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They/Them She/Her He/Him - as you will

Rhea said:
Is it, though?
Is it astonishing, illogical, and false?

All through history, the use we have used most often is based on how someone presents because we are not privvy to their genitals.

So it is almost always about gender. The gender they present with.

Whatever "gender" means, the reasoning you are using here is mistaken.

Let me give you an example: suppose Arnold is a terminator - a robot covered in human tissue, and which looks human. Then, most people would classify it as a human. However, it would be a mistaken classification, because Arnold is not in fact a human, by the meaning of the word 'human' in English. The reason for the mistaken classification is that it is based on visual information that leads people to reasonably assess Arnold has further properties - i.e., beyond those that one can observe - which make it a human. But it does not. And if people were given further information about Arnold - e.g., that it's made of metal, has a processor for brain, etc. - they would correctly classify Arnold as not a human.
When you want to assess whether pronouns referred to a person's gender, sex or something else, you need to consider whether people with such and such sex or gender would have been referred to as 'she', 'he', etc., provided that the people using those words were privy to the relevant facts.
You know an argument is doomed when someone needs to use an example about a robot when talking about human beings. Why don't we bring up the example of a person that was born with one set of bits, but mentally have always felt they should have had the other set of bits?

Are we to deny recognizing them for who they feel they are because you came up with some "analogy" with a robot?
 
Rhea said:
Is it, though?
Is it astonishing, illogical, and false?

All through history, the use we have used most often is based on how someone presents because we are not privvy to their genitals.

So it is almost always about gender. The gender they present with.

Whatever "gender" means, the reasoning you are using here is mistaken.

Let me give you an example: suppose Arnold is a terminator - a robot covered in human tissue, and which looks human. Then, most people would classify it as a human. However, it would be a mistaken classification, because Arnold is not in fact a human, by the meaning of the word 'human' in English. The reason for the mistaken classification is that it is based on visual information that leads people to reasonably assess Arnold has further properties - i.e., beyond those that one can observe - which make it a human. But it does not. And if people were given further information about Arnold - e.g., that it's made of metal, has a processor for brain, etc. - they would correctly classify Arnold as not a human.
When you want to assess whether pronouns referred to a person's gender, sex or something else, you need to consider whether people with such and such sex or gender would have been referred to as 'she', 'he', etc., provided that the people using those words were privy to the relevant facts.
You know an argument is doomed when someone needs to use an example about a robot when talking about human beings. Why don't we bring up the example of a person that was born with one set of bits, but mentally have always felt they should have had the other set of bits?

Are we to deny recognizing them for who they feel they are because you came up with some "analogy" with a robot?
No, you do not know the argument is doomed. Because it was a good argument. It explained why Rhea's reasoning was improper.
 
Okay, so given the replies so far, I will make a bit of a longer argument:

I will argue that assessments that people are or are not women or men made by people like feminists usually insulted as 'TERF', or conservatives (or by the vast majority of the population, but I do not need that) are generally true, even if we assume for the sake of the argugments that similarly-looking claims made in a new variant of English are true as well. Terminology: I will call the assumed new variant 'W-English', and the other one 'T-English' (for "Woke" and "NW" respectively), but please pick your choice of terminology, as this is not relevant to my arguments.

So, first imagine there is a word in language Z speaking by a population, which is 'tutu', and means 'horse', in 1990. As time goes by, some speakers of Z change the way they use the word 'tutu', and now they mean 'car'. But some others do not change the way the speak. Some new community members adopt the new usage as well. But some others do not. By 2021, about 50% of the population uses 'tutu' to mean 'car', and the other 50% uses 'tutu' to mean 'horse'.

Suppose a person in the second group sees a horse, and she says that that's a 'tutu'. Surely, she did not say anything false, or mistaken. The meaning of the words is given by usage, but if there are two sizable chunks of the population using 'tutu' to mean very different things, that does not mean those using the word in one of the senses are making false statements, in the language Z. How big the chunks need to be it's a debatable matter, but I would for now say that if one usage has, say, 20% of the population, that's enough to make it a common usage, not a case of making false statements as a result of a mistake about the meaning of a word. Further, if the two groups fail to understand each other, then Z split into two dialects Z1 and Z2, and speakers of each are unaware about the meaning of the words in the other dialect.

Now back to English: there is no good reason to think that the people older than, say, 40, who say that a person who would say that transmen are not men or that transwomen are not women ever changed what they mean by 'man' or 'woman' from 1990 to 2021. In fact, there are very good reasons to think they have not changed the way they use those words: these words allow them to talk about the properties they care about just fine, whereas the proposed new terms do not (even assuming the latter are coherent). So, why would they change the way they speak? Some might say whatever the Woke wants them to say when coerced, but that does not suggest a change in usage when not coerced (or even when coerced, as they will likely see themselves as making false statements in NW-English, rather than true ones in W-English). And clearly those resisting are not giving up to the coercion. And similarly, many younger people also say the same things, and there is no good reason they're speaking W-English, rather than NW-English - which coincides with 1990 English on the meaning of 'man', 'woman', etc. On the contrary, the evidence shows they're not speaking in W-English, as their assessments of who is a man or a woman regularly match NW-English, and further they deny claims that would be trivially true in W-English (again, assuming for the sake of the argument the coherence of the latter).

That leads me to the following point: the statements above or similar ones are true - whether they are true has to be assessed in the language in which they are spoken, not in some other language or dialect.

The above has implications for accusations of 'misgendering', which are generally false. To see this, let us look at some dictionary definitions:


to identify the gender of (a person, such as a transsexual or transgender person) incorrectly (as by using an incorrect label or pronoun)

So, to misgender a person involves an incorrect identification. But that would involve making false statements, rather than true statements in 2021 NW-English. Here's another definition:




(transitive) To refer to (a person) using terms that express the wrong gender, either unknowingly or intentionally; for example, calling a woman "son" or a boy "she".

And again, no misgendering involved in true statements, which do not express the wrong gender because, whatever 'gender' means, the statements are true, so either they express the correct gender, or they do not express any gender whatsoever.




to refer to or address (a person, especially one who is transgender) with a pronoun, noun, or adjective that inaccurately represents the person's gender or gender identity: At first my teacher misgendered me.


That was seems harder to understand, as it involves 'gender identity' and pronouns. But still, this requires inaccurately representing a person's gender or gender identity, which true statements do not do.


Another one:




misgender somebody (as something) to refer to somebody in a way that does not represent the gender that they identify as


If we take that literally, to refer to someone as 'American' would be an instance of misgendering, since such labels do not represent any gender - whatever 'gender' means, it seems to me it's not that one!


But then, maybe the dictionary above means it's to refer to someone's gender in a way that contradicts with the gender they identify as?

If so, then a true statement of the form 'A is a woman' or 'A is a man' can only be an instance of misgendering A if A's gender self-identification is false. Why? Because true statements do not contradict true ones. What? Self-identification cannot be false? Okay, then a true statement of the form 'A is a woman' or 'A is a man', or a true statement in NW-English stating 'transmen are not men', etc., or any other true statement, can never be an instance of misgendering.

But I'm sure one can find more definitions, so pick your choice. I would still argue that it is improper to assess the accuracy of statements made in NW-English by the meaning of the words in W-English - even assuming there is a coherent meaning in the latter -, and that there is a sizable chunk of the population (I'd say the vast majority at least, but I do not need that hypothesis here) that uses the words 'man' and 'woman' to mean what they meant in, say, 1990, or for that matter 1970 (even if minuscule proportions of the population might have already used them differently in 1990 or even 1970).


What about pronouns?
Speakers of NW-English are using the correct pronouns in their language, namely NW-English. And they are using the correct pronoun. Maybe not the pronoun some people want to be called by, but the pronoun that matches the words that they are using in the language they are speaking.

Now, why would they want to speak in NW-English, and not replace it W-English? Are they evil people who want to harm trans people?

Save for weird cases (which might exists on either side), not remotely. What they want is to keep talking about the stuff they care about, in this case the properties of being a NW-woman or a NW-man. But that's another matter: the fact remains that people talking in NW-English are generally not making false claims in the situations as above, and not misgendering anyone, at least in any of the definitions of 'misgendering' above (if there is another definition that you think matches usage and you would like to discuss, please let me know).
 
If this is a joke, I freely confess I don't get it.

Admittedly it was.
Humor, as a defense mechanism, requires a speed-bump. A shift of POV. Usually a surprise, shocking change of outlook. You want something that makes someone say, "I never thought of that before" or "When you look at it THAT way..."

Some people protect their points of view with boilerplate. They are unable to countenance any other view or train of thought. They are not open to education, to correction, or to actual humor.
 
You know an argument is doomed when someone needs to use an example about a robot when talking about human beings. Why don't we bring up the example of a person that was born with one set of bits, but mentally have always felt they should have had the other set of bits?

Are we to deny recognizing them for who they feel they are because you came up with some "analogy" with a robot?
No, you do not know the argument is doomed. Because it was a good argument. It explained why Rhea's reasoning was improper.
It is a crap argument because it is imagining stuff instead of talking about actual transgender people. This type of person has always existed, and people are still struggling to come to grips with it, and addicted to labels. They are ignoring the human factors involved and nestling up with grammar as if it were some type of blankie.
 
You know an argument is doomed when someone needs to use an example about a robot when talking about human beings. Why don't we bring up the example of a person that was born with one set of bits, but mentally have always felt they should have had the other set of bits?

Are we to deny recognizing them for who they feel they are because you came up with some "analogy" with a robot?
No, you do not know the argument is doomed. Because it was a good argument. It explained why Rhea's reasoning was improper.
It a crap argument because it is imagining stuff instead of talking about actual transgender people. This type of person has always existed, and people are still struggling to come to grips with it, and addicted to labels. They are ignoring the human factors involved and nestling up with grammar as if it were some type of blankie.
It is not a crap argument because it is about the improper reasoning in Rhea's post. The argument highlights that the reasoning is improper, and that is improper regardless of anything related to any transgender people. No, I am not ignoring the human factors. Rhea's argument would remain improper no matter who is struggling with what.
 
So, no matter how wide or expansive a vat of sophistry, any such argument can be disproved through concise concrete example:

Furries: a category INVENTED through self-identification.

The purpose of categories is for the request of social treatment within publicly freely offered treatments.

No sophistry can change that, no matter how long-winded.

It is up to the older people to learn the new language if they wish to be relevant to the conversation.

The fact is that the older usage of language may be more inaccurate than the new one, sloppier in intent and more destructive in its effect.
 
If this is a joke, I freely confess I don't get it.

Admittedly it was.
Humor, as a defense mechanism, requires a speed-bump. A shift of POV. Usually a surprise, shocking change of outlook. You want something that makes someone say, "I never thought of that before" or "When you look at it THAT way..."

Some people protect their points of view with boilerplate. They are unable to countenance any other view or train of thought. They are not open to education, to correction, or to actual humor.
Except when they want to accuse you of being unable to look away from the awful things they say, to torture your mind so as to look right at something disgusting and laugh like you didn't even see it.

If you can't do that, you have no sense of humor.
 
You know an argument is doomed when someone needs to use an example about a robot when talking about human beings. Why don't we bring up the example of a person that was born with one set of bits, but mentally have always felt they should have had the other set of bits?

Are we to deny recognizing them for who they feel they are because you came up with some "analogy" with a robot?
No, you do not know the argument is doomed. Because it was a good argument. It explained why Rhea's reasoning was improper.
It a crap argument because it is imagining stuff instead of talking about actual transgender people. This type of person has always existed, and people are still struggling to come to grips with it, and addicted to labels. They are ignoring the human factors involved and nestling up with grammar as if it were some type of blankie.
It is not a crap argument because it is about the improper reasoning in Rhea's post. The argument highlights that the reasoning is improper, and that is improper regardless of anything related to any transgender people. No, I am not ignoring the human factors. Rhea's argument would remain improper no matter who is struggling with what.
You are mistaken. Your argument is based on a false premise - that the identification has to be correct.
 
Jarhyn said:
So, no matter how wide or expansive a vat of sophistry, any such argument can be disproved through concise concrete example:


Furries: a category INVENTED through self-identification.


The purpose of categories is for the request of social treatment within publicly freely offered treatments.


No sophistry can change that, no matter how long-winded.


It is up to the older people to learn the new language if they wish to be relevant to the conversation.


The fact is that the older usage of language may be more inaccurate than the new one, sloppier in intent and more destructive in its effect.
That does not even address my argument. Sure, people can coin new words. But regardless of the meaning of 'furry', people can use previous terms to classify people - regardless of whether they are furries. In other words, furries can still be American, men, or shorter than 2m. And those assessments can properly be made regardless of whether they are furry as well. People do not need to learn the new words in order to keep speaking using the old ones, and making true statements.


And this is all regardless of which language is more precise.
 
You know an argument is doomed when someone needs to use an example about a robot when talking about human beings. Why don't we bring up the example of a person that was born with one set of bits, but mentally have always felt they should have had the other set of bits?

Are we to deny recognizing them for who they feel they are because you came up with some "analogy" with a robot?
No, you do not know the argument is doomed. Because it was a good argument. It explained why Rhea's reasoning was improper.
It a crap argument because it is imagining stuff instead of talking about actual transgender people. This type of person has always existed, and people are still struggling to come to grips with it, and addicted to labels. They are ignoring the human factors involved and nestling up with grammar as if it were some type of blankie.
It is not a crap argument because it is about the improper reasoning in Rhea's post. The argument highlights that the reasoning is improper, and that is improper regardless of anything related to any transgender people. No, I am not ignoring the human factors. Rhea's argument would remain improper no matter who is struggling with what.
You are mistaken. Your argument is based on a false premise - that the identification has to be correct.
What identification are you talking about? But in any case, my argument contains no false premises. Also, in this part of the exchange, my argument shows that Rhea's reasoning is mistaken.
 
You know an argument is doomed when someone needs to use an example about a robot when talking about human beings. Why don't we bring up the example of a person that was born with one set of bits, but mentally have always felt they should have had the other set of bits?

Are we to deny recognizing them for who they feel they are because you came up with some "analogy" with a robot?
No, you do not know the argument is doomed. Because it was a good argument. It explained why Rhea's reasoning was improper.
It a crap argument because it is imagining stuff instead of talking about actual transgender people. This type of person has always existed, and people are still struggling to come to grips with it, and addicted to labels. They are ignoring the human factors involved and nestling up with grammar as if it were some type of blankie.
It is not a crap argument because it is about the improper reasoning in Rhea's post. The argument highlights that the reasoning is improper, and that is improper regardless of anything related to any transgender people. No, I am not ignoring the human factors. Rhea's argument would remain improper no matter who is struggling with what.
You are mistaken. Your argument is based on a false premise - that the identification has to be correct.
What identification are you talking about? But in any case, my argument contains no false premises. Also, in this part of the exchange, my argument shows that Rhea's reasoning is mistaken.
You are mistaken. Rhea's obvious point is that identification and use of pronouns is typically based on the visual external perception not actual knowledge of genitalia. The accuracy of the identification is irrelevant to her argument. Hence, your argument is irrelevant to her position.
 
What identification are you talking about? But in any case, my argument contains no false premises. Also, in this part of the exchange, my argument shows that Rhea's reasoning is mistaken.
Is it? My tomboy / firecracker daughter is mistaken for a boy at times (she doesn't like that), and it is based almost exclusively on her behavior, very energetic and not quiet / refined. Heck, she's been decked out in pink and a skirt and gets called a boy!

In one case at the zoo, we got to the lions and she was roaring and bouncy. The guy next to her says to their own smaller child, 'look at that boy...' She replied, "I'm a girl". The father was taken aback, "But you were roaring..." His entire estimation of my daughter's gender was based on her behavior.
 
All through history, the use we have used most often is based on how someone presents because we are not privvy to their genitals.

This is misleading. It repeats the falsehood that the only way to distinguish between a male and a female human is through genital inspection. And that's simply untrue. Secondary and tertiary sex characteristics are pretty goddamned obvious, almost all the time. If a person puts a huge amount of effort into hiding or masking those characteristics, they can trick people into being uncertain or into thinking they're the opposite sex.

But seriously, all through history "if it has facial hair it's a man and if it has boobies it's a woman" is a pretty fucking easy indicator, and is 99.8% of the time perfectly accurate.

The term "gender" had nothing to do with presentation or sex at all until the late 15th century. Prior to that it literally just meant "class" or "group". It's the root in the word "genus". In the 15th c. the term "sex" took on an erotic quality as it began to be used as a verb denoting intercourse. That's when "gender" first began being used as a replacement for sex in polite company, to avoid the potential "dirtiness" of "sex".

It didn't start being used in the social stereotype sense until the late 1960s, and it didn't gain even remote popularity until the 1980s, when we got "gender-bender" in use referring to people who intentionally and unapologetically broke those social conventions - David Bowie, Annie Lenox, Grace Jones, and a host of hair bands.

Even then, it was NOT discrete from sex, it was still intimately joined with sex. It wasn't until the 2000s that people started trying to make it a completely separate element from sex, and built it out as an "identity" that is somehow innate and distinct from sex. Now it's being used not just as separate from sex, but as a DENIAL of sex. It gets used to override sex, and to attribute some mystical "gendered soul" to a person that subsumes and transforms their mere physical bodies.

The current-day use of the word "gender" doesn't even have anything to do with dysphoria. Dysphoria is a mental disconnect between one's perception of oneself and one's sexed body. It's a variation of body dysmorphia, just more encompassing, but tied to a very specific trait. Additionally, dysphoria can be a primary condition, or it can be a secondary symptom of a different condition (this is a large part of why it was reclassified as not being a disorder, because it's often a symptom of something else altogether).

Online we have to take people at their word with respect to their sex. We have no real way to know for sure. In real life, however, it is sophomorically easy to distinguish an adult male from an adult female - unless they have taken pains to medically and surgically alter their appearance in order to disguise their sex. Without those intentional interventions, even little children get it right 99% of the time. A person's sex is not some hidden characteristic only accessible if they're naked. It's written on our faces, on our shapes, in our stride. Obvious indicators of sex are an evolutionary development, and an evolutionary benefit. Pretending that they don't exist, or that they're really difficult to interpret is... well... it's ideology. It's not science and it's not reality.
 
BTW, your baby example is incredibly dumb. Most people when they encounter a baby, use a pronoun based on their perception of the baby's sex (i.e. the gender), not because they have viewed baby genitalia.
Pre-pubertal children don't have strong sex-differentiation. Some exist, but they're relatively small.

Once puberty begins, however, the differences between males and females of the human species are pretty obvious, even when they're fully clothed.
 
All through history, the use we have used most often is based on how someone presents because we are not privvy to their genitals.

This is misleading. It repeats the falsehood that the only way to distinguish between a male and a female human is through genital inspection. And that's simply untrue. Secondary and tertiary sex characteristics are pretty goddamned obvious, almost all the time. If a person puts a huge amount of effort into hiding or masking those characteristics, they can trick people into being uncertain or into thinking they're the opposite sex.

But seriously, all through history "if it has facial hair it's a man and if it has boobies it's a woman" is a pretty fucking easy indicator, and is 99.8% of the time perfectly accurate.
Except when someone wishes to look like a member of the opposite sex. And, it does not allows take a huge amount of effort.

But nothing you wrote dispels the basic notion that pronoun use is most often based on perception not actual body identification.
 
One cannot say that it is erroneous to call a terminator "human" in a particular intent of "human". I much prefer the term "person", because "human" can conflate in the weak and small mind with 'homo sapiens sapiens' and be used as a cudgel against persons who are not, in fact, 'homo sapiens'.

This is... well... stupendously dumb. Human *IS* homo sapiens sapiens. An object that is not homo sapiens sapiens CANNOT BE human. Wolf *IS* canis lupus. If it isn't canis lupus, it isn't wolf.

One can take poetic license and describe something metaphorically as a "wolf", implying that the thing has "wolf-like qualities". Just as one can describe something as "human" to euphemistically imply that it has human-like qualities. But in neither of those cases does the metaphorical description in any way imply that those things are ACTUALLY LITERALLY wolves or humans.
 
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You know an argument is doomed when someone needs to use an example about a robot when talking about human beings. Why don't we bring up the example of a person that was born with one set of bits, but mentally have always felt they should have had the other set of bits?

Are we to deny recognizing them for who they feel they are because you came up with some "analogy" with a robot?

If someone mentally has always felt that they are a bulldog, should we all agree that they are in reality an actual for realsies bulldog, and put them on a leash and let them poop in public?

How a person feels they *ought to have been* does not, and should not, obligate other people to adopt their beliefs about themselves. That way lies madness.

We can, however, recognize people with genuine and severe mental health conditions that cannot be treated in any traditional way, and we can make reasonable accommodations for them. We can also, by the way, pretty much take the position of "fuck gender" all the way to it's limit and let people dress, act, and present however they like BECAUSE NOBODY SHOULD BE LOCKED IN TO A STUPID GODDAMNED SEX-BASED STEREOTYPE.
 
It is a crap argument because it is imagining stuff instead of talking about actual transgender people. This type of person has always existed, and people are still struggling to come to grips with it, and addicted to labels. They are ignoring the human factors involved and nestling up with grammar as if it were some type of blankie.
I disagree with the sentiment of your post.

Yes, people with gender dysphoria have always existed. But for the most part, nobody has trouble coming to grips with people who have extreme dysphoria. They've been around for pretty much all of recorded history. They've mostly been males who strongly and persistently identify as female, and there is likely a gestational trigger or a genetic component to that occurrence.

And they have, in the majority of human history, been accommodated and incorporated into society. Women have, by and large, accepted them as provisional women in *most* situations, although there have always been some situations that were specifically related to the biology of being female that they were excluded from.

What people are not on-board with is extending the entire concept to include self-declaration with no history and no reasonable definition of "transgender", whereby it can apply to anyone for any reason whatsoever. What people are not on-board with is extending it to include people who identify as non-human, or as no-sex, or as fictional animal characters, or as mythical beings... and who wish to be accommodated as such. What people often object to is the demand that everyone else pretend that this internal view of themselves is more important than, and should replace the reality of, sex... and should grant immediate and unquestioned access to sex-exclusive space or to services where sex is material and relevant.
 
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