This week in patriarchy: Ukraine expels women and children so men can have combat to themselves

[Metaphor]

The older one becomes, the more shades of gray one can discern. I wish I were a good enough person to 100% embrace non-violence as the only solution. I do, in theory. But I also know that sometimes, evil must be stopped before all is destroyed.

How does being opposed to the draft mean you are opposed to a country defending itself?

 

[Toni]

The older one becomes, the more shades of gray one can discern. I wish I were a good enough person to 100% embrace non-violence as the only solution. I do, in theory. But I also know that sometimes, evil must be stopped before all is destroyed.

How does being opposed to the draft mean you are opposed to a country defending itself?

I am not understanding your question.

 

[Metaphor]

The older one becomes, the more shades of gray one can discern. I wish I were a good enough person to 100% embrace non-violence as the only solution. I do, in theory. But I also know that sometimes, evil must be stopped before all is destroyed.

How does being opposed to the draft mean you are opposed to a country defending itself?

I am not understanding your question.

You said:

I wish I were a good enough person to 100% embrace non-violence as the only solution.

I disagree that defending your country against violence with violence makes you a less good person than being a pacifist.

Or did you mean "I wish I did not have to endorse the draft" (which is State violence against its own citizens) as the "only solution"?

 

[Toni]

There are times when I truly am uncertain when Metaphor is using sarcasm or irony or satire.

And tell me, when you read the title of the thread, did you believe I meant that as a literal claim?

When you read the third sentence of the OP, did you think I meant that as a literal claim?

Re: Title. No, I took it as an exaggeration, as hyperbole.

Re: Third sentence: obviously an attempt at light hearted humor with an edge.

I wasn’t referring specifically to this thread when I wrote that sometimes I cannot tell when you are using sarcasm/irony/satire. Sometimes I think that is the bass of some misunderstandings between us. I think you also do not get my attempts at humor/sarcasm/irony/satire. I’m not referring to disagreements —I think it is pretty clear that you and I will always have disagreements.

I think that you and I also have misunderstandings. Some of those may be unavoidable as we don’t actually ‘know’ each other, so we don’t always assume the best of each other. And I think that some of the misunderstanding is that we rely on the internet, with no opportunity for non-verbal communication. No tone of voice, no facial expression, no body language. You can’t look at me and see I am having a bad day because I didn’t sleep well or whatever. I can’t see stress on your face because you have a bunch of deadlines.

 

[Toni]

The older one becomes, the more shades of gray one can discern. I wish I were a good enough person to 100% embrace non-violence as the only solution. I do, in theory. But I also know that sometimes, evil must be stopped before all is destroyed.

How does being opposed to the draft mean you are opposed to a country defending itself?

I am not understanding your question.

You said:

I wish I were a good enough person to 100% embrace non-violence as the only solution.

I disagree that defending your country against violence with violence makes you a less good person than being a pacifist.

Or did you mean "I wish I did not have to endorse the draft" (which is State violence against its own citizens) as the "only solution"?

No, I truly wish that I were a good enough person to be able to always embrace pacifism. But sometimes, under some circumstances I would endorse a draft. I do NOT see a draft as “state violence against its own citizens.”

I DO see non-medical restrictions on birth control or forced pregnancy and childbirth to be violence in most cases. I do not believe that abortions after good viability should be allowed except to avoid substantial harm to the mother or suffering to the child if born.

 

[Metaphor]

No, I truly wish that I were a good enough person to be able to always embrace pacifism. But sometimes, under some circumstances I would endorse a draft. I do NOT see a draft as “state violence against its own citizens.”

Pacifists are not good people. Pacifists can only indulge their pacifism because there really are good people who will sacrifice and die so that pacifists can continue to exist. Gandhi thought that, in the face of German violence against Jews, the Jews should have killed themselves.

So, fuck the idea that pacifism is the mark of a 'good' person. Fuck it to hell (but not back).

I cannot see how you can not see the draft as State violence against her citizens. But perhaps because your body will never be appropriated to kill others against your will, it doesn't seem like a big deal to you.

EDIT: Added link to the above claim about Gandhi, which sounds unbelievable so I thought it needed evidence.

 

[ZiprHead]

The older one becomes, the more shades of gray one can discern. I wish I were a good enough person to 100% embrace non-violence as the only solution. I do, in theory. But I also know that sometimes, evil must be stopped before all is destroyed.

How does being opposed to the draft mean you are opposed to a country defending itself?

I am not understanding your question.

You said:

I wish I were a good enough person to 100% embrace non-violence as the only solution.

I disagree that defending your country against violence with violence makes you a less good person than being a pacifist.

Or did you mean "I wish I did not have to endorse the draft" (which is State violence against its own citizens) as the "only solution"?

“Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accept the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay-and claims a halo for his dishonesty.”
― Robert Heinlein

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm sure it would.

Me? I'm old and out of shape but I know enough chemistry to do some damage. I'd stay. But that's me.

How much use would chemistry knowledge be? I would think you wouldn't have much ability to get your hands on stuff to do useful chemistry on.

Obviously chemistry is not your thing.

In normal times I would certainly think someone who knows chemistry could make useful stuff. I'm saying that in the current situation I think there won't be much in the way of raw ingredients available.

 

[laughing dog]

Ah , more inept pedantry.

You debunked nothing. Ukraine is preventing men 18-60 from leaving its borders. This has been confirmed by multiple stories.

Irrelevant to the issue of conscription.

Ukraine is Ukraine. But even if I accepted the existence of these breakaway countries as legitimate States, that would detract nothing from my argument that the State is appropriating male bodies and it would not make me oppose the draft any less.

It is either incredibly disingenuous or fucking stupid to equate the legitimate government of Ukraine with the breakaway “republics” in order to avoid admitting a mistake about your claim about conscription for all men 18 to 60.

Your quoting is getting sloppier but you are wrong. Ukraine detaining men 18-60 is not irrelevant to the issue of conscription. They are detaining people that they may or intend to conscript.

Or may not conscript, which makes them separate..

You are wrong that I equated the breakaway republics with Ukraine. They are part of the Ukraine, they are not the Ukraine. However, it was Ukraine that detained men and it is within Ukraine that men are being drafted to defend Ukraine.

You are the one who used the breakaway republics as the example of The legitimate gov’t of Ukraine conscription, not me.
Your excuse is disingenuous.

 

[Metaphor]

Ah , more inept pedantry.

You debunked nothing. Ukraine is preventing men 18-60 from leaving its borders. This has been confirmed by multiple stories.

Irrelevant to the issue of conscription.

Ukraine is Ukraine. But even if I accepted the existence of these breakaway countries as legitimate States, that would detract nothing from my argument that the State is appropriating male bodies and it would not make me oppose the draft any less.

It is either incredibly disingenuous or fucking stupid to equate the legitimate government of Ukraine with the breakaway “republics” in order to avoid admitting a mistake about your claim about conscription for all men 18 to 60.

Your quoting is getting sloppier but you are wrong. Ukraine detaining men 18-60 is not irrelevant to the issue of conscription. They are detaining people that they may or intend to conscript.

Or may not conscript, which makes them separate..

Yes, holding the people you may want to conscript in the future, because you may want to conscript them, is indeed not the same action as conscripting them. It will be worse for the people eventually conscripted.

You are wrong that I equated the breakaway republics with Ukraine. They are part of the Ukraine, they are not the Ukraine. However, it was Ukraine that detained men and it is within Ukraine that men are being drafted to defend Ukraine.

You are the one who used the breakaway republics as the example of The legitimate gov’t of Ukraine conscription, not me.
Your excuse is disingenuous.

I did not say 'legitimate government'. Those are your words, conjured in the post above. I said 'Ukraine', which is true, and the State. The State is sometimes legitimate and sometimes it is not.

That 'breakaway republics' (which have no international recognition and as far as I can see, and no separate statehood from that of Ukraine) are actively drafting people is not the point. Ukraine detained those men in order to be able to draft them.

Also, Ukraine is drafting men. But even if it were not (it is), my OP was not about Ukraine doing it specifically, although it is obviously a timely example. My own country drafted men in the 1970s to fight a war a world away. It forced 19 year old mechanics into 19 year old killers. Your country did it, too.

 

[Toni]

No, I truly wish that I were a good enough person to be able to always embrace pacifism. But sometimes, under some circumstances I would endorse a draft. I do NOT see a draft as “state violence against its own citizens.”

Pacifists are not good people. Pacifists can only indulge their pacifism because there really are good people who will sacrifice and die so that pacifists can continue to exist. Gandhi thought that, in the face of German violence against Jews, the Jews should have killed themselves.

So, fuck the idea that pacifism is the mark of a 'good' person. Fuck it to hell (but not back).

I cannot see how you can not see the draft as State violence against her citizens. But perhaps because your body will never be appropriated to kill others against your will, it doesn't seem like a big deal to you.

EDIT: Added link to the above claim about Gandhi, which sounds unbelievable so I thought it needed evidence.

It DOES seem like an extremely big deal to me! I have many relatives who served in combat. Cousins only a few years older than me were drafted for Viet Nam. I saw what that did to them! Every one of my uncl s were in WW II. My grandfather was disabled and died early as a result of his time in WW I. My own son enlisted, served in Afghanistan, 15 months during which I did not sleep ( technically not biologically possible but) —I felt the same grief plus considerably more fear during those months as I did during the months leading up to my parents’ deaths.

I also know women who have served in the Middle East. Way back, at one job I worked, my female supervisor had served as a nurse in the military in Viet Nam. So yes, women do serve in combat, have always done so, even if it meant disguising themselves as men to do so. Women volunteered to nurse on front lines to save their brothers from the draft. My mother got pregnant to keep my father from the draft. People I know and love dealt have been in some very very dangerous positions in the military, in various wars and ‘wars.’ I saw what it did to them. I saw what it did to my son.

Do you think that if it had been possible for me to do so I would not have traded places with my son? I would in a heartbeat! Right now, I’m worried he will be called up again. He tells me worst case scenario, he’d just end up in Poland. I am not comforted. Also, if the past is any predictor of the future, my guesses are better than his about where he would be sent.

Do you think I would not go instead of my son, 1000 times over? Do you not think that my blood boils every time some old man who has never served and will never serve stats drum beating?

My god! The reason I embrace pacifism is because I know what it does to people to kill someone, to see others killed. I write this knowing full well that I would kill before I let someone kill a loved one. And I’d bear the burden for those soldiers if it made any difference.

War is evil. Sometimes, it absolutely is the lesser of two evils. But that doesn’t make it any less evil or any more noble.

 

[Toni]

Ah , more inept pedantry.

You debunked nothing. Ukraine is preventing men 18-60 from leaving its borders. This has been confirmed by multiple stories.

Irrelevant to the issue of conscription.

Ukraine is Ukraine. But even if I accepted the existence of these breakaway countries as legitimate States, that would detract nothing from my argument that the State is appropriating male bodies and it would not make me oppose the draft any less.

It is either incredibly disingenuous or fucking stupid to equate the legitimate government of Ukraine with the breakaway “republics” in order to avoid admitting a mistake about your claim about conscription for all men 18 to 60.

Your quoting is getting sloppier but you are wrong. Ukraine detaining men 18-60 is not irrelevant to the issue of conscription. They are detaining people that they may or intend to conscript.

Or may not conscript, which makes them separate..

Yes, holding the people you may want to conscript in the future, because you may want to conscript them, is indeed not the same action as conscripting them. It will be worse for the people eventually conscripted.

You are wrong that I equated the breakaway republics with Ukraine. They are part of the Ukraine, they are not the Ukraine. However, it was Ukraine that detained men and it is within Ukraine that men are being drafted to defend Ukraine.

You are the one who used the breakaway republics as the example of The legitimate gov’t of Ukraine conscription, not me.
Your excuse is disingenuous.

I did not say 'legitimate government'. Those are your words, conjured in the post above. I said 'Ukraine', which is true, and the State. The State is sometimes legitimate and sometimes it is not.

That 'breakaway republics' (which have no international recognition and as far as I can see, and no separate statehood from that of Ukraine) are actively drafting people is not the point. Ukraine detained those men in order to be able to draft them.

Also, Ukraine is drafting men. But even if it were not (it is), my OP was not about Ukraine doing it specifically, although it is obviously a timely example. My own country drafted men in the 1970s to fight a war a world away. It forced 19 year old mechanics into 19 year old killers. Your country did it, too.

Up to 15% of those from gating in Ukraine are women who volunteered.

 

[Metaphor]

My god! The reason I embrace pacifism is because I know what it does to people to kill someone, to see others killed. I write this knowing full well that I would kill before I let someone kill a loved one.

Then you are not a pacifist, and you would not be a better person if you actually became one. You'd be a worse person.

 

[Metaphor]

Ah , more inept pedantry.

You debunked nothing. Ukraine is preventing men 18-60 from leaving its borders. This has been confirmed by multiple stories.

Irrelevant to the issue of conscription.

Ukraine is Ukraine. But even if I accepted the existence of these breakaway countries as legitimate States, that would detract nothing from my argument that the State is appropriating male bodies and it would not make me oppose the draft any less.

It is either incredibly disingenuous or fucking stupid to equate the legitimate government of Ukraine with the breakaway “republics” in order to avoid admitting a mistake about your claim about conscription for all men 18 to 60.

Your quoting is getting sloppier but you are wrong. Ukraine detaining men 18-60 is not irrelevant to the issue of conscription. They are detaining people that they may or intend to conscript.

Or may not conscript, which makes them separate..

Yes, holding the people you may want to conscript in the future, because you may want to conscript them, is indeed not the same action as conscripting them. It will be worse for the people eventually conscripted.

You are wrong that I equated the breakaway republics with Ukraine. They are part of the Ukraine, they are not the Ukraine. However, it was Ukraine that detained men and it is within Ukraine that men are being drafted to defend Ukraine.

You are the one who used the breakaway republics as the example of The legitimate gov’t of Ukraine conscription, not me.
Your excuse is disingenuous.

I did not say 'legitimate government'. Those are your words, conjured in the post above. I said 'Ukraine', which is true, and the State. The State is sometimes legitimate and sometimes it is not.

That 'breakaway republics' (which have no international recognition and as far as I can see, and no separate statehood from that of Ukraine) are actively drafting people is not the point. Ukraine detained those men in order to be able to draft them.

Also, Ukraine is drafting men. But even if it were not (it is), my OP was not about Ukraine doing it specifically, although it is obviously a timely example. My own country drafted men in the 1970s to fight a war a world away. It forced 19 year old mechanics into 19 year old killers. Your country did it, too.

Up to 15% of those from gating in Ukraine are women who volunteered.

I have said nothing about people volunteering to fight. Women have not been conscripted in the Ukraine, and no country in the world that conscripts women does not also conscript men.

I have spoken out against the State appropriating men's bodies to force those men to become killers and/or be killed.

 

[Toni]

Ah , more inept pedantry.

You debunked nothing. Ukraine is preventing men 18-60 from leaving its borders. This has been confirmed by multiple stories.

Irrelevant to the issue of conscription.

Ukraine is Ukraine. But even if I accepted the existence of these breakaway countries as legitimate States, that would detract nothing from my argument that the State is appropriating male bodies and it would not make me oppose the draft any less.

It is either incredibly disingenuous or fucking stupid to equate the legitimate government of Ukraine with the breakaway “republics” in order to avoid admitting a mistake about your claim about conscription for all men 18 to 60.

Your quoting is getting sloppier but you are wrong. Ukraine detaining men 18-60 is not irrelevant to the issue of conscription. They are detaining people that they may or intend to conscript.

Or may not conscript, which makes them separate..

Yes, holding the people you may want to conscript in the future, because you may want to conscript them, is indeed not the same action as conscripting them. It will be worse for the people eventually conscripted.

You are wrong that I equated the breakaway republics with Ukraine. They are part of the Ukraine, they are not the Ukraine. However, it was Ukraine that detained men and it is within Ukraine that men are being drafted to defend Ukraine.

You are the one who used the breakaway republics as the example of The legitimate gov’t of Ukraine conscription, not me.
Your excuse is disingenuous.

I did not say 'legitimate government'. Those are your words, conjured in the post above. I said 'Ukraine', which is true, and the State. The State is sometimes legitimate and sometimes it is not.

That 'breakaway republics' (which have no international recognition and as far as I can see, and no separate statehood from that of Ukraine) are actively drafting people is not the point. Ukraine detained those men in order to be able to draft them.

Also, Ukraine is drafting men. But even if it were not (it is), my OP was not about Ukraine doing it specifically, although it is obviously a timely example. My own country drafted men in the 1970s to fight a war a world away. It forced 19 year old mechanics into 19 year old killers. Your country did it, too.

Up to 15% of those from gating in Ukraine are women who volunteered.

I have said nothing about people volunteering to fight. Women have not been conscripted in the Ukraine, and no country in the world that conscripts women does not also conscript men.

I have spoken out against the State appropriating men's bodies to force those men to become killers and/or be killed.

Sigh. Sometimes, the only choice for survival is to stand and fight. And sometimes you have to force people to do so.

 

[ZiprHead]

Ah , more inept pedantry.

You debunked nothing. Ukraine is preventing men 18-60 from leaving its borders. This has been confirmed by multiple stories.

Irrelevant to the issue of conscription.

Ukraine is Ukraine. But even if I accepted the existence of these breakaway countries as legitimate States, that would detract nothing from my argument that the State is appropriating male bodies and it would not make me oppose the draft any less.

It is either incredibly disingenuous or fucking stupid to equate the legitimate government of Ukraine with the breakaway “republics” in order to avoid admitting a mistake about your claim about conscription for all men 18 to 60.

Your quoting is getting sloppier but you are wrong. Ukraine detaining men 18-60 is not irrelevant to the issue of conscription. They are detaining people that they may or intend to conscript.

Or may not conscript, which makes them separate..

Yes, holding the people you may want to conscript in the future, because you may want to conscript them, is indeed not the same action as conscripting them. It will be worse for the people eventually conscripted.

You are wrong that I equated the breakaway republics with Ukraine. They are part of the Ukraine, they are not the Ukraine. However, it was Ukraine that detained men and it is within Ukraine that men are being drafted to defend Ukraine.

You are the one who used the breakaway republics as the example of The legitimate gov’t of Ukraine conscription, not me.
Your excuse is disingenuous.

I did not say 'legitimate government'. Those are your words, conjured in the post above. I said 'Ukraine', which is true, and the State. The State is sometimes legitimate and sometimes it is not.

That 'breakaway republics' (which have no international recognition and as far as I can see, and no separate statehood from that of Ukraine) are actively drafting people is not the point. Ukraine detained those men in order to be able to draft them.

Also, Ukraine is drafting men. But even if it were not (it is), my OP was not about Ukraine doing it specifically, although it is obviously a timely example. My own country drafted men in the 1970s to fight a war a world away. It forced 19 year old mechanics into 19 year old killers. Your country did it, too.

Up to 15% of those from gating in Ukraine are women who volunteered.

I have said nothing about people volunteering to fight. Women have not been conscripted in the Ukraine, and no country in the world that conscripts women does not also conscript men.

I have spoken out against the State appropriating men's bodies to force those men to become killers and/or be killed.

Sigh. Sometimes, the only choice for survival is to stand and fight. And sometimes you have to force people to do so.

“Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, 'he that is not with me is against me'.”
― George Orwell

This is what Metaphor is doing.

 

[Metaphor]

Ah , more inept pedantry.

You debunked nothing. Ukraine is preventing men 18-60 from leaving its borders. This has been confirmed by multiple stories.

Irrelevant to the issue of conscription.

Ukraine is Ukraine. But even if I accepted the existence of these breakaway countries as legitimate States, that would detract nothing from my argument that the State is appropriating male bodies and it would not make me oppose the draft any less.

It is either incredibly disingenuous or fucking stupid to equate the legitimate government of Ukraine with the breakaway “republics” in order to avoid admitting a mistake about your claim about conscription for all men 18 to 60.

Your quoting is getting sloppier but you are wrong. Ukraine detaining men 18-60 is not irrelevant to the issue of conscription. They are detaining people that they may or intend to conscript.

Or may not conscript, which makes them separate..

Yes, holding the people you may want to conscript in the future, because you may want to conscript them, is indeed not the same action as conscripting them. It will be worse for the people eventually conscripted.

You are wrong that I equated the breakaway republics with Ukraine. They are part of the Ukraine, they are not the Ukraine. However, it was Ukraine that detained men and it is within Ukraine that men are being drafted to defend Ukraine.

You are the one who used the breakaway republics as the example of The legitimate gov’t of Ukraine conscription, not me.
Your excuse is disingenuous.

I did not say 'legitimate government'. Those are your words, conjured in the post above. I said 'Ukraine', which is true, and the State. The State is sometimes legitimate and sometimes it is not.

That 'breakaway republics' (which have no international recognition and as far as I can see, and no separate statehood from that of Ukraine) are actively drafting people is not the point. Ukraine detained those men in order to be able to draft them.

Also, Ukraine is drafting men. But even if it were not (it is), my OP was not about Ukraine doing it specifically, although it is obviously a timely example. My own country drafted men in the 1970s to fight a war a world away. It forced 19 year old mechanics into 19 year old killers. Your country did it, too.

Up to 15% of those from gating in Ukraine are women who volunteered.

I have said nothing about people volunteering to fight. Women have not been conscripted in the Ukraine, and no country in the world that conscripts women does not also conscript men.

I have spoken out against the State appropriating men's bodies to force those men to become killers and/or be killed.

Sigh. Sometimes, the only choice for survival is to stand and fight. And sometimes you have to force people to do so.

“Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, 'he that is not with me is against me'.”
― George Orwell

This is what Metaphor is doing.

What am I doing? I am not a pacifist, so it can't be that.

Do you mean "speaking out against the draft"? Yes, I am against the draft. If you are now making the argument "people against the draft are pro-Russia and anti-Ukraine", I don't know what to say to you.

 

[Metaphor]

Ah , more inept pedantry.

You debunked nothing. Ukraine is preventing men 18-60 from leaving its borders. This has been confirmed by multiple stories.

Irrelevant to the issue of conscription.

Ukraine is Ukraine. But even if I accepted the existence of these breakaway countries as legitimate States, that would detract nothing from my argument that the State is appropriating male bodies and it would not make me oppose the draft any less.

It is either incredibly disingenuous or fucking stupid to equate the legitimate government of Ukraine with the breakaway “republics” in order to avoid admitting a mistake about your claim about conscription for all men 18 to 60.

Your quoting is getting sloppier but you are wrong. Ukraine detaining men 18-60 is not irrelevant to the issue of conscription. They are detaining people that they may or intend to conscript.

Or may not conscript, which makes them separate..

Yes, holding the people you may want to conscript in the future, because you may want to conscript them, is indeed not the same action as conscripting them. It will be worse for the people eventually conscripted.

You are wrong that I equated the breakaway republics with Ukraine. They are part of the Ukraine, they are not the Ukraine. However, it was Ukraine that detained men and it is within Ukraine that men are being drafted to defend Ukraine.

You are the one who used the breakaway republics as the example of The legitimate gov’t of Ukraine conscription, not me.
Your excuse is disingenuous.

I did not say 'legitimate government'. Those are your words, conjured in the post above. I said 'Ukraine', which is true, and the State. The State is sometimes legitimate and sometimes it is not.

That 'breakaway republics' (which have no international recognition and as far as I can see, and no separate statehood from that of Ukraine) are actively drafting people is not the point. Ukraine detained those men in order to be able to draft them.

Also, Ukraine is drafting men. But even if it were not (it is), my OP was not about Ukraine doing it specifically, although it is obviously a timely example. My own country drafted men in the 1970s to fight a war a world away. It forced 19 year old mechanics into 19 year old killers. Your country did it, too.

Up to 15% of those from gating in Ukraine are women who volunteered.

I have said nothing about people volunteering to fight. Women have not been conscripted in the Ukraine, and no country in the world that conscripts women does not also conscript men.

I have spoken out against the State appropriating men's bodies to force those men to become killers and/or be killed.

Sigh. Sometimes, the only choice for survival is to stand and fight. And sometimes you have to force people to do so.

It's amazing to see a woman speak so blithely about the State-forced appropriation of men's bodies for her own benefit. Except when it isn't amazing.

 

[Toni]

Ah , more inept pedantry.

You debunked nothing. Ukraine is preventing men 18-60 from leaving its borders. This has been confirmed by multiple stories.

Irrelevant to the issue of conscription.

Ukraine is Ukraine. But even if I accepted the existence of these breakaway countries as legitimate States, that would detract nothing from my argument that the State is appropriating male bodies and it would not make me oppose the draft any less.

It is either incredibly disingenuous or fucking stupid to equate the legitimate government of Ukraine with the breakaway “republics” in order to avoid admitting a mistake about your claim about conscription for all men 18 to 60.

Your quoting is getting sloppier but you are wrong. Ukraine detaining men 18-60 is not irrelevant to the issue of conscription. They are detaining people that they may or intend to conscript.

Or may not conscript, which makes them separate..

Yes, holding the people you may want to conscript in the future, because you may want to conscript them, is indeed not the same action as conscripting them. It will be worse for the people eventually conscripted.

You are wrong that I equated the breakaway republics with Ukraine. They are part of the Ukraine, they are not the Ukraine. However, it was Ukraine that detained men and it is within Ukraine that men are being drafted to defend Ukraine.

You are the one who used the breakaway republics as the example of The legitimate gov’t of Ukraine conscription, not me.
Your excuse is disingenuous.

I did not say 'legitimate government'. Those are your words, conjured in the post above. I said 'Ukraine', which is true, and the State. The State is sometimes legitimate and sometimes it is not.

That 'breakaway republics' (which have no international recognition and as far as I can see, and no separate statehood from that of Ukraine) are actively drafting people is not the point. Ukraine detained those men in order to be able to draft them.

Also, Ukraine is drafting men. But even if it were not (it is), my OP was not about Ukraine doing it specifically, although it is obviously a timely example. My own country drafted men in the 1970s to fight a war a world away. It forced 19 year old mechanics into 19 year old killers. Your country did it, too.

Up to 15% of those from gating in Ukraine are women who volunteered.

I have said nothing about people volunteering to fight. Women have not been conscripted in the Ukraine, and no country in the world that conscripts women does not also conscript men.

I have spoken out against the State appropriating men's bodies to force those men to become killers and/or be killed.

Sigh. Sometimes, the only choice for survival is to stand and fight. And sometimes you have to force people to do so.

It's amazing to see a woman speak so blithely about the State-forced appropriation of men's bodies for her own benefit. Except when it isn't amazing.

You’re right: it is so amazing that it is absolutely fucking unbelievable.
@EmilyLake in case you wonder about poor little Met’s little fee fees getting hurt.

 

[Toni]

Ah , more inept pedantry.

You debunked nothing. Ukraine is preventing men 18-60 from leaving its borders. This has been confirmed by multiple stories.

Irrelevant to the issue of conscription.

Ukraine is Ukraine. But even if I accepted the existence of these breakaway countries as legitimate States, that would detract nothing from my argument that the State is appropriating male bodies and it would not make me oppose the draft any less.

It is either incredibly disingenuous or fucking stupid to equate the legitimate government of Ukraine with the breakaway “republics” in order to avoid admitting a mistake about your claim about conscription for all men 18 to 60.

Your quoting is getting sloppier but you are wrong. Ukraine detaining men 18-60 is not irrelevant to the issue of conscription. They are detaining people that they may or intend to conscript.

Or may not conscript, which makes them separate..

Yes, holding the people you may want to conscript in the future, because you may want to conscript them, is indeed not the same action as conscripting them. It will be worse for the people eventually conscripted.

You are wrong that I equated the breakaway republics with Ukraine. They are part of the Ukraine, they are not the Ukraine. However, it was Ukraine that detained men and it is within Ukraine that men are being drafted to defend Ukraine.

You are the one who used the breakaway republics as the example of The legitimate gov’t of Ukraine conscription, not me.
Your excuse is disingenuous.

I did not say 'legitimate government'. Those are your words, conjured in the post above. I said 'Ukraine', which is true, and the State. The State is sometimes legitimate and sometimes it is not.

That 'breakaway republics' (which have no international recognition and as far as I can see, and no separate statehood from that of Ukraine) are actively drafting people is not the point. Ukraine detained those men in order to be able to draft them.

Also, Ukraine is drafting men. But even if it were not (it is), my OP was not about Ukraine doing it specifically, although it is obviously a timely example. My own country drafted men in the 1970s to fight a war a world away. It forced 19 year old mechanics into 19 year old killers. Your country did it, too.

Up to 15% of those from gating in Ukraine are women who volunteered.

I have said nothing about people volunteering to fight. Women have not been conscripted in the Ukraine, and no country in the world that conscripts women does not also conscript men.

I have spoken out against the State appropriating men's bodies to force those men to become killers and/or be killed.

Sigh. Sometimes, the only choice for survival is to stand and fight. And sometimes you have to force people to do so.

“Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, 'he that is not with me is against me'.”
― George Orwell

This is what Metaphor is doing.

Yes, he’s being oh, so Meta.