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Trump - Military Strike on Iran

Why can't Saudi Arabia attack Iran themselves? Why should we shed blood and treasure for them?
Because it is in US national interest not to allow Iran to do whatever it wants to do in that part of the world.
Also, Saudi Arabia is our ally. If they are attacked, as they are by Iran through their proxies the Houthies, we should defend them.
Yemen war: Civilian killed in Houthi attack on Saudi airport

I think Iranian ultimate plan is to occupy Saudi oil fields. Hence their involvement in Yemen. They want a beachhead on the Arabian peninsula.
 
This is not war - yet. This is about sending a clear unequivocal message without escalating the stakes. Killing Iranis over a piece of equipment would be considered escalating the stakes.

A war between US and Iran would be much more costly to Iran than US, even though it would be costly to US (I have no illusions about that). Which is why Iran would want to avoid a full-blown war at this stage. They are perfectly fine in engaging in proxy wars and occasional attacks on tankers and drones as long as these acts of aggression remain unanswered.
I think being too timid now increases the chances of a full-blown war. Think Chamberlain vs. Hitler. We need a Churchill. The problem with Trump is that he talks like Churchill but acts like Chamberlain.

Hitting them with a solid message now just might cause them to see that we mean business and that they should back the fuck off.
 
This send them a message mentality is exactly how the whole world blunders into war.
Not responding decisively to an expansionist, fascist power is how the World blundered into WWII. Hitler could have been stopped easily when he re-militarized the Rhineland. Dilly-dallying until he occupied all of Czechoslovakia allowed Nazi Germany to become stronger and necessitated a long and costly war.

Iran is sending a message to us with various attacks and proxy attacks. We send another message back. Why do we need to start sending messages?
Becuase we do not want the Ayatollah to have the upper hand. Which he has now - he attacked the tankers, he downed our drone, he killed a civilian in a Saudi airport. All without response.

Why did we need to pull out of the accord in the first place?
It was a rotten deal that should never have been entered in the first place. It only put restrictions on Iranian nuclear program for 15 years and in turn it gave Iranians all they wanted - including $400 million in cash. It completely ignored all the other bad things Iran is doing from missile development to meddling in Syria, Lebanon and Yemen.

Unilaterally withdrawing from the agreement was problematic, sure, but let's not pretend the accord was a good deal.
Also, it was not a treaty and it never would have been ratified by the Senate in the first place. Anything a president can impose by executive order the next president can rescind by executive order.

Did he not think that by sending that message, they'd respond like they have? And then push us into a corner?

What Iran did is not acceptable. I do not desire war, but the best way to prevent war is to show strength early. Not to project weakness by letting them get away with aggression.

But it’s bleeding us dry while the real threat (China and Russia) just bides their time. They won’t need to go to war against us to get what they want. We'll be too weak to put up any resistance.

So what do you propose we do vis-a-vis Iran?
 
Why can't Saudi Arabia attack Iran themselves? Why should we shed blood and treasure for them?
Because it is in US national interest not to allow Iran to do whatever it wants to do in that part of the world.
Also, Saudi Arabia is our ally. If they are attacked, as they are by Iran through their proxies the Houthies, we should defend them.
Yemen war: Civilian killed in Houthi attack on Saudi airport

I think Iranian ultimate plan is to occupy Saudi oil fields. Hence their involvement in Yemen. They want a beachhead on the Arabian peninsula.

That's Saudi/Iran business, not ours. I question the idea that we should maintain allegiance with Saudi Arabia.
 
Why can't Saudi Arabia attack Iran themselves? Why should we shed blood and treasure for them?
Because it is in US national interest not to allow Iran to do whatever it wants to do in that part of the world.
Also, Saudi Arabia is our ally. If they are attacked, as they are by Iran through their proxies the Houthies, we should defend them.
Yemen war: Civilian killed in Houthi attack on Saudi airport

I think Iranian ultimate plan is to occupy Saudi oil fields. Hence their involvement in Yemen. They want a beachhead on the Arabian peninsula.

But why can't the Saudis fight their own wars and let us help them? Why are we doing the fighting and paying the bills? Wasn't Trumpo's promise to get us out of all this foreign shit? Why isn't he hammering on the Saudis to get their act together and man-up? Are you basically saying that we are the world's policeman?
 
Why can't Saudi Arabia attack Iran themselves? Why should we shed blood and treasure for them?
Because it is in US national interest not to allow Iran to do whatever it wants to do in that part of the world.
Also, Saudi Arabia is our ally. If they are attacked, as they are by Iran through their proxies the Houthies, we should defend them.
Yemen war: Civilian killed in Houthi attack on Saudi airport

I think Iranian ultimate plan is to occupy Saudi oil fields. Hence their involvement in Yemen. They want a beachhead on the Arabian peninsula.

That's Saudi/Iran business, not ours. I question the idea that we should maintain allegiance with Saudi Arabia.

It's pretty simple, actually.

You've got two Middle Eastern countries. Both repressive dictatorships. Both engage in proxy wars. Both support/export a virulent brand of radical Islam. Both are situated atop large oil reserves.

One of them said "no America, we won't be your bitch, and you can't have our oil." The other one said "whatever you want, America...can we buy some of those cool fighter jets, too?"
 
That's Saudi/Iran business, not ours. I question the idea that we should maintain allegiance with Saudi Arabia.

It's pretty simple, actually.

You've got two Middle Eastern countries. Both repressive dictatorships. Both engage in proxy wars. Both support/export a virulent brand of radical Islam. Both are situated atop large oil reserves.

One of them said "no America, we won't be your bitch, and you can't have our oil." The other one said "whatever you want, America...can we buy some of those cool fighter jets, too?"

I agree that's it but would still like to hear Derec's take. Proxy wars are nothing new. Hell, the American revolution was a proxy war, we got oodles of cash and support from France.

I think the bigger issue is just as you say but involves the loss of American influence globally. Iraq was an example of intervening on behalf of big oil because Hussein was going to favor China primarily. The Saudis would do the same thing if the US wasn't willing to be the bitch.

And there's the issue of the US dollar. It's really shit without all that military influence globally.

Still, I'd like to hear Derec's take.
 
That's Saudi/Iran business, not ours. I question the idea that we should maintain allegiance with Saudi Arabia.

It's pretty simple, actually.

You've got two Middle Eastern countries. Both repressive dictatorships. Both engage in proxy wars. Both support/export a virulent brand of radical Islam. Both are situated atop large oil reserves.

One of them said "no America, we won't be your bitch, and you can't have our oil." The other one said "whatever you want, America...can we buy some of those cool fighter jets, too?"

Actually, I'd say that Saudi's are doing far more to export radical Islam across the world via their promoting Wahhabism. Yes, Iran pushes its power to other Shiite nations, or non-Sunni nations. And maybe if the west hadn't spent the last 40 some years sanctioning Iran, they possibly could do something similar...

https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/about-our-creepy-saudi-friends
Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates have attacked their neighbor, Qatar, for supposedly supporting terrorism. They pretend to be firefighters, but spent years as arsonists. Over the years the Saudis, in particular, financed and staffed terrorist groups, including al-Qaeda, which staged the 9/11 attacks. Riyadh’s record has since improved, but only under strong U.S. pressure.
<snip>
The KSA spends as much as $4 billion annually promoting its uniquely intolerant brand of Salafist Islamic thought, aimed at the “purification” of the faith known as Wahhabism. By enforcing this rigidly intolerant theology the KSA has acted like a housebroken version of the Islamic State. People have been similarly oppressed and brutalized, but with a veneer of legality. In contrast, ISIS reflects, argued Princeton’s Bernard Haykel, “a kind of untamed Wahhabism.”
<snip>
In recent years the Saudi royals have spent $3 to $4 billion a year, roughly $100 billion cumulatively, on educational fellowships and scholarships, Islamic clergy and scholars, academics and journalists, construction projects — madrassahs, mosques, universities, and Islamic centers — operating funds, and school materials. Thus, while Wahhabism is a minority view even within Sunni Islam, it accounts for the vast majority of outside funding. Abdurrahman Wahid, a moderate Muslim who once served as Indonesia’s president and headed the Islamic organization Nahdlatal Ulama, said that “Wahhabi/Salafi ideology has made substantial inroads throughout the Muslim world” because of the Saudis’ wealth.
 
House votes to repeal Authorization for Use of Military Force, while Trump reportedly urges representatives to tone down rhetoric on Iran
... However, no Republicans voted for the bill and it appears unlikely it will get past the Senate. ...

Still, there is sentiment on the Republican side that the AUMF grants too much power to the President. Might be a good issue in the election. I hope it's brought up by some of the candidates at the debates. Would definitely make life difficult for McConnell.
 
Actually, I'd say that Saudi's are doing far more to export radical Islam across the world via their promoting Wahhabism. Yes, Iran pushes its power to other Shiite nations, or non-Sunni nations. And maybe if the west hadn't spent the last 40 some years sanctioning Iran, they possibly could do something similar...

https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/about-our-creepy-saudi-friends
Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates have attacked their neighbor, Qatar, for supposedly supporting terrorism. They pretend to be firefighters, but spent years as arsonists. Over the years the Saudis, in particular, financed and staffed terrorist groups, including al-Qaeda, which staged the 9/11 attacks. Riyadh’s record has since improved, but only under strong U.S. pressure.
<snip>
The KSA spends as much as $4 billion annually promoting its uniquely intolerant brand of Salafist Islamic thought, aimed at the “purification” of the faith known as Wahhabism. By enforcing this rigidly intolerant theology the KSA has acted like a housebroken version of the Islamic State. People have been similarly oppressed and brutalized, but with a veneer of legality. In contrast, ISIS reflects, argued Princeton’s Bernard Haykel, “a kind of untamed Wahhabism.”
<snip>
In recent years the Saudi royals have spent $3 to $4 billion a year, roughly $100 billion cumulatively, on educational fellowships and scholarships, Islamic clergy and scholars, academics and journalists, construction projects — madrassahs, mosques, universities, and Islamic centers — operating funds, and school materials. Thus, while Wahhabism is a minority view even within Sunni Islam, it accounts for the vast majority of outside funding. Abdurrahman Wahid, a moderate Muslim who once served as Indonesia’s president and headed the Islamic organization Nahdlatal Ulama, said that “Wahhabi/Salafi ideology has made substantial inroads throughout the Muslim world” because of the Saudis’ wealth.
Oh here we go again with 'it was a bunch of Saudis" that enacted the 9/11 attack. Can't you just let us have our Iran Rage boners?
 
Why can't Saudi Arabia attack Iran themselves? Why should we shed blood and treasure for them?
Because it is in US national interest not to allow Iran to do whatever it wants to do in that part of the world.
Also, Saudi Arabia is our ally. If they are attacked, as they are by Iran through their proxies the Houthies, we should defend them.
Yemen war: Civilian killed in Houthi attack on Saudi airport

I think Iranian ultimate plan is to occupy Saudi oil fields. Hence their involvement in Yemen. They want a beachhead on the Arabian peninsula.

But why can't the Saudis fight their own wars and let us help them? Why are we doing the fighting and paying the bills? Wasn't Trumpo's promise to get us out of all this foreign shit? Why isn't he hammering on the Saudis to get their act together and man-up? Are you basically saying that we are the world's policeman?
The Saudis are busy fighting their proxy war with Iran in Yemen. They don't have the military capability to do both. I suspect their military strength is much smaller than Iran's, so it would be unwise for Saudi Arabia to go alone directly against Iran.

Those are not good reasons for the USA to attack Iran.
 
But why can't the Saudis fight their own wars and let us help them? Why are we doing the fighting and paying the bills? Wasn't Trumpo's promise to get us out of all this foreign shit? Why isn't he hammering on the Saudis to get their act together and man-up? Are you basically saying that we are the world's policeman?
The Saudis are busy fighting their proxy war with Iran in Yemen. They don't have the military capability to do both. I suspect their military strength is much smaller than Iran's, so it would be unwise for Saudi Arabia to go alone directly against Iran.

Those are not good reasons for the USA to attack Iran.

But the Saudis are rich. They can buy all the military they need. They should be paying us to fight their war but we're giving them aid and support so there must be a big invisible dog in the fight.

I agree that there are no good reasons for the US to attack Iran but that's not the point. The issue is why we're doing Saudi Arabia's fighting, attack or not. What are the Saudis anteing up? If we don't need their oil, which we don't, we are simply being the world's policeman, and defending a totalitarian theocracy because at one time we did need their oil? Is it so they buy our military hardware?

So what is Derec's argument?
 
Actually, I'd say that Saudi's are doing far more to export radical Islam across the world via their promoting Wahhabism. Yes, Iran pushes its power to other Shiite nations, or non-Sunni nations. And maybe if the west hadn't spent the last 40 some years sanctioning Iran, they possibly could do something similar...

https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/about-our-creepy-saudi-friends
Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates have attacked their neighbor, Qatar, for supposedly supporting terrorism. They pretend to be firefighters, but spent years as arsonists. Over the years the Saudis, in particular, financed and staffed terrorist groups, including al-Qaeda, which staged the 9/11 attacks. Riyadh’s record has since improved, but only under strong U.S. pressure.
<snip>
The KSA spends as much as $4 billion annually promoting its uniquely intolerant brand of Salafist Islamic thought, aimed at the “purification” of the faith known as Wahhabism. By enforcing this rigidly intolerant theology the KSA has acted like a housebroken version of the Islamic State. People have been similarly oppressed and brutalized, but with a veneer of legality. In contrast, ISIS reflects, argued Princeton’s Bernard Haykel, “a kind of untamed Wahhabism.”
<snip>
In recent years the Saudi royals have spent $3 to $4 billion a year, roughly $100 billion cumulatively, on educational fellowships and scholarships, Islamic clergy and scholars, academics and journalists, construction projects — madrassahs, mosques, universities, and Islamic centers — operating funds, and school materials. Thus, while Wahhabism is a minority view even within Sunni Islam, it accounts for the vast majority of outside funding. Abdurrahman Wahid, a moderate Muslim who once served as Indonesia’s president and headed the Islamic organization Nahdlatal Ulama, said that “Wahhabi/Salafi ideology has made substantial inroads throughout the Muslim world” because of the Saudis’ wealth.
Oh here we go again with 'it was a bunch of Saudis" that enacted the 9/11 attack. Can't you just let us have our Iran Rage boners?

LOL...I know you are mostly poking fun. But it does really amaze me the alt-right/neocon fears of "the Islamists are coming; the Islamists are coming". Then they go back in their gas guzzling monster pickup to help SA fund the spread of Wahhabi Islamic beliefs. They support Repug leadership who continually kiss SA ass as they are US 'allies'. Sure the Dums also generally kiss SA ass. However, without the constant fear mongering by the right, I think the Dums really wouldn't be quite so ready to kiss ass.... People hearing without listening.
 
While I consider ordering and then rescinding the attack order to be very bad, at least the explanation he gives is coherent; it would be disproportionate to make an attack that would cause many deaths over a drone.

I am sure that Uncle Vlad offered him that excuse when he instructed Cheato not to mess with his pal.
I doubt it. Putin would welcome the violence. Could sell more planes that way. All we know is that we have no idea who started what in DC and how it stopped... and Trump is lying.

There's a bigger factor here. Iran is trying to mess with oil exports from the gulf. Less Arab oil raises the demand for Soviet oil.
 
I doubt it. Putin would welcome the violence. Could sell more planes that way. All we know is that we have no idea who started what in DC and how it stopped... and Trump is lying.

There's a bigger factor here. Iran is trying to mess with oil exports from the gulf. Less Arab oil raises the demand for Soviet oil.

Aren't we the world's biggest producer? Let the good times roll!
 
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