Trump: "...bring back the death penalty!"

[Gun Nut]

Same concept that if in your lifetime you witnessed multiple "hangings", you would be more deterred than just by hearing about someone somewhere being hanged.

Well, aside from the complete lack of any evidence of the deterrent effect of public executions, of course.

Hell, Public Executions used to be prime pick-pocket events in England, back when picking pockets was a hanging offense.

I believe the proper response here is "Citation Needed".

 

[RavenSky]

Normally I would plead the case that the death penalty is a cruel and barbaric anachronism, and lament that in fact it has never left.
But hearing INDIVIDUAL-1 call for its return makes me think it would suit him very well.

Personally, I'm against the death penalty unless 1) the person presents an immediate danger to others and 2) it can be proved without all doubt the person is guilty. It's been established that the US has executed innocent people and I think that is one of the worst things a nation could ever do to one of its citizens.

I actually agree with you on this point, though I don't know that it could be realistically implemented so I will have to stay firmly on the "no death penalty" for anyone side of the argument.

IF our courts could be infallible enough to enact a death penalty that met your requirements, the Pittsburgh shooter would seem to fit the bill, though.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Hell, Public Executions used to be prime pick-pocket events in England, back when picking pockets was a hanging offense.

I believe the proper response here is "Citation Needed".

The anecdote is less important than the fact that 'when executions were public... crimes with the punishment of public execution were still committed'.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Same concept that if in your lifetime you witnessed multiple "hangings", you would be more deterred than just by hearing about someone somewhere being hanged.

Well, aside from the complete lack of any evidence of the deterrent effect of public executions, of course.

You snipped out the context of what was someone else's social thought experiment about heads exploding versus dying quietly in a bed.

The context doesn't change the fact that the method isn't a useful one for deterring the commission of crimes.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

You snipped out the context of what was someone else's social thought experiment about heads exploding versus dying quietly in a bed.

The context doesn't change the fact that the method isn't a useful one for deterring the commission of crimes.

Agreed and this data tends to backup that assertion: https://www.amnestyusa.org/issues/d...nalty-facts/the-death-penalty-and-deterrence/

"The threat of execution at some future date is unlikely to enter the minds of those acting under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol, those who are in the grip of fear or rage, those who are panicking while committing another crime (such as a robbery), or those who suffer from mental illness or mental retardation and do not fully understand the gravity of their crime."

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Well, I rescind my argument. The data clearly shows that the red line of the murder rate in states with a death penalty is going down. The only logical assumption to make is that it's going down because of the deterrent effect of executions for murder.

 

[Gun Nut]

You snipped out the context of what was someone else's social thought experiment about heads exploding versus dying quietly in a bed.

The context doesn't change the fact that the method isn't a useful one for deterring the commission of crimes.

Agreed and this data tends to backup that assertion: https://www.amnestyusa.org/issues/d...nalty-facts/the-death-penalty-and-deterrence/
View attachment 18509
"The threat of execution at some future date is unlikely to enter the minds of those acting under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol, those who are in the grip of fear or rage, those who are panicking while committing another crime (such as a robbery), or those who suffer from mental illness or mental retardation and do not fully understand the gravity of their crime."

Absent from this chart is anything useful. Like, the date the death penalty for a specific state, and the specific data for that state, was implemented. So, if that red data series was for one state, and that one state had the death penalty enacted in 1993, then it perfectly well shows the deterrent effect.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

Agreed and this data tends to backup that assertion: https://www.amnestyusa.org/issues/d...nalty-facts/the-death-penalty-and-deterrence/
View attachment 18509
"The threat of execution at some future date is unlikely to enter the minds of those acting under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol, those who are in the grip of fear or rage, those who are panicking while committing another crime (such as a robbery), or those who suffer from mental illness or mental retardation and do not fully understand the gravity of their crime."

Absent from this chart is anything useful. Like, the date the death penalty for a specific state, and the specific data for that state, was implemented. So, if that red data series was for one state, and that one state had the death penalty enacted in 1993, then it perfectly well shows the deterrent effect.

You are free to ignore the data. God Bless America!

The bottom line for me is that taking a citizen's life is the harshest most authoritarian thing a nation can do. The most egregious thing a nation can do is take the life of an innocent citizen. Executing someone like Bower's, Timothy McVeigh, Saddam Hussein or anyone else who is 100% guilty is not a problem for me. Same goes for those so murderously insane they are a danger to anyone around them. It's like putting down a rabid dog. For others, I'm less sure and am against the death penalty in those cases.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Agreed and this data tends to backup that assertion: https://www.amnestyusa.org/issues/d...nalty-facts/the-death-penalty-and-deterrence/
View attachment 18509
"The threat of execution at some future date is unlikely to enter the minds of those acting under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol, those who are in the grip of fear or rage, those who are panicking while committing another crime (such as a robbery), or those who suffer from mental illness or mental retardation and do not fully understand the gravity of their crime."

Absent from this chart is anything useful. Like, the date the death penalty for a specific state, and the specific data for that state, was implemented. So, if that red data series was for one state, and that one state had the death penalty enacted in 1993, then it perfectly well shows the deterrent effect.

Here is more data you can feel free to ignore. I think what really weakens the death penalty effectiveness in deterrence of a crime is that you see a notable drop in the murder rate in the 90s for both death penalty and non-death penalty states. This implies that there is a much larger stress on causes of murder than merely the death penalty.

 

[Gun Nut]

Agreed and this data tends to backup that assertion: https://www.amnestyusa.org/issues/d...nalty-facts/the-death-penalty-and-deterrence/
View attachment 18509
"The threat of execution at some future date is unlikely to enter the minds of those acting under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol, those who are in the grip of fear or rage, those who are panicking while committing another crime (such as a robbery), or those who suffer from mental illness or mental retardation and do not fully understand the gravity of their crime."

Absent from this chart is anything useful. Like, the date the death penalty for a specific state, and the specific data for that state, was implemented. So, if that red data series was for one state, and that one state had the death penalty enacted in 1993, then it perfectly well shows the deterrent effect.

Here is more data you can feel free to ignore. I think what really weakens the death penalty effectiveness in deterrence of a crime is that you see a notable drop in the murder rate in the 90s for both death penalty and non-death penalty states. This implies that there is a much larger stress on causes of murder than merely the death penalty.

Yes. It may. The chart does not attempt to show correlation between pre / post death penalty behavior. It shows correlation between "already death penalty enabled" states and "not already death penalty states". This does imply a possible additional variable... imagine that. More than one variable... hmm.. I guess we can ignore the topic at hand when another variable exists to deflect to.

- - - Updated - - -

Agreed and this data tends to backup that assertion: https://www.amnestyusa.org/issues/d...nalty-facts/the-death-penalty-and-deterrence/
View attachment 18509
"The threat of execution at some future date is unlikely to enter the minds of those acting under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol, those who are in the grip of fear or rage, those who are panicking while committing another crime (such as a robbery), or those who suffer from mental illness or mental retardation and do not fully understand the gravity of their crime."

Absent from this chart is anything useful. Like, the date the death penalty for a specific state, and the specific data for that state, was implemented. So, if that red data series was for one state, and that one state had the death penalty enacted in 1993, then it perfectly well shows the deterrent effect.

You are free to ignore the data. God Bless America!

The bottom line for me is that taking a citizen's life is the harshest most authoritarian thing a nation can do. The most egregious thing a nation can do is take the life of an innocent citizen. Executing someone like Bower's, Timothy McVeigh, Saddam Hussein or anyone else who is 100% guilty is not a problem for me. Same goes for those so murderously insane they are a danger to anyone around them. It's like putting down a rabid dog. For others, I'm less sure and am against the death penalty in those cases.

What does this data say about implementing death penalties? What does it say about "public execution"? What does it say about reciprocity between states? What does it say about proximity of states to others with differing penalties?

Nothing.

It is hard to "ignore" what is not even there.