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Transracial Woman Under Fire in Spokane

Whether this particular women is "bonkers" is irrelevant to whether her claim to a black racial identity should be respected.

Not only is she bonkers, she is a proven liar and a charlatan. It's help she needs, not respect.

How is she any more of a "proven liar and a charlatan" than Bruce Jenner? She gave a short interview last night and was talking about how even at the age of 5 she was drawing portraits of herself as a black girl. I don't think anyone disputes that everything Rachel has done in her life thus far has been indicative of her seeing herself as black - including the art portfolio that got her accepted to a traditional black college and her entire adult career.
 
No, the treatment we give is the product of a long history of assessment and trial treatment from psychological and medical professionals. Legal or medical changes typically require approval from doctors and other assessors before a person can go forward. That's a process which evolved after decades of skepticism and evaluation on transgender identities and the effects of social and medical transition processes. While in a place like British Columbia, it is relatively easy to get started on HRT if you go to the doctor now, It's not like Jack just walks in and says "I'd like to be Judy," and the the doctor goes "Well, that''s different. Sure, why not?" The doctor is already versed in the subject matter and what has been tried in the past, and that knowledge can be applied to Jack/ Judy.

The process changes as new evidence emerges. For instance, FtM genital reconstruction was not initially covered under public heath insurance; however, a limited number of surgeries were approved to see whether further steps should be taken. No one said "Well, she says she wants a penis, so let's go for it." What they said was, "this person experiencing gender dysphoria, and he and others like him may see improvements with this procedure, so let's approve on a limited basis and assess the result before moving forward on a larger scale".

Even socially, the growing sense of legitimacy is partially tied to the sense that health professionals and scientists endorse transgender identities as something more than delusions, perversion or falsehood.

Heterosexual male-to-female transgenders generally do not have any objective properties (including neurological ones) that indicate femaleness.

We don't measure them on a case by case basis because our current level of knowledge is limited, and we don't have a lot of practical reasons to do so thus far. Some studies have indicated potential neurological difference in pre-treatment MtF transgender people. Further research needs to be done, but it's not the easiest subject matter to study.

http://www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956(10)00325-0/abstract

Even many former male transexuals are no more objectively "female" than this women is objectively black due to the changes in appearances she underwent compared to the childhood photo going around.

There is no basis for that claim. If a transgender person undergoes HrT, then they are objectively more female than they were before. If they start at the onset of puberty, much of their development will be highly female, and certain developments typical of males will not occur. After puberty the results vary, but there is an objective, biological feminizing impact of hormone replacement therapy. Changes do extend beyond the mere cosmetic. I don't know how we are supposed to compare this to the case of transracial identities or why that would be beneficial.

The politically "progressive" stance on transgenders is that no one should blink when a biological man walks into a women's locker room, because they might feel that they are a woman.

It's not. The politically progressive stance is that being transgender is more involved than simply saying "I'm not a dude; I'm a chick" to use the locker room of your choice. Right now any man who wishes to lie could do so already by walking into a women's locker room and saying "I was assigned female at birth, but transitioned to male; I just use this locker room because society places importance on birth gender rather than gender identity."

People that react as though they might not be a woman are attacked as intolerant bigots (see recent story about the woman who lost a gym membership for such a situation).

And? In principle bigotry is bad, but I'm not sure the relevance of this case or particularly interested in who was right or wrong in an individual dispute. Would it have much bearing on transgender or transracial identities if it turns out overzealous social justice crusaders make bad calls in some cases?

If anything biological sex is a more objective, definable, and scientifically validated concept than racial or even ethnic categories. Thus, subjective declarations of racial identity should get even more deference and tolerance than gender declarations.

There are a number of problems with that statement. First, biological sex has a number of objective, exceptional cases (outside of transgender identities) which don't fit typical patters, so objectively, exceptions have to be recognized as much as the norm.

Second, both race and gender have some objective and subjective components, but the the objective components of gender are what makes it easier to study and treat gender dysphoria. We have a long way to go, but things like neurology can be studied, and things like hormones levels can be monitored and regulated. This is NOT a comparison to what may or may not apply to the transracial scenario, but rather an explanation that objective components can be useful in the context of identifying and treating gender dysphoria, even if we have a very long way to go in our understanding of the subject matter.

Third, a transgender person having gone through certain parts of transition won't cleanly fit all of the objective criteria we know of for either gender so at the very least the 'trans' part is objectively validated at that point. I know that's not typically what people transitioning aim for, but in connection with the first and second points, we've come to some objective validation of an exceptional case to biological gender norms. Again, the idea that transition is a suitable treatment option for many gender dysphoric treatment is not something based off of self-identified traits alone, but based off of broader steady and treatment attempts across decades.

Fourth, it isn't a competition. Neither transgender identities nor transracial identities gain or lose legitimacy based on the status of the other or how they compare.

That's fine, so long as we are equally open to transgenderism sometimes being a "bullshit condition".

There is no reason for that. We cannot reverse our current level of understanding on transgender identities in pursuit of some faux-egalitarianism with transracialism about which we seem to know fairly little. People will call both identities bullshit, but there is more to say counter to that at present time where transgender identities are concerned.

Also, as transgenders show, how "exceptional" such cases are is culturally determined by the very issue of acceptance under discussion.

Not really. Even if the known incidence rates quintupled with greater acceptance, the transgender population would go from what? 0.01% of the population or less to 0.05% of the population or less? What's the appreciable difference here for those who claim that transgender identities cause them, their cause, or society harm?

I think you have made many excellent points here. I guess the question is: could that potentially apply to someone like Rachel who appears to genuinely feel like she's a person born in the wrong body? I agree that we do have years of medical and psychological information that supports the transgender person; but if a psychologist were to find that Rachel's self-identification was every bit as genuine as Bruce Jenner's - does that mean Rachel is "black"?
 
I think you have made many excellent points here. I guess the question is: could that potentially apply to someone like Rachel who appears to genuinely feel like she's a person born in the wrong body? I agree that we do have years of medical and psychological information that supports the transgender person; but if a psychologist were to find that Rachel's self-identification was every bit as genuine as Bruce Jenner's - does that mean Rachel is "black"?

Can we consult with Eminem's psychiatrist about this?
 
I think you have made many excellent points here. I guess the question is: could that potentially apply to someone like Rachel who appears to genuinely feel like she's a person born in the wrong body?

Which part? That we have better scientific explanations down the road? I'm not qualified to say, but I personally have no reason to rule it out. I think her rights and treatment in society shouldn't be contingent on having a biological or psychological explanation which makes us feel good, though.
 
I think you have made many excellent points here. I guess the question is: could that potentially apply to someone like Rachel who appears to genuinely feel like she's a person born in the wrong body? I agree that we do have years of medical and psychological information that supports the transgender person; but if a psychologist were to find that Rachel's self-identification was every bit as genuine as Bruce Jenner's - does that mean Rachel is "black"?

Can we consult with Eminem's psychiatrist about this?

Rihanna? Sure. Her take on this would be interesting.
 
I think society at large and African Americans have the right to not accept that she is a black woman.
 
I think you have made many excellent points here. I guess the question is: could that potentially apply to someone like Rachel who appears to genuinely feel like she's a person born in the wrong body?

Which part? That we have better scientific explanations down the road? I'm not qualified to say, but I personally have no reason to rule it out. I think her rights and treatment in society shouldn't be contingent on having a biological or psychological explanation which makes us feel good, though.

I agree on the bolded, and as you noted - even having a biological or psychological explanation doesn't guarantee general social acceptance.

I'm just finding the reactions to Rachel Dolezal and the objections to her identifying as "black" to be very interesting.

This person (a black transgender person) tries to explain the difference between identifying as a different sex than one is at birth vs identifying as a different race than one is at birth:

A popular defense of Rachel Dolezal is that, race is a social construct, in the same way that gender is a social construct. So why is her story any different from Caitlyn’s? Race and gender are absolutely social constructs. The difference is that, gender is not a biological trait passed from parent to child, whereas race is. Evolution was regional, and there’s a reason why my skin is dark, and my ancestors come from the hot regions of Africa.

Gender, of course, is not passed from parent to child. Gender is a social construct, that usually pertains to, and differentiates between, masculinity and femininity. Gender does not hold the same biological basis that race does.
In my opinion, she is mixing up biology and social construct. Biologically she was born "male" just as much as biologically Rachel was born "white". And from a biological perspective, having male sex organs vs female sex organs is (usually) a lot more clear cut than being born "white" or "black". As a society we do have a word - gender - for the social construct of masculine vs feminine (and everything in between) that is separate from the biological word "sex." We don't have a separate word for the biological aspect of "race" - mostly because (unlike "sex") it really does not exist in biology. I think the author of the above quote really got it backwards.


She goes on to also discuss the difference between her and Rachel from the experiences of a black woman:

Part of being a black woman in this world, is coping with anti-blackness, and the self hate that comes from living in a euro centric society. Many black women, have to go through a journey of self acceptance and love, because they’re taught from day one, that their natural features are not beautiful. That, is part of the black female experience in this society. It’s an experience that Rachel Dolezal will only know from an academic standpoint. As a black woman, these are things that I’ve had to deal with.

This one really annoys me given that this person also did not grow up experiencing life as a black female. So why does she get to appropriate the life experiences of a black girl as her own, but Rachel can't? Or if she is only referring to living her adult life as a black woman, how is that different from Rachel? Rachel has been living as a black woman for 10 years, and will have had to "deal with" the same issues of being a black woman as this author.

So I get that the author is all kinds of pissed-off at Rachel Dolezal. I just don't see a rational argument behind it. And that has been the case for almost every argument against why Rachel Dolezal can't be a black woman if she wants to be. :p
 
This one really annoys me given that this person also did not grow up experiencing life as a black female. So why does she get to appropriate the life experiences of a black girl as her own, but Rachel can't? Or if she is only referring to living her adult life as a black woman, how is that different from Rachel? Rachel has been living as a black woman for 10 years, and will have had to "deal with" the same issues of being a black woman as this author.

I am doubtful this is intrinsic to the experience of being a black woman anyway. Usually the things people say to invalidate the 'trans' experience would also end up invalidating some of the 'cis' population as well.
 
Buzz Feed said:
Ezra believes the only reason his sister would change her identity was due to the racism she claimed to have encountered at Howard University, where she graduated with her master’s degree in fine art in 2002.

Rachel, he added, would often complain that she was treated poorly as one of only a few white students on a mostly black campus.

“She used to tell us that teachers treated her differently than other people and a lot of them acted like they didn’t want her there,” Ezra said. “Because of her work in African-American art, they thought she was a black student during her application, but they ended up with a white person.”
Funny how the Left talks a lot about diversity in higher education, yet ignores colleges where lack of diversity is their whole raison-d-etre.
 
Again, the one-drop rule needs to be taken out back and shot.
I agree. Especially in light of interracial relationships/marriages the idea that you are one race or another is not realistic.

This sort of confusion will continue as long as the definition of blackness continues to be decided by white people.
I do not think this has anything to do with whites supposedly controlling "the definition of blackness". Those who insist of one drop rule these days tend to be black nationalists who like it because it increases the black political power.

I think "this sort of confusion" will continue as long as race continues to give people legal (for example affirmative action) and social (racist jokes against whites only one deemed socially acceptable for example) benefits.
 
Leave it to Derec to turn every situation into a topsy-turvy big bad minority is so horrible to the white-male-majority

:lol:
 
Leave it to Derec to turn every situation into a topsy-turvy big bad minority is so horrible to the white-male-majority

:lol:

My position is the classic liberal one - that people should be treated the same with no regard as to their race. The modern so-called liberals don't like that and perpetuate racism with all the race-based double standards they support.
 
Many black women, have to go through a journey of self acceptance and love, because they’re taught from day one, that their natural features are not beautiful. That, is part of the black female experience in this society. It’s an experience that Rachel Dolezal will only know from an academic standpoint. As a black woman, these are things that I’ve had to deal with.
This isn't true at all because Rachel never had attractive features based on all the photos available.
 
No, the treatment we give is the product of a long history of assessment and trial treatment from psychological and medical professionals. Legal or medical changes typically require approval from doctors and other assessors before a person can go forward. That's a process which evolved after decades of skepticism and evaluation on transgender identities and the effects of social and medical transition processes. While in a place like British Columbia, it is relatively easy to get started on HRT if you go to the doctor now, It's not like Jack just walks in and says "I'd like to be Judy," and the the doctor goes "Well, that''s different. Sure, why not?" The doctor is already versed in the subject matter and what has been tried in the past, and that knowledge can be applied to Jack/ Judy.

The process changes as new evidence emerges. For instance, FtM genital reconstruction was not initially covered under public heath insurance; however, a limited number of surgeries were approved to see whether further steps should be taken. No one said "Well, she says she wants a penis, so let's go for it." What they said was, "this person experiencing gender dysphoria, and he and others like him may see improvements with this procedure, so let's approve on a limited basis and assess the result before moving forward on a larger scale".

Even socially, the growing sense of legitimacy is partially tied to the sense that health professionals and scientists endorse transgender identities as something more than delusions, perversion or falsehood.



We don't measure them on a case by case basis because our current level of knowledge is limited, and we don't have a lot of practical reasons to do so thus far. Some studies have indicated potential neurological difference in pre-treatment MtF transgender people. Further research needs to be done, but it's not the easiest subject matter to study.

http://www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956(10)00325-0/abstract

Even many former male transexuals are no more objectively "female" than this women is objectively black due to the changes in appearances she underwent compared to the childhood photo going around.

There is no basis for that claim. If a transgender person undergoes HrT, then they are objectively more female than they were before. If they start at the onset of puberty, much of their development will be highly female, and certain developments typical of males will not occur. After puberty the results vary, but there is an objective, biological feminizing impact of hormone replacement therapy. Changes do extend beyond the mere cosmetic. I don't know how we are supposed to compare this to the case of transracial identities or why that would be beneficial.

The politically "progressive" stance on transgenders is that no one should blink when a biological man walks into a women's locker room, because they might feel that they are a woman.

It's not. The politically progressive stance is that being transgender is more involved than simply saying "I'm not a dude; I'm a chick" to use the locker room of your choice. Right now any man who wishes to lie could do so already by walking into a women's locker room and saying "I was assigned female at birth, but transitioned to male; I just use this locker room because society places importance on birth gender rather than gender identity."

People that react as though they might not be a woman are attacked as intolerant bigots (see recent story about the woman who lost a gym membership for such a situation).

And? In principle bigotry is bad, but I'm not sure the relevance of this case or particularly interested in who was right or wrong in an individual dispute. Would it have much bearing on transgender or transracial identities if it turns out overzealous social justice crusaders make bad calls in some cases?

If anything biological sex is a more objective, definable, and scientifically validated concept than racial or even ethnic categories. Thus, subjective declarations of racial identity should get even more deference and tolerance than gender declarations.

There are a number of problems with that statement. First, biological sex has a number of objective, exceptional cases (outside of transgender identities) which don't fit typical patters, so objectively, exceptions have to be recognized as much as the norm.

Second, both race and gender have some objective and subjective components, but the the objective components of gender are what makes it easier to study and treat gender dysphoria. We have a long way to go, but things like neurology can be studied, and things like hormones levels can be monitored and regulated. This is NOT a comparison to what may or may not apply to the transracial scenario, but rather an explanation that objective components can be useful in the context of identifying and treating gender dysphoria, even if we have a very long way to go in our understanding of the subject matter.

Third, a transgender person having gone through certain parts of transition won't cleanly fit all of the objective criteria we know of for either gender so at the very least the 'trans' part is objectively validated at that point. I know that's not typically what people transitioning aim for, but in connection with the first and second points, we've come to some objective validation of an exceptional case to biological gender norms. Again, the idea that transition is a suitable treatment option for many gender dysphoric treatment is not something based off of self-identified traits alone, but based off of broader steady and treatment attempts across decades.

Fourth, it isn't a competition. Neither transgender identities nor transracial identities gain or lose legitimacy based on the status of the other or how they compare.

That's fine, so long as we are equally open to transgenderism sometimes being a "bullshit condition".

There is no reason for that. We cannot reverse our current level of understanding on transgender identities in pursuit of some faux-egalitarianism with transracialism about which we seem to know fairly little. People will call both identities bullshit, but there is more to say counter to that at present time where transgender identities are concerned.

Also, as transgenders show, how "exceptional" such cases are is culturally determined by the very issue of acceptance under discussion.

Not really. Even if the known incidence rates quintupled with greater acceptance, the transgender population would go from what? 0.01% of the population or less to 0.05% of the population or less? What's the appreciable difference here for those who claim that transgender identities cause them, their cause, or society harm?

I think you have made many excellent points here. I guess the question is: could that potentially apply to someone like Rachel who appears to genuinely feel like she's a person born in the wrong body? I agree that we do have years of medical and psychological information that supports the transgender person; but if a psychologist were to find that Rachel's self-identification was every bit as genuine as Bruce Jenner's - does that mean Rachel is "black"?

I would think people with any need for intellectual consistency would think Dolezal is as much Black as Jenner is a Woman, while leaving room for a wide range of disagreement on just how much that is.
 
I was not aware of that reference. Clearly, I was not sufficiently aware of what either Eminem or Rhianna has been up to.
 
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