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Trayvon Martin Derail

He DID arm himself and go after Trayvon Martin. That is an indisputable fact.

No. He was already armed long before Trayvon came on the scene.

And he could have disarmed but he specifically chose to continue being armed while chasing down, stalking after an innocent kid. His training told him not to do it and he was informed about the danger it could cause to himself and others but he chose to do it anyway.

Loren Pechtel said:
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My mind's made up, don't bother me with the facts.

Your side is so anti-gun that you have no idea of what the law actually says.

What you are specifically missing in this case is that the law requires that your fear be reasonable. Would a reasonable man in the same situation feel the same fear?

Trayvon had EVERY reasonable reason to fear for his life. Zimmerman had none.

Having your head beaten against concrete is a reason to fear for your life.

Being chased down by a crazy person with a gun is reason to fear for your life. Not realizing that when you chase someone with your gun that they will be frightened is not an excuse to be that reckless and frightening to people, especially kids. What is wrong with you?
 
The scenario you present isn't outside the realm of possibility but it runs counter to ear-witness testimony from Jeantel and the neighbors, and it's such a strange decision for Martin to make that it requires support to be believable.

Is there anything in Martin's history that suggests he would do such a thing? Lots of people here have recounted times when they were followed by creepy strangers, and being upset about it was a pretty common theme, but none of them said they thought about going back to confront the creeper after they got away. What makes you think Martin was so different?

Jeantel wasn't honest.

As for why he went back--most people weren't seeking to avoid the police when they were being followed.
 
The evidence of fighting, allegedly from Martin's hacked cellphone and his prior suspension from school, shows Martin and his friends meeting up for refereed bare knuckle boxing matches with timed rounds and declared winners, apparently emulating Jude Law in the Sherlock Holmes movies. That is not street fighting. It's not even 'street'. It's stupid middle class teenaged boy stuff. They did that sort of thing at my high school (fake Kung Fu), they did it at my kid's high school (more parkour than fighting but some fake martial arts, too), and I have no doubt the boys will be doing it at my grandkids' school when the time comes.

And that's not street fighting??

His four suspensions from school were for

1. excessive tardiness
2. writing WTF on a locker
3. fighting on school grounds (not criminal)
4. having a baggie containing marijuana residue in his possession

#3 is most likely criminal, although usually such fights don't get reported to the police.

#4 implies criminal activity.

That's the sum and total of Martin's known transgressions. There is nothing there to suggest that, having just escaped from a creepy pursuer, he would turn right around and and go after him.

You're ignoring the stolen jewelry that they swept under the rug.
 
Oh yeah, because if Martin actually was up to no-good, then *obviously* he would walk over to someone he was afraid was a cop... :rolleyes:
You need to remember that Trayvon Martin Fan-Fic is riddled with plot holes.

Yup, lots and lots of plot holes trying to pretend he was an upstanding angel.
 
You need to remember that Trayvon Martin Fan-Fic is riddled with plot holes.

Yup, lots and lots of plot holes trying to pretend he was an upstanding angel.

To be sure, he was a kid who had never actually been in trouble with the law before and had no history of violent actions against adults or the use of firearms in a threatening manner. The same cannot be said for George Zimmerman, both before and AFTER Trayvon's murder.

The RECORD shows that George Zimmerman is a violent criminal, and fits the definition of what literally everyone but you would call a "thug." There is no factual basis to argue that Zimmerman's state of mind was any better than Martin's, and his history of violence -- even with weapons involved -- tells us his judgement is questionable at best.
 
And that's not street fighting??

No, it's not. Unless by street fighting you mean friendly competition.

If the stories circulating about what was found on Martin's cell phone are accurate (and we don't know who was responsible for the hacking or if what's been circulated really was found there), these were 100% voluntary boxing matches with timed rounds, referees, and Marquis of Queensbury rules. The information indicates that Martin fought one match and may have refereed another. That's not criminal conduct, no matter how much you'd like to pretend it is. It's a violation of school rules and pretty stupid IMO, but it's not a crime to have a boxing match, or a wrestling match, or a fake Kung Fu duel, or anything of the sort with your friends.

His four suspensions from school were for

1. excessive tardiness
2. writing WTF on a locker
3. fighting on school grounds (not criminal)
4. having a baggie containing marijuana residue in his possession

#3 is most likely criminal, although usually such fights don't get reported to the police.

No, it's not. It's a violation of school rules but it's not criminal unless and until it violates criminal law. There's no criminal law that I know of that says you can't have a voluntary boxing match with your friends. Perhaps you can link to one.

#4 implies criminal activity.

It does. But it doesn't imply being the kind of person who would turn around and go after a creepy guy you had safely avoided.

That's the sum and total of Martin's known transgressions. There is nothing there to suggest that, having just escaped from a creepy pursuer, he would turn right around and and go after him.

You're ignoring the stolen jewelry that they swept under the rug.

You're ignoring everything we learned about that Miami Herald story including but not limited to:

1. There was no evidence to support the claim. No eyewitnesses were identified, and no documentation was presented.

2. The reporter said she saw a school district document. We don't know if she saw a genuine school district report, an altered report, a forgery, or if she made the whole thing up. We do know that such documents are held in strict confidence, so if she saw a genuine one it had to have been stolen. That or else she was given improper access to confidential documents in the place where they're stored, which is also a crime.

3. The only part of the Miami Herald story that could be independently verified was the part about the school reporting it had 'found jewelry' and asking the police to check to see if jewelry matching that description had been reported stolen. The police responded that they had no reports of stolen jewelry matching that description, and nothing about the request indicated even the slightest link to Martin.

4. The Miami Herald pulled the story. Not even the paper that carried it is standing by it. No other news outlet (and there were several including the Boston Globe) could find any support for it.

Frankly, Loren, you seem all too credulous when a story comes along that paints Martin in a bad light. I shouldn't have to keep reminding you that that stolen jewelry story is just scurrilous gossip at this point. You should have checked it out when you first heard it, checked again when you wanted to discuss it again, and checked yet again before you brought it up a third time. This is the fourth time we're talking about it, and here you are acting as though everything in the Miami Herald story had been properly sourced and verified.

But even if that story had been shown to be true there is nothing in it to suggest that Martin was the kind of guy who would turn around and go after a creepy stranger after having successfully avoided him. That rumor about Martin doesn't get you anywhere near to having evidence he would have attacked Zimmerman.

ETA: I forgot about this:
The scenario you present isn't outside the realm of possibility but it runs counter to ear-witness testimony from Jeantel and the neighbors, and it's such a strange decision for Martin to make that it requires support to be believable.

Is there anything in Martin's history that suggests he would do such a thing? Lots of people here have recounted times when they were followed by creepy strangers, and being upset about it was a pretty common theme, but none of them said they thought about going back to confront the creeper after they got away. What makes you think Martin was so different?

Jeantel wasn't honest.

I suspect the reason you think so is because you don't want to believe her testimony, but perhaps you have better reasons. So please show us whatever it was that you used to reach that conclusion.
 
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You need to remember that Trayvon Martin Fan-Fic is riddled with plot holes.

Yup, lots and lots of plot holes trying to pretend he was an upstanding angel.
Do you get a statue or something for every year you hold onto that strawman?

Martin could have been a felon and it still doesn't justify Zimmerman's actions.
 
He DID arm himself and go after Trayvon Martin. That is an indisputable fact.

No. He was already armed long before Trayvon came on the scene.
He took his gun with him to go after Trayvon.

My mind's made up, don't bother me with the facts.

Your side is so anti-gun that you have no idea of what the law actually says.

What you are specifically missing in this case is that the law requires that your fear be reasonable. Would a reasonable man in the same situation feel the same fear?

Trayvon had EVERY reasonable reason to fear for his life. Zimmerman had none.

Having your head beaten against concrete is a reason to fear for your life.

He didn't have his head "beaten against concrete". That was another Zimmerman lie to make excuses for why he murdered Trayvon
 
The scenario you present isn't outside the realm of possibility but it runs counter to ear-witness testimony from Jeantel and the neighbors, and it's such a strange decision for Martin to make that it requires support to be believable.

Is there anything in Martin's history that suggests he would do such a thing? Lots of people here have recounted times when they were followed by creepy strangers, and being upset about it was a pretty common theme, but none of them said they thought about going back to confront the creeper after they got away. What makes you think Martin was so different?

Jeantel wasn't honest.

Zimmerman is the biggest fucking liar of all but you act like his every word is a proven fact.

You aren't this stupid, which leaves me to believe you really are this racist.
 
No. He was already armed long before Trayvon came on the scene.
He took his gun with him to go after Trayvon.

My mind's made up, don't bother me with the facts.

Your side is so anti-gun that you have no idea of what the law actually says.

What you are specifically missing in this case is that the law requires that your fear be reasonable. Would a reasonable man in the same situation feel the same fear?

Trayvon had EVERY reasonable reason to fear for his life. Zimmerman had none.

Having your head beaten against concrete is a reason to fear for your life.

He didn't have his head "beaten against concrete". That was another Zimmerman lie to make excuses for why he murdered Trayvon

The neighbor who was the closest saw Martin on top of Z with Z's head and on the sidewalk and M hitting him with his head there. He told them to stop and ran in to call 911.
 
Jeantel wasn't honest.

Zimmerman is the biggest fucking liar of all but you act like his every word is a proven fact.

You aren't this stupid, which leaves me to believe you really are this racist.

I think she made up the worry about Z being a rapist, but I do hope that she was the one who said to M you are safe, don't go back after him and M ignored her.
 
He took his gun with him to go after Trayvon.

My mind's made up, don't bother me with the facts.

Your side is so anti-gun that you have no idea of what the law actually says.

What you are specifically missing in this case is that the law requires that your fear be reasonable. Would a reasonable man in the same situation feel the same fear?

Trayvon had EVERY reasonable reason to fear for his life. Zimmerman had none.

Having your head beaten against concrete is a reason to fear for your life.

He didn't have his head "beaten against concrete". That was another Zimmerman lie to make excuses for why he murdered Trayvon

The neighbor who was the closest saw Martin on top of Z with Z's head and on the sidewalk and M hitting him with his head there. He told them to stop and ran in to call 911.

WRONG!

Good testified that he did not see Martin banging Zimmerman's head on the concrete.

He didn't even testify definitively that it was (at any point) Trayvon on top and Zimmerman on the bottom, only that it was his impression that the person on the bottom at that particular moment had lighter skin and red in his clothing.

But even IF Trayvon managed to get the upper hand in the fight for a minute before he was murdered, Trayvon still had every right to defend himself against the creepy violent asshole who was pursuing him.

And, to your point, the witness very clearly testified that he did NOT see Trayvon bashing Zimmerman's head. Moreover, the EMT testified that she treated Zimmerman's minor scrapes for "about 5 minutes"... in other words, very minor and not at all indicative of any sort of life-threatening situation.

And again, even IF the violent asshole was getting beaten, Trayvon is the one with every right to defend himself. And, clearly, it was TRAYVON'S life at risk... not the violent thug Zimmerman
 
Zimmerman is the biggest fucking liar of all but you act like his every word is a proven fact.

You aren't this stupid, which leaves me to believe you really are this racist.

I think she made up the worry about Z being a rapist, but I do hope that she was the one who said to M you are safe, don't go back after him and M ignored her.

The bolded is you making up stuff
 
He took his gun with him to go after Trayvon.

My mind's made up, don't bother me with the facts.

Your side is so anti-gun that you have no idea of what the law actually says.

What you are specifically missing in this case is that the law requires that your fear be reasonable. Would a reasonable man in the same situation feel the same fear?

Trayvon had EVERY reasonable reason to fear for his life. Zimmerman had none.

Having your head beaten against concrete is a reason to fear for your life.

He didn't have his head "beaten against concrete". That was another Zimmerman lie to make excuses for why he murdered Trayvon

The neighbor who was the closest saw Martin on top of Z with Z's head and on the sidewalk and M hitting him with his head there. He told them to stop and ran in to call 911.

WRONG!

Good testified that he did not see Martin banging Zimmerman's head on the concrete.

He didn't even testify definitively that it was (at any point) Trayvon on top and Zimmerman on the bottom, only that it was his impression that the person on the bottom at that particular moment had lighter skin and red in his clothing.

But even IF Trayvon managed to get the upper hand in the fight for a minute before he was murdered, Trayvon still had every right to defend himself against the creepy violent asshole who was pursuing him.

And, to your point, the witness very clearly testified that he did NOT see Trayvon bashing Zimmerman's head. Moreover, the EMT testified that she treated Zimmerman's minor scrapes for "about 5 minutes"... in other words, very minor and not at all indicative of any sort of life-threatening situation.

And again, even IF the violent asshole was getting beaten, Trayvon is the one with every right to defend himself. And, clearly, it was TRAYVON'S life at risk... not the violent thug Zimmerman

The time that Martin's life was in danger was after he started punching Z, not before.

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I think she made up the worry about Z being a rapist, but I do hope that she was the one who said to M you are safe, don't go back after him and M ignored her.

The bolded is you making up stuff

And you saying in that Z chased M down is made up too in the same manner.
 
The time that Martin's life was in danger was after he started punching Z, not before.
Wrong.

Trayvon's life was in danger the minute a violent fuckwad named Zimmerman decided to take his gun and go after Trayvon. I don't think asshole Zimmerman intended to kill Trayvon that night. I think he intended to play cop/hero and *arrest* Trayvon for whatever fucked up fantasy Zimmerman assumed Trayvon was guilty of. But being a violent, fucked up piece of shit human being, he put Trayvon's life in danger by his actions, and he is 100% responsible for murdering Trayvon that night. He should have kept his violent ass in his truck like he was supposed to do.

I think she made up the worry about Z being a rapist, but I do hope that she was the one who said to M you are safe, don't go back after him and M ignored her.

The bolded is you making up stuff

And you saying in that Z chased M down is made up too in the same manner.

So you are now claiming Zimmerman stayed in his fucking truck like he was supposed to do?
 
Wrong.

Trayvon's life was in danger the minute a violent fuckwad named Zimmerman decided to take his gun and go after Trayvon. I don't think asshole Zimmerman intended to kill Trayvon that night. I think he intended to play cop/hero and *arrest* Trayvon for whatever fucked up fantasy Zimmerman assumed Trayvon was guilty of. But being a violent, fucked up piece of shit human being, he put Trayvon's life in danger by his actions, and he is 100% responsible for murdering Trayvon that night. He should have kept his violent ass in his truck like he was supposed to do.

I think she made up the worry about Z being a rapist, but I do hope that she was the one who said to M you are safe, don't go back after him and M ignored her.

The bolded is you making up stuff

And you saying in that Z chased M down is made up too in the same manner.

So you are now claiming Zimmerman stayed in his fucking truck like he was supposed to do?

His life was not in danger after Zimmerman left the car. Unless you want to make the argument that Z wanted suicide by cop.

No law that says you must stay in the car. The two reasons it's suggested is one to make sure you don't some other law, which he didn't. And the second reason is what happened here, the person you are reporting suspicious behavior turns around and assaults you.
 
Wrong.
Trayvon's life was in danger the minute a violent fuckwad named Zimmerman decided to take his gun and go after Trayvon. I don't think asshole Zimmerman intended to kill Trayvon that night. I think he intended to play cop/hero and *arrest* Trayvon for whatever fucked up fantasy Zimmerman assumed Trayvon was guilty of. But being a violent, fucked up piece of shit human being, he put Trayvon's life in danger by his actions, and he is 100% responsible for murdering Trayvon that night. He should have kept his violent ass in his truck like he was supposed to do.

I think she made up the worry about Z being a rapist, but I do hope that she was the one who said to M you are safe, don't go back after him and M ignored her.

The bolded is you making up stuff

And you saying in that Z chased M down is made up too in the same manner.

So you are now claiming Zimmerman stayed in his fucking truck like he was supposed to do?

His life was not in danger after Zimmerman left the car. Unless you want to make the argument that Z wanted suicide by cop.

No law that says you must stay in the car. The two reasons it's suggested is one to make sure you don't some other law, which he didn't.

Assault

At Common Law, an intentional act by one person that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent harmful or offensive contact.

An assault is carried out by a threat of bodily harm coupled with an apparent, present ability to cause the harm. It is both a crime and a tort and, therefore, may result in either criminal or civil liability. Generally, the common law definition is the same in criminal and Tort Law. There is, however, an additional Criminal Law category of assault consisting of an attempted but unsuccessful Battery.

Statutory definitions of assault in the various jurisdictions throughout the United States are not substantially different from the common-law definition.

Reckless Endangerment

the crime recognized in some jurisdictions of behaving indifferently to the consequences in such a way as to create a substantial risk of serious physical injury or death to another person.

Criminal Negligence

The failure to use reasonable care to avoid consequences that threaten or harm the safety of the public and that are the foreseeable outcome of acting in a particular manner.

Criminal negligence is a statutory offense that arises primarily in situations involving the death of an innocent party as a result of the operation of a motor vehicle by a person who is under the influence of Drugs and Narcotics or alcohol. Most statutes define such conduct as criminally negligent Homicide. Unlike the tort of Negligence, in which the party who acted wrongfully is liable for damages to the injured party, a person who is convicted of criminal negligence is subject to a fine, imprisonment, or both, because of the status of the conduct as a crime.

<link>


And the second reason is what happened here, the person you are reporting suspicious behavior turns around and assaults you are pursing stands his ground against the creepy stranger assaulting him (you) and fights for his life.

FIFY.

Zimmerman created the entire conflict out of ill will and foul temper. He set out to make sure Martin didn't get away and by god, that's what he did.

For some reason you have chosen to defend this thug. Since you have a history of posting your disdain for thugs in general I have to conclude you are basing your decision on the color of Zimmerman's skin rather than the content of his character.

He's a thug, coloradoatheist. Why do you give him every benefit of the doubt while slandering his victim with unfair, inaccurate, and utterly bullshit allegations?

BTW, where are you getting these stories? Where did you hear that someone told Martin not to go back but he did anyway?
 
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He took his gun with him to go after Trayvon.

My mind's made up, don't bother me with the facts.

Your side is so anti-gun that you have no idea of what the law actually says.

What you are specifically missing in this case is that the law requires that your fear be reasonable. Would a reasonable man in the same situation feel the same fear?

Trayvon had EVERY reasonable reason to fear for his life. Zimmerman had none.

Having your head beaten against concrete is a reason to fear for your life.

He didn't have his head "beaten against concrete". That was another Zimmerman lie to make excuses for why he murdered Trayvon

The neighbor who was the closest saw Martin on top of Z with Z's head and on the sidewalk and M hitting him with his head there. He told them to stop and ran in to call 911.

If this is even true, Martin was defending himself from a guy who stalked after him for no reason and then likely pulled a gun on him. Are you for the idea of self-defense or aren't you?
 
His life was not in danger after Zimmerman left the car.
Yes it was. Zimmerman had every intention to stop Trayvon, as his words on the 911 tape make abundantly clear. He may not have intended to murder Trayvon, but when a violent thug takes his gun and goes after an innocent young man, he is putting that young man's life in danger. And Trayvon's life was OBVIOUSLY in danger because he wound up DEAD.

Unless you want to make the argument that Z wanted suicide by cop.
???

No law that says you must stay in the car.
No, but his "neighborhood watch" training did, and the 911 responder did, and normal common sense does.

The two reasons it's suggested is one to make sure you don't some other law, which he didn't
. ???

And the second reason is what happened here, the person you are reporting suspicious behavior turns around and assaults you.
WRONG!!!!! Fuck this lie - I am so fucking sick of Zimmerman's self-serving lies being repeated over and over.

Even if you THINK this is what happened, there is ZERO evidence to support your opinion, so stop pretending otherwise.
 
Yes it was. Zimmerman had every intention to stop Trayvon, as his words on the 911 tape make abundantly clear. He may not have intended to murder Trayvon, but when a violent thug takes his gun and goes after an innocent young man, he is putting that young man's life in danger. And Trayvon's life was OBVIOUSLY in danger because he wound up DEAD.

There is a huge difference in wanting to make sure that the police officers had a chance to question Martin about his actions compared to being violent. Violence was only his last resort. He tried calling the cops to get them to come over and one of the problems was that he wasn't physical back and tried to stay out of the fight instead of fighting back. Martin's life only became in danger after he started hitting Zimmerman.

Unless you want to make the argument that Z wanted suicide by cop.???

You want to know a good way to get yourself killed. Pull a gun on someone and point it at them when a police officer is on his way. It's a very stupid thing to do when all Zimmerman had to do was make sure Martin stayed near for a few more minutes.

No, but his "neighborhood watch" training did, and the 911 responder did, and normal common sense does.

And that reason why is this situation, the person you are trying to follow turns around and assaults you.

The two reasons it's suggested is one to make sure you don't some other law, which he didn't ???
Someone could break other laws while helping a cop such as trespassing, speeding, and other things and a normal civilian would get charged with those crimes even if they were helping the cops do there job.

Fuck this lie - I am so fucking sick of Zimmerman's self-serving lies being repeated over and over.

Even if you THINK this is what happened, there is ZERO evidence to support your opinion, so stop pretending otherwise.

Actually all the evidence does point this way, the other side has to provide weird supposition that it wasn't. Such as Zimmerman had to have grabbed Martin or that Martin decided to walk about toward his chaser for no reason.
 
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