There is no God

[Cheerful Charlie]

First post here in this forum. Natural religion, the attempt to prove God exists, has been a notable failure since Plato essentially invented it in his "Laws - Book X". The burden of proof still lies on theism in light of this failure.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

God exists because ... because fuck you, that's why.

 

[braces_for_impact]

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Underseer]

Specific claims about specific gods are falsifiable. For instance, the Abrahamic religions insist that there is a being who is omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and the creator of the universe. That being cannot possibly exist because that collection of properties conflicts with the "creator of the universe" part. Heck, "omnipotent" is incoherent all by itself as a property of anything.

But in the general fuzzy deist sense, it's technically a non-falsifiable claim, just like bigfoot, just like faeries, leprechauns, hobgoblins, Thor, Zeus, and skull-juggling psychic were-walruses from Pluto.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

I have found god worship to be idolatry.

People always wind up worshiping the idea of their god which may start out as vast and all encompassing but always gets dogma-ed down to collections of sacred hopes and prejudices that the believer already had without the god-thingy.

 

[Davka]

I have found god worship to be idolatry.

People always wind up worshiping the idea of their god which may start out as vast and all encompassing but always gets dogma-ed down to collections of sacred hopes and prejudices that the believer already had without the god-thingy.

Back when dinosaurs roamed the Earth, I took an Anthropology class in college. I remember the prevailing theory at the time about the evolution of idols and gods went something like this: A community identifies certain attributes which the community as a whole values (and considers an integral part of their culture), such as bravery or cunning. The community then picks an animal which, in their estimation, embodies these attributes. This animal becomes a symbol of those attributes, and carvings or drawings of the animal are used as shorthand for the valued attributes.

Over time, this icon takes on more and more symbolic importance, eventually taking on a mystical ability to confer those attributes to those who venerate the icon. This is the shift to idol worship. Finally, the idol takes on all the significance of a god, and the people have forgotten that the whole thing started off as a way to personify and venerate the most important attributes of their own culture. The end product is a "god" shaped, quite literally, in the image of the tribe or culture. The community is now in effect worshiping itself by proxy.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Back when dinosaurs roamed the Earth, I took an Anthropology class in college. I remember the prevailing theory at the time about the evolution of idols and gods went something like this: A community identifies certain attributes which the community as a whole values (and considers an integral part of their culture), such as bravery or cunning. The community then picks an animal which, in their estimation, embodies these attributes. This animal becomes a symbol of those attributes, and carvings or drawings of the animal are used as shorthand for the valued attributes.

Over time, this icon takes on more and more symbolic importance, eventually taking on a mystical ability to confer those attributes to those who venerate the icon. This is the shift to idol worship. Finally, the idol takes on all the significance of a god, and the people have forgotten that the whole thing started off as a way to personify and venerate the most important attributes of their own culture. The end product is a "god" shaped, quite literally, in the image of the tribe or culture. The community is now in effect worshiping itself by proxy.

I agree, which is why I have had to wean myself off the whole god thing.

 

[Perspicuo]

I thought you were a disbeliever, Athena.

 

[aeebee50]

For me, it is better to believe in something than to believe in nothing.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

I thought you were a disbeliever, Athena.

I am an atheist who prays
I am an agnostic who is sure
I am a skeptic that believes
I am a naturalist that revels in the holy mystery

I am neither saint nor sinner but have practiced both virtue and vice

I practice my humanism religiously and my religion humanely

I have partaken of the Balm of Gilead, and though scarred I am healed and while not holy, I am made now whole.

 

[Perspicuo]

For me, it is better to believe in something than to believe in nothing.

I believe in many things. Things that are plausible and reasonably coherent, tested with abundant evidence.

Also, I don't confuse belief with faith. I can hold "justifiable true beliefs" (i.e. knowledge), making faith (unjustified belief) unnecessary.

- - - Updated - - -

I am an atheist who prays
I am an agnostic who is sure
I am a skeptic that believes
I am a naturalist that revels in the holy mystery

I am neither saint nor sinner but have practiced both virtue and vice

I practice my humanism religiously and my religion humanely

I have partaken of the Balm of Gilead, and though scarred I am healed and while not holy, I am made now whole.

Extraordinarily bewildered here. Assistance requested. Over.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

I believe in many things. Things that are plausible and reasonably coherent, tested with abundant evidence.

Also, I don't confuse belief with faith. I can hold "justifiable true beliefs" (i.e. knowledge), making faith (unjustified belief) unnecessary.

- - - Updated - - -



Extraordinarily bewildered here. Assistance requested. Over.

Do I believe in an anthropomorphic god?
No.
Do I accept the god concept?
No.
Do I go to church?
Every Sunday. I have been a Unitarian Univeralist since 2004.
Am I a suprenaturalist?
Don't see the need to be. Natural nature appears pretty damn super to me.
Have I ever had a religious experience?
Often.
Was the experience real?
Always.
Do I attribute it to something supernatiral outside myself?
No.
Do I listen to gospel music and does it move me?
Yes but not contemporary gospel, which I find to be pabulum, but give me some Golden Gates, some Fairfeild Four, Sam Cooke and the Soul Stirrers, Albertina Walker, and of course, Mahalia Jackson, I will not only be moved, I will cry, shout, and dance.
I don't pray to a deity, but I do pray over things, stilling the din of distraction so that my mind concentrates on the problem and works through a solution. I do deep reading and repetitive recitation, much like a rosary, but instead of entreating the Virgin, I would use a poem or paragraph that sang to me.
I take as a matter of devotion James Luthor Adams' Five Smooth Stones of Liberal Religion and try everyday to realize them in my life.
I endulge in collective joy and celebration.
I love my neighbor as myself though I am not immune to anger nor do I wish to be.
I am human for that is how my parents made me but I am reverent of the holy and disgusted by the sinful. The holy is that which heals and binds us one to other and from which come loves. The sinful is that which destroys us and condemns us to detachment from other humans and our own humanity.
It is that humanity that is what we call imprecisely soul.


Any clearer?

 

[Rhea]

For me, it is better to believe in something than to believe in nothing.

Why? What's wrong in believing there are no magical hidden powers? What is the exact harm or dysfunction caused by "believing in nothing" such that "believing" in something PATENTLY FALSE becomes better?

Serious question, no snark. I actually do not get your proposition.

 

[Keith&Co.]

For me, it is better to believe in something than to believe in nothing.

have to disagree.
If you're believing just to have a belief, just for the sake of hope, then what happens if your beliefs are tested? Even shattered?
I've seen many angry atheists, in real life and the internet, who were not prepared for some loss and are now angry at their former security blanket. "I don't believe in God because He doesn't deserve any faith!" or "I don't believe in God...and HE knows it!"

I think it's far better to have a pessimistic outlook than an optimistic one. Either one can be wrong, can be surprised. But the pessimists are the ones who are pleasantly surprised.

 

[Perspicuo]

...
I love my neighbor as myself though I am not immune to anger nor do I wish to be.
I am human for that is how my parents made me but I am reverent of the holy and disgusted by the sinful. The holy is that which heals and binds us one to other and from which come loves. The sinful is that which destroys us and condemns us to detachment from other humans and our own humanity.
It is that humanity that is what we call imprecisely soul.


Any clearer?

Couldn't be any clearer.

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I believe in everything. That's the beauty of justfiable true beliefs.

I believe in everything that exists, and I believe fantasies... as fantasies.

 

[Thomas II]

I am an atheist who prays
I am an agnostic who is sure
I am a skeptic that believes
I am a naturalist that revels in the holy mystery

I am neither saint nor sinner but have practiced both virtue and vice

I practice my humanism religiously and my religion humanely

I have partaken of the Balm of Gilead, and though scarred I am healed and while not holy, I am made now whole.

Very nice...

 

[Clivedurdle]

Specific claims about specific gods are falsifiable.

What does an unspecific god look like? And why would vague gods have more truthiness than specific gods? Are not all gods falsifiable because they are human inventions?

- - - Updated - - -

 

[Atheos]

I don't see where anyone is arguing that an unfalsifiable god has more truthiness than a falsifiable one. It is not possible to prove that all gods are human inventions, but even if it was that has nothing to do with whether or not the god is falsifiable. I can invent "Hooquarn," an invisible spirit being who has the ability to make my dog bark. Hooquarn occasionally makes my dog bark for no apparent reason, but sometimes the dog barks for reasons having nothing to do with Hooquarn. Hooquarn may go months or years without choosing to make my dog bark. Hooquarn's ways are mysterious.

If I were to convince an individual that this version of Hooquarn existed it would be literally impossible for you to prove that he does not exist. There is no test you can do, no experiment you can perform and no fact to which you can appeal that would demonstrate the non-existence of Hooquarn. Hooquarn is an unfalsifiable claim precisely because there is nothing falsifiable about the claim. If my dog barks immediately after a strange noise is heard I could claim that it was Hooquarn causing my dog to bark, not the strange noise. Even if you were able to spend years documenting every possible reason for every bark my dog ever uttered I could still claim that Hooquarn will act when Hooquarn chooses to act and not before.

A falsifiable version of Hooquarn might be as follows: "If you say Hooquarn's name rapidly 3 times in succession the dog nearest to you will immediately bark three times." This is a very specific claim that can be tested and verified, assuming you can avoid rationalizations such as "You're saying his name wrong" or "You're not saying it fast enough" or "You must have faith in Hooquarn or it won't work."

That's sort of like Jesus's claim that if you had faith like a grain of mustard seed you could command a mountain and it would levitate from its position, float out and drop into the sea. Rationalizations abound for why this claim will never be proven true.

 

[Failte]

For me, it is better to believe in something than to believe in nothing.

I'm curious about this. Why is it better for you to believe in something? Why it is better to believe in something that cannot be shown to be true?

A serious question, not snarky at all. I hear this a lot from my friends who are believers -- they very much NEED god to exist to make them feel...complete? Worthy? I can't quite figure it out.

I don't believe in "nothing", I simply lack belief in the existence of a deity (or deities). There is no 'there' for me to believe in, so I don't. BUt I don't feel as if i'm missing something or it woudl be better to feign belief in such a thing, because the alternative was "to believe in nothing". That just doesn't make sense to me. Can you elaborate?

 

[WAB]

I think God is something like a whale.