• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

There isn't really a 'freewill problem'.

You're the one who admitted you didn't understand compatibilism.

I don't get why it's a good case for using the term free will.

ETA: or should I say I don't agree it's a good case, on balance.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm simply presenting it as one alternative to libertarian counter-causal free will.

Go ahead and present it then. You must surely mean valid alternative because if you thought it was invalid you wouldn't be presenting it. What's your case for it? I mean you surely can't go around saying other positions are arbitrary and without reason and not be prepared to set out an alternative?
 
Go ahead in that case. You must surely mean valid alternative because if you thought it was invalid you wouldn't be presenting it. What's your case? I mean you surely can't go around saying other positions are arbitrary and without reason and not have any alternative case.
You're misunderstanding the nature of the dispute.

Either the claim that 'will' cannot be described as 'free' because 'will' is subject to deterministic causality is fallacious reasoning (special pleading) or it's not. This is true irrespective of whether or not you think compatibilism is 'valid' (whatever that may mean).
 
Go ahead in that case. You must surely mean valid alternative because if you thought it was invalid you wouldn't be presenting it. What's your case? I mean you surely can't go around saying other positions are arbitrary and without reason and not have any alternative case.
You're misunderstanding the nature of the dispute.

Either the claim that 'will' cannot be described as 'free' because 'will' is subject to deterministic causality is fallacious reasoning (special pleading) or it's not. This is true irrespective of whether or not you think compatibilism is 'valid' (whatever that may mean).

Sorry, but that's just complete bollocks. This is about the case(s) for one use of a term over another. You want to say one case is wrong (arbitrary and without reason) or that just to say it's right is wrong, and you 'present an alternative' that you won't actually present when asked.

Thanks for completely wasting my time.
 
Sorry, but that's just complete bollocks. This is a case of one use of a term over another and the respective cases. You want to say one is wrong, or that to say it's right is wrong, and you 'present an alternative; that you won't actually present.
Which use do you think I'm saying is "wrong"? (supporting quotes would be appreciated)
 
At risk of repeating myself ad nauseam, you said that the claim that free will is the wrong term was arbitrary and without rational reason.

Look, unless you are up for putting to me your case for an alternative, I'm really not interested.
 
At risk of repeating myself ad nauseam, you said that the claim that free will is the wrong term was arbitrary and without rational reason.
I've never said any such thing. (this is why I asked for supporting quotes)
 
Rubbish. I quoted you.

Now look, either stop obfuscating and come up with an alternative case or bugger off, quite honestly.
 
Yeah. I just did it again there now too.
You quickly slipped in an extra post with a quote.

I'm simply objecting to the arbitrary claim that the word free cannot be used to describe 'will'.

It's not an arbitrary claim, nor is it without reason. It's that simple.
The only thing that follows from the fact that 'will' is subject to deterministic causes is that 'will' cannot be described as free from deterministic causes. I have no problem with this

Both you and DBT seem to want to go further and say that because 'will' is subject to deterministic causes the word 'free' cannot (sensibly/reasonably) be used to describe 'will'. This simply does not follow.

If you can't see the difference between the two claims, then I can't help you.
 
Both you and DBT seem to want to go further and say that because 'will' is subject to deterministic causes the word 'free' cannot (sensibly/reasonably) be used to describe 'will'. This simply does not follow.

It may indeed not necessarily follow, but it is not an arbitrary position/claim that is without reason or rational argument. Do you not agree?

- - - Updated - - -

You quickly slipped in an extra post with a quote.

I had already quoted you previously, actually.
 
Both you and DBT seem to want to go further and say that because 'will' is subject to deterministic causes the word 'free' cannot (sensibly/reasonably) be used to describe 'will'. This simply does not follow.

It may indeed not follow, but it is not an arbitrary position that is without reason. Do you not agree?

We don't apply this reasoning to any other current usage of the word 'free'. In other words it's special pleading.

In the absence of a coherent argument in support of this special pleading, it is indeed arbitrary and irrational.
 
Both you and DBT seem to want to go further and say that because 'will' is subject to deterministic causes the word 'free' cannot (sensibly/reasonably) be used to describe 'will'. This simply does not follow.

It may indeed not follow, but it is not an arbitrary position that is without reason. Do you not agree?

We don't apply this reasoning to any other current usage of the word 'free'. In other words it's special pleading.

In the absence of a coherent argument in support of this special pleading, it is indeed arbitrary and irrational.

It was and has been accompanied by argument, by that poster, whose position has been clear for quite a long time and has been argued for. That is why it was wrong of you to say that it was arbitrary. Now it's irrational too?

I'm saying this for the last time, set out an alternative case for why it's not the wrong term or don't. Otherwise I'm not responding any further at this time and you're going in my book as pointess heckler who won't step up to the plate.
 
Calling other people's claims arbitrary, irrational, incoherent or lacking in reasoning is just having a cheap shot, imo, especially if you're not prepared to make a case for an alternative. The topic deserves better.
 
Last edited:
How did the concept of 'free will' arise in the first place? Why did it arise? What do the words 'free' and 'will' signify when used in this way? If we have no free will, why do we have a sense of free-ness that led to the term?

Maybe, given the above, it's not that we don't have free-will, but rather our conception of what free-will is, and why the concept arose is mistaken.

Ok, there's no such thing as a ghost in the machine, flicking switches, easy enough to agree there, but if we can agree that this isn't a part of physical reality then why are we arguing that this is the source of the term? Why is a ghost in the machine the bench-mark to prove we are free beings, or the term free-will has any meaning?

Perhaps the ghost is a primitive rationalisation of our concept of freeness, but even if not there the sense of freeness and free will is still there.

So what is free will in practice? What is it that we are sensing to describe our experience that way? I'd argue it's not very complicated. Living is the act of willing, and we are free to will. In layman's terms, we are free beings in the world who are constantly exerting themselves, hence the sense of freeness.

It probably arose, as you suggest, from the perception of conscious agency, the ability to think and decide and to act. This assumption becomes questionable when that perceived ability to make conscious decisions begins to break down due to brain dysfunction revealing the actual agent, brain state, not will, not consciousness, not the ability to make decisions, which is decision making, not will and not free will.

I'm going to continue a bit. In my opinion we have to do a couple things:

1) Make the mental shift from 'I have a mind' to 'I am minding', 'I have conscious agency' to 'I am a conscious agent', 'I have free-will' to 'I am free to will'

2) Determine what is meant by 'free' and 'will'. e.g. What does it mean to be a free body in the world? Where does the word 'will' come from and what does it signify?

I don't want to sound like I'm clinging to some 'God' concept, I'm mostly on board with your post, but this is only to say that I find the usual debate over 'freedom' being fought in the wrong ballpark. In other words, why does the lack of some vague concept of a mover mean that we are 'un-free'. Put yet another way, why isn't our freedom defined as our free conscious acting in the world?

I'd go further and argue that we are not perceiving that we make conscious decisions, we are making conscious decisions, but you again need to re-define what it means to make conscious decisions. If you continue to cling to the ghost in the machine, sure decision making isn't real, but it's just as easy to define my physical being as a 'conscious decision maker'.

The over-arching point here is that we need to completely remove our normal conception of 'free-will' and 'God' out of the equation and move the goal-posts. We can all agree that the universe is a completely physical system, but given that how do we define what it means to be a human being? What are we adding to the conversation by claiming that humans are 'un-free' when that points referent is a God that doesn't exist?

I'd also add that human society, in sum, in all of recorded history has been built around the concept that humans are decision makers who are responsible for their own actions, and so I hesitate to take the easy way out and just claim 'we are un-free beings with no self-control'. I think the reality is a little more complex than that.
 
There are a few studies which shed at least some light on what 'the person in the street' thinks free will is, and the picture which emerges is that it's often libertarian or libertarian-esque, often mixed up with something that seems like a version of compatibilism, and in fact in some situations, that we don't have any free will at all. In other words, it's a mish-mash, which is what we might expect it to be, because the 'person in the street' is mostly using folk psychology and hasn't spent enough time doing detailed philosophy.

If you want to know what most people would mean by free will if they ever use that expression, you better ignore philosophy altogether, because most people have no formal knowledge in philosophy. And I don't see any mechanism that would make philosophers strive to reflect the conception of the man on the street when discussing free will, whereas I can see how each philosopher may think of free will depending on his own personal ideological leanings.

What would definitely be more interesting is how people would use the expression if ever they had to use it, which is probably not very often. I suspect most people won't ever use it. I don't think I used it myself more than a couple of times in all my life, if that (outside this venue), except possibly in conversations around some hot political topic or other. So, overall, all you could do is opinion polls and I don't think those could work well unless the pollsters could give the necessary time for people to think about the idea of free will. Or perhaps, if they know of a clever way to tease out how people use the expression outside the context of a formal enquiry, something which sounds rather difficult to achieve.

Either way, because of its historical and folk psychology baggage, free will is arguably a loaded term and I go back to my analogy with defining god so it still exists.

Again, most people would have no or too little knowledge of whatever would be the "historical baggage" or the "folk psychology baggage" of free will to take those into account. People make up their own mind as to the psychology of human beings and human relations through their personal experience of life. They will come to a particular way of using the expression "free will" mostly through interaction with people close to them. It's the day-to-day practice of language that comes to determine the way we use words, and our practice of language is overwhelmingly through our relation with people who are the closest to us. There are specific situations, of course, such as religious communities but, nowadays, those have lost most of their influence.

So, I don't understand this fixation about this idea that "free will" is a loaded term. And that goes also for the word "God". I don't see how what most people mean by the word "God" could make it a loaded term. What counts is how people use these words, so probably what people mean when they use them, and nothing else.

though I do wonder what the capacities were that you thought you had before you formally encountered the term and the arguments, such as when you were aged 9 for example

Personally, my guess would be that we have an impression of possessing autonomous agency, and that has to be what we call "free will".

Why should I use the term freely-willed for a decision which is already determined? Allowing for the additional possibility of random.

There's no reason you should. It's just a fact that people will use the expression "free will", most of the time I would guess either to express the idea that they or human beings generally have free will, or to express the idea that somebody in particular has been deprived or never had free will because of some specific condition, such as a political context or some mental illness.

The expression "free will" is in use in the general population. People don't get to use it very often, if at all, but they still do. You can abstain if you have some reason for doing that. Me, I don't think there's any good reason. When in Rome, do as the Romans do, and that's a very good reason for me to use the term "free will" given that I don't see any good reason not to.
EB
 
The expression "free will" is in use in the general population. People don't get to use it very often, if at all, but they still do. You can abstain if you have some reason for doing that. Me, I don't think there's any good reason. When in Rome, do as the Romans do, and that's a very good reason for me to use the term "free will" given that I don't see any good reason not to.
EB

Fair enough. Although that is a sort of 'if it's not (apparently) broken or at least working ok, no need to fix it' or a 'status quo' approach and not especially progressive.

Whilst I definitely don't suggest that if society ditched their intuitive ideas about free will that everything in the garden would be rosy, a case could be made that (a) fairly radical reappraisal could do a lot to stem or ameliorate some of the historically most unsavoury aspects of human nature, specifically the urge for retribution and (often bloodthirsty) revenge and a stronger focus on the causes of undesirable behaviour and on prevention rather than cure and (b) that the gradual weakening in notions of free will that has taken place in certain 'civilised' countries (perhaps especially in courtrooms) in recent history, has already shown itself to have such benefits ('enlightenments' if you will) at least in part.

So there's one suggested reason. You don't have to find it compelling. Plus, there might be costs as well as benefits, notions of free will being apparently quite useful in many ways.

My main reason though is personal curiosity. I have no big plans for society or for changing the world for the better (or worse). I just like to try to know and understand myself and how I work, what life is and so on. As such, I rather like letting go of illusions generally, as much as practicable. This is the case regardless of whether it's helpful to me (as in increasing my happiness) as I crawl along the mortal coil. To me, the idea of saying "I probably have free will (to scratch my nose or whatever) because it feels like I do" is almost anathema to either a spirit of enquiry or a rigorous search for understanding, and as a result I can hardly even imagine myself saying it.

Others might prefer just to take their sense of free will at face value. That's ok and arguably pragmatic. We do have to get on with life in any case and will probably never be sure if we have free will or not, not least because even agreeing on a definition seems beyond us.

In an ideal discussion, imo, we would just leave aside the argument about what term to use and focus on trying to describe and understand the capacities we do have, whatever we might call them. That said, I do rather like calling them 'human agency' myself.
 
Last edited:
Calling other people's claims arbitrary, irrational, incoherent or lacking in reasoning is just having a cheap shot, imo,
Of course it's not if the claim is irrational, arbitrary or lacking in reasoned support (i.e. if it's a bad argument).

especially if you're not prepared to make a case for an alternative.
The validity of any argument I'm criticising is not dependent on my ability to come up with an alternative argument. A bad argument is a bad argument regardless.

You're clearly unhappy that I'm not willing to engage with you on the issues you're interested in. Tough. You butted in on my exchange with DBT.
 
the feeling of conscious agency in terms of making decisions - which has been shown to be an illusion created by the disconnect between conscious experience and its production mechanism, the brain.

That isn't even true.

For a start, it would be just impossible to prove that we don't have something like "conscious agency in terms of making decisions".

And specifically, there are zero scientific experiment proving we don't have the kind of free will we think we have.

All there is are experiments proving that what scientists think other people think of as free will doesn't exist.

Impressively pathetic.
EB


Your objection is merely a protest based on your own preferences. That the brain must necessarily process information before conscious representation is not only supported by evidence, based on the realities of physics, it cannot be otherwise.

You ignorance is expressed in your ever more desperate attacks upon anyone who dares to challenge your faith.

- - - Updated - - -

Calling other people's claims arbitrary, irrational, incoherent or lacking in reasoning is just having a cheap shot, imo, especially if you're not prepared to make a case for an alternative. The topic deserves better.

That's the way it usually goes. Sadly.
 
Back
Top Bottom