This week in feminism: The Hottest Thing a Man Can Do Is Not Be a Jerk About Astrology

[J842P]

Guys, the issue isn't whether astrology is or is not to be taken seriously. It's about whether or not men should respect women who have interests that the men do not share or even find foolish.

It is about whether or not men are wise to judge women for believing or pursuing an interest in something that they themselves do not believe and are not interested in.

If you think that the devotion of some women to discussions about astrology is absurd and beyond the pale, please consider the on radio discussions of play by play Packers games by Packers fans. Or whatever your particular sport of interest is. Most women who are not similarly inclined to follow the Packers (and many, many ARE inclined to follow the Packers) do not enter into conversations with men to deride the male Packers' fans obsession. A few will but not smart ones. They make talk amongst themselves or amongst fellow non-devotees of the Packers about how stupid and obsessed Packers fans are but they don't do it at the dinner table with their Packers fan partner. Even I can feign interest in football (American or classic) and baseball and hockey. Surely you are all at least as smart as I am.

I think most sports are boring, even though it is stereotypically a male interest. I think knitting isn't particularly interesting, even though it is stereotypically female interest. Neither is particularly stupid. Astrology is profoundly stupid.

Again, it's not whether or not YOU think astrology is stupid. It's about women finding attractive men who respect them enough to allow them their own interests, even if he thinks it's stupid. Because if you think women don't let men have their own stupid interests without ridiculing them for it, you're extremely naive.

No, you don't understand. Astrology isn't just a silly interest. It is profoundly stupid. Like believing in Santa Claus. If a grown man believed in Santa Claus, that would be stupid. And that wouldn't be deserving of respect. I don't find sports particlarly engaging, so I understand men stereotypically have interests that are silly. And actually, I know I have interests that many women find silly or stupid - they tell me Toni. But that is not the same as believing in the Tooth Fairy. I'm sorry.

 

[barbos]

It has always kind of amused me how women seem to be OK with men pretending to be interested in the things they like, even though they know its not really sincere. For example, wives fishing for compliments from their husbands about the new dress she bought, despite knowing her husband doesn't really give a shit about fashion or some random dress. And out of respect, the husband will say, "Yeah, really looks great honey!", so he can move on and go about his day. And she will gush and blush and say, "Oooooo thank you, thank you!! You are such a sweetheart! . Just for that compliment, you will be getting something extra special tonight!" And the guy walks away saying, "happy wife, happy life". it's just always seemed weird to me.

The funniest one I ever heard was a guy who's girlfriend was becoming unhappy that he wasn't sending enough sappy text messages to her during the day. The guy was in IT and was generally constantly busy and under pressure, so couldn't really take the time to do it. So, he made some bot app for his phone that would automatically and at random times during the day, send one of about a hundred prewritten canned messages to her like, "Thinking of you, sweetiepie" or "Can't wait to come home and hold you in my arms". She would then respond back to the texting bot with her own sappy or flirty reply. Finally, after a couple of weeks of this, she caught on somehow, and initially got really angry with him, but then later cooled off, forgave him and asked him to continue with the texting bot, as it still made her feel good regardless even knowing it wasn't coming from his own head and hands.

My thoughts exactly. I think women in particular don't realize how different male and female brains are.

 

[barbos]

No more so than anyone obsessing over every play by the Packers.

No, obsessing over some sports team doesn't require profound stupidity. It is nowhere near the same level.

I dated a girl who was in to ice dancing, watched all the championships. I had no problem watching these things with her or talking to her about this, even though I'm wasn't particularly interested in ice dancing. That would be comparable, although, I actually agree with you that football is harmful so really much worse in that sense. But believing in astrology is akin to believing in the tooth fairy or Santa Claus as an adult. It signals profound stupidity. It isn't a mere interest in some activity. In fact, I am amazed you feel you need to defend it. I have found there are plenty of women who aren't morons, so I see no reason to respect something so stupid to "get dates".

I know a female PhD (biology) who displayed some interest in astrology. She is not stupid. So there is something about women and that crap.
And I like figure skating. I am not obsessed with it, but I will watch it occasionally, especially if it's top skaters.

 

[Metaphor]

I know when I was a kid, I tortured and killed small animals,

This explains a lot.

Wait, I’m still stuck on this little tid bit. Isn’t this a precursor to becoming a serial killer?

Evidently, my sarcasm calibration is off. I'd thought I'd measured my level at 'unmistakeably screaming'.

I did not torture or kill animals as a child or ever. I was mocking the ludicrous insinuation in the article that men who mock astrology may also be or become serial killers.

 

[Metaphor]

I wish I could say that I’m surprised that (some) men do not understand the difference between not sharing an interest in astrology (or knitting or gardening or (fill in the blank) and ridiculing women who are interested, but I can’t.

Anyone who is interested in astrology deserves ridicule. Man or woman.

No more so than anyone obsessing over every play by the Packers.

No. Obsessing with a sport or a show or a celebrity or any similar thing is not the same as believing in astrology. Those interests do not involve bizarre metaphysical beliefs.

 

[Metaphor]

On the subject of astrology...

It's destructive to a relationship to dig too deeply over something that doesn't matter. It's looking for a fight.

Maybe she is wrong thinking about the extremeness of his actions as worse than they are, but it's still shitty. People need magic, To occasionally do things scandalous and illegal, to enjoy belief in nonsense.

The point is, they harm nobody in going about in this way. It adds spice and flavor to the rhythm of their existence.

As an honest wizard, my advice for listening to the stars is different from what you would hear from an astrologer insofar as I say ditch the little scrolls, find where you can pick up some postage, go on a trip, and actually try counting the Pleiades, put your eyes on Orion, see if you can locate the north star*, and then look between the stars at... Well, you'll see it if you actually take my advice.

Sounds like Metaphor has been reading Breitbart or whatever and not been out actually living life.

*Southern cross, Perhaps?

Jarhyn is attempting a 'where's the harm' argument, which I'm almost sympathetic with, but not quite.

One in five C-section births in India occur on a date chosen by an astrologer. That is madness. That is not a no-harm outcome.

 

[ruby sparks]

That struck me as rather odd too. Is Toni claiming that women prefer to be patronized by men rather than men having an honest conversation with them?

I took it that some women ridicule mens' similarly irrational beliefs behind their back. I'm thinking of writing an article about it. The article may touch on aspects of toxic femininity.

 

[ruby sparks]

Went through the whole thread trying to figure out what this ridiculous article had to do with feminism.

The article cites sexism, misogyny and toxic masculinity. I think it's reasonable to assume there's a broadly feminist component.

 

[ruby sparks]

Ok, so let's look at the article is a more positive light.

Most of the scenarios in the article seem to relate to a first date and the sub-heading of the article is "Hating astrology is a typical straight-guy schtick, but it may be hurting your dating life".

Yes, I'd agree that if, on a first date, when you tell your date that you believe in astrology, they ridicule you or say that they hate astrology, that could be a sign that you've met a not very suitable person to have a relationship with, because it's arguably a bit rude and intolerant and possibly indicative of the sort of toxicity that the article mentions, and would probably be likewise about almost anything you say you're into. So in a way, the article could almost be about anything, or at least many things, disliking any of which has nothing to do with sexism, misogyny or toxicity of itself. But, in this case, the writer is a believer in astrology, and is asking for it not to be dismissed out of hand.

 

[ruby sparks]

Personally, if I was attracted to an astrology-believing date (including the writer, who is quite hot, I googled), I would politely set my dislike of astrology aside until after we'd (hopefully) had a great time in bed back at my place. Then, in the morning, I would politely explain, over a breakfast that I would be willing to make, and without mentioning astrology, that I do not think we would be suitable relationship material for each other, thank her for the lovely encounter, and continue my search for someone to have an ongoing relationship with who is not into woo. Then I would tell my mates about this woo-head I'd met who was a great f**k. That's how much of a gentleman I am.

 

[zorq]

No, you don't understand. Astrology isn't just a silly interest. It is profoundly stupid. Like believing in Santa Claus. If a grown man believed in Santa Claus, that would be stupid. And that wouldn't be deserving of respect. I don't find sports particlarly engaging, so I understand men stereotypically have interests that are silly. And actually, I know I have interests that many women find silly or stupid - they tell me Toni. But that is not the same as believing in the Tooth Fairy. I'm sorry.

Personally, I think it is rude to call Astrology "stupid." That both underestimates it's insidiously subtle characteristics and insults it's practitioners, who are for the most part, just typical humans.

Astrology encourages magical thinking, but there is no wish fulfillment in Astrology the way there is in other magical fascinations like religion. And the last time I checked, out of 7.8 billion people on the planet, 6.7 billion are religious. I have a lot of tolerance for religious people and I see no reason to not extend that tolerance to Astrology enthusiasts. Furthermore, it is a little disingenuous to compare Astrology to Santa and Tooth Fairy belief. Astrology makes no promises and can't be verified by simple experimentation. When the Tooth Fairy fails to exchange a tooth, kids notice and tell each other at school. Tooth Fairy belief is damaged or nullified almost instantly. When Astrology tells you to be open to making new friends on Tuesday, but you don't make a new friend, it doesn't actually impeach Astrology. Disproving Astrology is far more difficult than disproving Santa, it is even more difficult than disproving most religions.

Like it or not, (I choose Not) Magical thinking is a major aspect of normal human life for nearly all humans throughout history and is still a significant aspect to 85% of humans today. That doesn't mean these people deserve insults.

 

[ruby sparks]

Personally, I think it is rude to call Astrology "stupid." That both underestimates it's insidiously subtle characteristics and insults it's practitioners, who are for the most part, just typical humans.

Astrology encourages magical thinking, but there is no wish fulfillment in Astrology the way there is in other magical fascinations like religion. And the last time I checked, out of 7.8 billion people on the planet, 6.7 billion are religious. I have a lot of tolerance for religious people and I see no reason to not extend that tolerance to Astrology enthusiasts. Furthermore, it is a little disingenuous to compare Astrology to Santa and Tooth Fairy belief. Astrology makes no promises and can't be verified by simple experimentation. When the Tooth Fairy fails to exchange a tooth, kids notice and tell each other at school. Tooth Fairy belief is damaged or nullified almost instantly. When Astrology tells you to be open to making new friends on Tuesday, but you don't make a new friend, it doesn't actually impeach Astrology. Disproving Astrology is far more difficult than disproving Santa, it is even more difficult than disproving most religions.

Like it or not, (I choose Not) Magical thinking is a major aspect of normal human life for nearly all humans throughout history and is still a significant aspect to 85% of humans today. That doesn't mean these people deserve insults.

I do think much astrology does make promises (let's call them predictions) so I think the comparison with santa and tooth fairies, and at least some religious beliefs (praying, the world ending, etc), holds up quite well in some ways. Most astrologists are smart enough to realise that if they keep their predictions sufficiently vague, it makes it harder to refute them, and in any case, some other explanation for the failure can be given which does not invalidate astrology.

But I do agree with you about being tolerant, and about not being insulting about such things.

And, if a date says something you hold dear is stupid, whatever it is, then that date may well be intolerant in the ways the article describes. And if the thing you hold dear is currently seen as typically feminine and you are a woman, then your male date may be a bit toxically masculine, or they may not. I'm not sure you could tell from just that.

 

[ruby sparks]

This is the writer of the article.

Just to add to what I said earlier, if she's my date, then I'm taking her beliefs in astrology seriously. I literally, actually am.

Imagined conversation:

Her: 'What's your birthday?'
Me: 'April 27th, why'?
Her: 'A Taurus.'
Me: 'Yes, and you?'

This is not dating rocket science, guys.

 

[Metaphor]

View attachment 29506

This is the writer of the article.

Just to add to what I said earlier, if she's my date, then I'm taking her beliefs in astrology seriously. I literally, actually am.

Imagined conversation:

Her: 'What's your birthday?'
Me: 'April 27th, why'?
Her: 'A Taurus.'
Me: 'Yes, and you?'

This is not dating rocket science, guys.

You're not taking it seriously. You are pretending to.

 

[Trausti]

View attachment 29506

This is the writer of the article.

Just to add to what I said earlier, if she's my date, then I'm taking her beliefs in astrology seriously. I literally, actually am.

Imagined conversation:

Her: 'What's your birthday?'
Me: 'April 27th, why'?
Her: 'A Taurus.'
Me: 'Yes, and you?'

This is not dating rocket science, guys.

You're not taking it seriously. You are pretending to.

Men will pretend to believe any silly thing if it leads to easy non-committal sex.

 

[ZiprHead]

I know when I was a kid, I tortured and killed small animals,

This explains a lot.

Wait, I’m still stuck on this little tid bit. Isn’t this a precursor to becoming a serial killer?

It is noteworthy that early onset of animal cruelty acts is suggested to be predictive of subsequent violent or antisocial behavior.

Childhood and adolescent animal cruelty and subsequent interpersonal violence in adulthood: A review of the literature

 

[thebeave]

Wait, I’m still stuck on this little tid bit. Isn’t this a precursor to becoming a serial killer?

It is noteworthy that early onset of animal cruelty acts is suggested to be predictive of subsequent violent or antisocial behavior.

Childhood and adolescent animal cruelty and subsequent interpersonal violence in adulthood: A review of the literature

He already admitted his animal cruelty comment was sarcasm, even though it should not have been necessary. Its no wonder ya'll keep thinking Babylon Bee is a real news source.

 

[ZiprHead]

Childhood and adolescent animal cruelty and subsequent interpersonal violence in adulthood: A review of the literature

He already admitted his animal cruelty comment was sarcasm, even though it should not have been necessary. Its no wonder ya'll keep thinking Babylon Bee is a real news source.

Was it really sarcasm though? Or was saying it was sarcasm a desperate attempt to walk it back?

 

[Toni]

View attachment 29506

This is the writer of the article.

Just to add to what I said earlier, if she's my date, then I'm taking her beliefs in astrology seriously. I literally, actually am.

Imagined conversation:

Her: 'What's your birthday?'
Me: 'April 27th, why'?
Her: 'A Taurus.'
Me: 'Yes, and you?'

This is not dating rocket science, guys.

Exactly. There is the self interest part (see ruby sparks above) and then there's just human kindness. If you feel that you must discount another person because they hold some irrational belief that you don't share, then it seems to me that speaks of arrogance and ignorance. We all hold irrational beliefs that others do not.

 

[Toni]

Childhood and adolescent animal cruelty and subsequent interpersonal violence in adulthood: A review of the literature

He already admitted his animal cruelty comment was sarcasm, even though it should not have been necessary. Its no wonder ya'll keep thinking Babylon Bee is a real news source.

Metaphor is the one who tends to use some pretty sketchy sources. Which I sometimes point out.

The fact that at least one poster here took Metaphor's fake confession about animal torture seriously maybe says something about Metaphor's posts.

I will make one last attempt to try to convince male posters:

This thread is not about whether or not astrology is real and should be taken seriously. It's about whether not taking women seriously will earn you the respect, affection or place in bed with a woman. Hint: It doesn't. Unless you're talking about someone with such terrible self esteem that she's willing to have sex with someone who thinks she's stupid. And that, my friends, says more about you than it does about her.