"This viral comic about working motherhood is so true"

[laughing dog]

It doesn't matter why they chose what they chose.

Of course it matters why people make choices. Perhaps you mean it doesn't matter to you which is a different statement.

I
It was their own free choice and preference. To then complain about what they chose as if it's unfairly put upon them or somehow unjust and uneven is daft. They had the choice for it or against it at numerous steps along their way to it.

Yet another straw man. You are the one complaining about their choices, not me. Are you saying you are daft? Or was that yet another straw man you chose to attribute to me?

People are going to choose to have children. That is the reality. And those choices are not always based on rational decision-making nor with perfect foresight or knowledge about the future or their partner's behavior or their household situations or the effects of social expectations in the work place.
Choices do not occur in a social vacuum. To use the "choice" argument to dismiss the realities of social structures is the equivalent of putting one's head in the sand.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Who is dishing out strawmen now? All I wrote is that they made this choice for themselves. I didn't judge that choice as good or bad. Nor did I write any of the rest of whatever it is you are spewing your verbal diarrhea over.

 

[ruby sparks]

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwW0X9f0mME[/YOUTUBE]

 

[ruby sparks]

It was their own free choice and preference. To then complain about what they chose as if it's unfairly put upon them or somehow unjust and uneven is daft.

It may generally be a choice to have children, though it's mostly a shared choice, so it's not just the woman's choice. What hasn't usually been chosen is women only finding out after the arrival of the agreed-upon children that most men don't then do their fair share of the work in the home for the next approximately (just under) 20 years. What's happened is that most working mothers have been shafted, to varying degrees, by the double burden, for almost two decades of their lives.

The good news is that the situation has been slowly improving. I read that among millennials, this gender pattern is starting to break up, because the young women are less willing to put up with it and the young men are more willing to do more about it.

The cartoon is apt and makes a good point, and well done to Anand Mahindra for tweeting it and acknowledging the issue, albeit belatedly in his case (he's basically a version of the dad in that advert above).

"I’ve been helping to baby-sit my year old grandson this past week & it’s brought home to me the stark reality of this image. I salute every working woman & acknowledge that their successes have required a much greater amount of effort than their male counterparts."
(Anand Mahindra)

Many men will not realise this applies to them. Studies show that men tend to overestimate their domestic contribution. In my own case, I certainly did this.

 

[Arctish]

False dichotomy. Nobody is forcing you to have and raise kids. Nobody is forcing you to be caregiver of them and preventing your husband from doing so if you do decide to have a husband and kids. These are all choices. If you want to do like these guys and not have kids or not be the one raising them, that's also a choice you are free to make. House husnands exist and so do nannies and so do childless women.

What makes you think the guys in the cartoon don't have kids?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

False dichotomy. Nobody is forcing you to have and raise kids. Nobody is forcing you to be caregiver of them and preventing your husband from doing so if you do decide to have a husband and kids. These are all choices. If you want to do like these guys and not have kids or not be the one raising them, that's also a choice you are free to make. House husnands exist and so do nannies and so do childless women.

What makes you think the guys in the cartoon don't have kids?

I said not have kids or be the ones raising them. These men who are not raising kids may be either. Other men actually do take on the duties of raising kids.

 

[Politesse]

So have many. Contraception is also a thing, as abortion and adoption. Come join the modern west where women have all these choices.

So your solution for the artist, for instance, is for the entire female population of Peru to pick up and move to a somewhat fictionalized version of Canada? Rather than, through art, trying to influence the problem she sees in her society?

 

[ruby sparks]

False dichotomy. Nobody is forcing you to have and raise kids. Nobody is forcing you to be caregiver of them and preventing your husband from doing so if you do decide to have a husband and kids. These are all choices. If you want to do like these guys and not have kids or not be the one raising them, that's also a choice you are free to make. House husnands exist and so do nannies and so do childless women.

What makes you think the guys in the cartoon don't have kids?

I said not have kids or be the ones raising them. These men who are not raising kids may be either. Other men actually do take on the duties of raising kids.

Right. Because it’s women’s choice when men generally don’t do their fair share. And the existence of some men who do is relevant because.........it’s most women’s fault for having kids with men who as it turns out aren’t willing to be one of those?

Oh you genuine gender egalitarian you.

 

[Arctish]

False dichotomy. Nobody is forcing you to have and raise kids. Nobody is forcing you to be caregiver of them and preventing your husband from doing so if you do decide to have a husband and kids. These are all choices. If you want to do like these guys and not have kids or not be the one raising them, that's also a choice you are free to make. House husnands exist and so do nannies and so do childless women.

What makes you think the guys in the cartoon don't have kids?

I said not have kids or be the ones raising them. These men who are not raising kids may be either. Other men actually do take on the duties of raising kids.

So you think they're either childless or they just ignore their kids? That race is Married Women and Moms vs. Bachelors and Absent Fathers?

 

[ruby sparks]

So have many. Contraception is also a thing, as abortion and adoption. Come join the modern west where women have all these choices.

So your solution for the artist, for instance, is for the entire female population of Peru to pick up and move to a somewhat fictionalized version of Canada? Rather than, through art, trying to influence the problem she sees in her society?

His solution is ‘women should stop complaining because it’s their own fault’.

It’s times like this that we can see that Jolly’s underlying objections don’t inherently or actually in the final analysis only have to do with, for example, Chanty Binx’s abrasive approach, but extend to ‘women just speaking up’.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I said not have kids or be the ones raising them. These men who are not raising kids may be either. Other men actually do take on the duties of raising kids.

So you think they're either childless or they just ignore their kids? That race is Married Women and Moms vs. Bachelors and Absent Fathers?

Given that they put the childcare hurdles only in front of the women in the cartoon, yes pretty much, that's who she is comparing them to. And again, this is their choice. There is nothing wrong with a woman choosing the opposite, and either not having/raising kids or finding a husband who will raise the kids. The "this choice I have made is unfair to me" line of thought is daft.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

People are going to choose to have children. That is the reality. And those choices are not always based on rational decision-making

So what? It's still a choice they made. If they now regret it, ok. But their choice still has consequences. Same with pretty much any other choice you freely make. You want to have kids? You'll need to find a way to raise them. Nannies, house husband's, not having them in the first place, abortion, adoption are all options.

Don't have kids if you aren't prepared to care for them or to arrange for their care. Kids are a life long obligation. Treat it as such before having a kid. Not thinking it through isn't an excuse for you to resent the needs of a child you brought into world.

 

[laughing dog]

Who is dishing out strawmen now? All I wrote is that they made this choice for themselves. I didn't judge that choice as good or bad.

I didn't say you did. You continually choose to post straw man.

Nor did I write any of the rest of whatever it is you are spewing your verbal diarrhea over.

Another straw man. I never said you did. Apparently, you have a real problem with reading comprehension

Your facile and stupid response of "It's their choice" ignores the realities of the world.

 

[laughing dog]

People are going to choose to have children. That is the reality. And those choices are not always based on rational decision-making

So what? It's still a choice they made. If they now regret it, ok. But their choice still has consequences. Same with pretty much any other choice you freely make. You want to have kids? You'll need to find a way to raise them. Nannies, house husband's, not having them in the first place, abortion, adoption are all options.

Don't have kids if you aren't prepared to care for them or to arrange for their care. Kids are a life long obligation. Treat it as such before having a kid. Not thinking it through isn't an excuse for you to resent the needs of a child you brought into world.

The OP is about not resentment, it is about the hurdles placed in front of women who work and raise children. It is about women trying to improve their situation and to be treated fairly. Now when women sex workers in countries where prostitution is illegal, you don't wave your hands with "So what, it's their choice". But in this situation you do. I wonder what the difference is. Hmmm.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Who is dishing out strawmen now? All I wrote is that they made this choice for themselves. I didn't judge that choice as good or bad.

I didn't say you did. You continually choose to post straw man.

Nor did I write any of the rest of whatever it is you are spewing your verbal diarrhea over.

Another straw man. I never said you did. Apparently, you have a real problem with reading comprehension

Your facile and stupid response of "It's their choice" ignores the realities of the world.

So... You attack me with shit that you aren't seriously asking me about or accusing me of? Ok then. Go back to your corner. I guess I have to just put you back on ignore since you aren't capable of civil conversation....

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

The OP is about not resentment, it is about the hurdles placed in front of women who work and raise children. It is about women trying to improve their situation and to be treated fairly.

You mean hurdles they create for themselves. Nothing unfair about it.

Now when women sex workers in countries where prostitution is illegal, you don't wave your hands with "So what, it's their choice". But in this situation you do. I wonder what the difference is. Hmmm.

Actual laws against them perhaps? You're not too bright eh? Ok make your final lame snarky personal attack and then forget me because I will have you back on ignore where you belong.

 

[laughing dog]

The OP is about not resentment, it is about the hurdles placed in front of women who work and raise children. It is about women trying to improve their situation and to be treated fairly.

You mean hurdles they create for themselves. Nothing unfair about it.

There are hurdles created by social conventions.

Actual laws against them perhaps?

Prostitutes choose their profession and they know it is illegal. They choose to remain where it is illegal instead of moving to where it is legal. The principle of choice is the same in both instances. Yet your progressive liberal response is radically different. With child-bearing women who work, it is to hold them responsible for their choices instead of advocating or even understanding the restrictions on their choices. With prostitutes who ply their trade where prostitution is illegal, your response is to work to get rid of the restrictions instead of holding them responsible for their choices.

I certainly can understand why you would not willing to face your glaring double standard.

 

[Toni]

False dichotomy. Nobody is forcing you to have and raise kids. Nobody is forcing you to be caregiver of them and preventing your husband from doing so if you do decide to have a husband and kids.

Maybe in Canada and other utopias, human animals are in complete control of their biological imperative to reproduce, but that is not true in the rest of planet earth.

I've managed to not reproduce for decades.

I am grateful for your success in your struggle.

 

[Toni]

So men never do any household tasks? Even in traditional households, there is the dreaded "honey-do" list. And are all women are mothers and men never do any child care tasks? Come-on!

The whole thing is incredibly stereotypical and that is only tolerated because it's stereotyping in a politically correct way, to further the myth that women have it so hard.

On average men do much more childcare and household chores compared with previous generations but studies still show that women bear the greater burden of child care and household chores as well as caregiving for other family members as needed even when also holding down full time paid jobs.

Of course there are men who are the primary care givers and manage households. There aren’t enough of them and they face a lot of social stigma as well as economic harm. Women face social stigma whether they are stay st home mother’s or work for pay full time or whatever mixture of caregiving and paid work they choose. I’m pretty much convinced that society hates children, there is such a societal penalty for having them.

 

[Toni]

People are going to choose to have children. That is the reality. And those choices are not always based on rational decision-making

So what? It's still a choice they made. If they now regret it, ok. But their choice still has consequences. Same with pretty much any other choice you freely make. You want to have kids? You'll need to find a way to raise them. Nannies, house husband's, not having them in the first place, abortion, adoption are all options.

Don't have kids if you aren't prepared to care for them or to arrange for their care. Kids are a life long obligation. Treat it as such before having a kid. Not thinking it through isn't an excuse for you to resent the needs of a child you brought into world.

I don’t remember you having the same attitudes about men who become parents.