as a material entity possessing agency and thoughts of its own but as a psycological expression of our ideals.
 
God has no beginning therefore was not created, he has no cause.

Claiming that God "has no beginning" is just an elaboration on the attempt to claim an exception from causality, and is a straightforward example of special pleading.
Again the context was theism. The eternality of God predates the argument thus there is no special pleading. If something is eternal it has no cause.

Claiming that God is eternal, has no beginning, exists outside time etc are all variations on the same claim for an exception from the rules of causality.
 
What I am suggesting is that if an existing Universe that can support life is unlikely, and cannot happen by chance, a Universe that can support existence of a God as described is even more unlikely. Theological fine tuning simply points out that problem.
Classical biblical doctrine states that God supports the universe, the universe does not support God.
The fine tuning argument is what philosopher Schopenhauer called a taxi cab argument, an argument used to arrive to a desired conclusion and then dismissed.
Never heard of the taxi cab argument. Seems like most of our arguments are such taxi cabs.
 
No. The universe can be scientifically described as "finely tuned" for life without necessarily requiring use of the word "God".
No, it can't be.

Show me the word "God" anywhere in the probability equations.

Saying the universe was 'finely tuned' requires by necessity a tuner. The universe may have created conditions for life but there's no reason to assume this wasn't just random chance.
 
What I am suggesting is that if an existing Universe that can support life is unlikely, and cannot happen by chance, a Universe that can support existence of a God as described is even more unlikely. Theological fine tuning simply points out that problem.
Classical biblical doctrine states that God supports the universe, the universe does not support God.
The fine tuning argument is what philosopher Schopenhauer called a taxi cab argument, an argument used to arrive to a desired conclusion and then dismissed.
Never heard of the taxi cab argument. Seems like most of our arguments are such taxi cabs.

It has been around a while. A form of special pleading.
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http://neophilosophical.blogspot.com/2012/09/the-misquoting-wlc.html

Alexander Pruss mentions it a couple of times, in a paper in Religious Studies:

II. Schopenhauer’s taxi-cab objection. The taxi-cab objection says that once the existence of the First Cause is inferred, the PSR (Principle of Sufficient Reason - ed) is dismissed, like a taxi after it has brought us to our destination, instead of being applied to the First Cause or its creative act.

and in a philosophy dissertation (note that while Dr Pruss seems to be a theist, his blog and papers indicate that he is probably not an apologist):

First of all, if one brings God in as a first cause, as an explanation of all things other than himself, then to avoid Schopenhauer’s “taxi cab” objection to the cosmological argument (Schopenhauer charged that the causal principle behind the cosmological argument was dismissed once the existence of God was proved, like a cab that is no longer needed once one is at the destination, and not applied to God himself) one must affirm that God is the explanation of his own existence, perhaps by there being a sound ontological argument, though possibly outside of our grasp, for his existence or by his existence being implicated by his essence.

Note the use of the objection. It’s an objection to the use of God as a first cause. In other words, it’s specifically an objection to an argument that God made the universe. So, it’s a counter to the very argument of Cosmological Contingency that Craig is defending when he invokes the “fallacy”!

This is intellectual dishonesty of staggering proportions.
 
The brute fact of the existence of the universe as we see it, and of ourselves within that universe, is evidence only for itself.

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No matter how unlikely existence appears to be, it's present before our eyes at every moment. For God, or gods, such is not the case.
 
No. The universe can be scientifically described as "finely tuned" for life without necessarily requiring use of the word "God".
No, it can't be.

Show me the word "God" anywhere in the probability equations.
Dude! Did you even read the rest of my post? "God" doesn't need to be anywhere in the probability equations. The universe also can't be scientifically described as "finely tuned" for life without necessarily requiring use of the word "Godzilla". The universe can't be scientifically described as "finely tuned" for life, full stop. We do not yet have enough science to scientifically tell the difference between a fine-tuned universe and a life-was-practically-inevitable universe.
 
Show me the word "God" anywhere in the probability equations.
Dude! Did you even read the rest of my post? "God" doesn't need to be anywhere in the probability equations. The universe also can't be scientifically described as "finely tuned" for life without necessarily requiring use of the word "Godzilla". The universe can't be scientifically described as "finely tuned" for life, full stop. We do not yet have enough science to scientifically tell the difference between a fine-tuned universe and a life-was-practically-inevitable universe.
Wouldn't we also need, somewhere in there, a formal definition of 'life?'
 
Show me the word "God" anywhere in the probability equations.
Dude! Did you even read the rest of my post? "God" doesn't need to be anywhere in the probability equations. The universe also can't be scientifically described as "finely tuned" for life without necessarily requiring use of the word "Godzilla". The universe can't be scientifically described as "finely tuned" for life, full stop. We do not yet have enough science to scientifically tell the difference between a fine-tuned universe and a life-was-practically-inevitable universe.
Wouldn't we also need, somewhere in there, a formal definition of 'life?'

Slightly off-topic but is the biological definition philosophically insufficient?
 
Wouldn't we also need, somewhere in there, a formal definition of 'life?'

Slightly off-topic but is the biological definition philosophically insufficient?
For this purpose, yes it is. The focus on life isn't quite right. As Wikipedia says, "The anthropic principle is a philosophical consideration that observations of the universe must be compatible with the conscious and sapient life that observes it.". So what we should be focusing on is whether there's fine-tuning for conscious observers, not whether there's fine-tuning for life. It makes a difference -- it means theists who hope to get mileage out of fine-tuning arguments and hope to escape the charge of special pleading by quibbling that God doesn't qualify as "life" are out of luck.
 
Wouldn't we also need, somewhere in there, a formal definition of 'life?'

Slightly off-topic but is the biological definition philosophically insufficient?

There is no single 'biological definition' of life.

Biologists use a variety of definitions, none of which produce a clear distinction between life and non-life that places all the things we want to call 'life' into the 'life' category, while simultaneously excluding all of the things we want to call non-life.

The idea that we have a single, universal, and categorical biological definition of life is widespread, but false.

For example, some of the various definitions of life include the ability to reproduce. But those definitions exclude huge numbers of animals and plants from the 'life' category. A definition in which my 90 year old aunt is not an example of 'life' because she never had children, is a poor definition. You might fudge things, and say that she had the potential to reproduce - but then you still exclude from 'life' any person born without functioning reproductive organs. A definition of 'life' that excludes some living, breathing human beings is not a very good definition.

Sadly though, if we exclude the ability to reproduce from our definition, we end up with things that fit our other criteria for 'life', but which we do not want to categorise as alive - things like hurricanes, landslides, or lava flows, for example.

'Alive' is one of those categories that we all seem to agree on, but are not able to easily define. That's probably because it's not a distinction that has an actual analog in reality - 'alive' isn't as meaningful as we are prone to assume, and reality doesn't fit neatly into the boxes we want to make for it.

Is a virus alive? What about a crystal? What about a crystal made up of viruses?
 
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