Trump - Military Strike on Iran

[laughing dog]

Trump jumped the gun, but ultimately made the right call IMO when he found out the proposed action would cost lives. The shooting down of an unmanned drone is a provocation but it should be met with an appropriate and proportionate response, lest an unwanted escalation ensues.

What would be such a response?

Without knowing what is available, I cannot possibly answer. But killing people over a piece of equipment is not appropriate or proportionate.

 

[steve_bank]

Puppet master implies pulling strings not direct control.

I am no psychologist, but Trump obviously gets passive and even sheepish with strong dicators.

From the bios his father was overbearing and abusive. He brow beat trump. Is he lokking for father figures?

Putin is a trained experienced spook. He knows how to frame and time remarks he knows will have effect. I remember when GWB met with Putin. Putin had a large visible cross around his neck. Knowing GWBs faith do you think that was a coincidence? And GWB famously said he looked into Putin's eyes and his soul and saw a good man' or something close.

I doubt Putin makes any global remarks without thinking trough impact and who he is speaking to.

Trump thinks he is a master manipulator. Compared to NK, China, and Russia he is an amateur. He obviously takes queues from Putin and likes to feel like he is a buddy. I think it is as simple as that. Trump needs to belong.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Trump thinks he is a master manipulator. Compared to NK, China, and Russia he is an amateur. He obviously takes queues from Putin and likes to feel like he is a buddy. I think it is as simple as that. Trump needs to belong.

This is very true. One needn't be a conspiracy theorist to see this in Trumpo's behavior.

And it's good to be reminded that Trumpo wants to expand his brand, build his towers everywhere and make money. He doesn't care how or where the money comes from. He just wants more and more "fuck-you" money.

 

[steve_bank]

Trump thinks he is a master manipulator. Compared to NK, China, and Russia he is an amateur. He obviously takes queues from Putin and likes to feel like he is a buddy. I think it is as simple as that. Trump needs to belong.

This is very true. One needn't be a conspiracy theorist to see this in Trumpo's behavior.

And it's good to be reminded that Trumpo wants to expand his brand, build his towers everywhere and make money. He doesn't care how or where the money comes from. He just wants more and more "fuck-you" money.

It is not my original analysis, same conclusion from most of the pundits. It is pretty clear from what has come out from associates his campaign was a publicity stunt. He never expected to win. It was all about enhancing his brand.

We see it in his waffling. he says something and tests responses. If it is ok he goes with it, if not he changes. Putin says its bad and it probably had an impact on Trump.

It is almost Shakespearian. A man in power trapped by his own shortcomings self destructing. ' A golf cart, a golf cart...my kingdom for a golf cart!'

The scary thing pointed out from the start is what happens if he faces a real crisis. China fires on our Navy in international waters. Russia invades a NATO Baltic state.

The drone incident says he will not perform well.

 

[Keith&Co.]

That's when it stops being multiple choice and goes to a guided practical.
Instead of asking him to choose from options, you say, 'Mr. President, we're going to go with option B, unless you have a better idea? No? Okay, the CIC picked B."
We can only hope whoevrr takes charge was actually appointed, vetted, rather than just 'the acting' whatever.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Okay, sorry I blasphemed your true belief in this conspiracy theory.

No, you, once again, attempted to use derision in place of counter-argument.

 

[JohnG]

Did you take the birthers seriously? No, you didn't. Neither did I. You gave them the derision they deserved. So did I. I take this conspiracy theory just as seriously.

Flat Earthers, Moon Landing Hoaxers, Birthers, and Putin Controls Trump fools all deserve the same contempt. You don't argue against them, although you do occasionally use them as rhetorical target practice.

You have it arse-backwards. Conspiracy theories are not wrong because they are ridiculous; They are ridiculous because they are wrong.

The 'demonstrate them to be wrong' bit is essential - if you skip it, you will end up ridiculing things that are actually true.

Lots of true statements sound ridiculous. A single photon passes through both of two slits, unless you check to see which one it went through. It sounds far fetched; But it's true. The solid rock beneath our feet is in constant motion, and continents drift around on the surface of the Earth, occasionally crashing together or splitting apart. That was considered ludicrous when it was first suggested; But it's known to be factually correct.

The Earth is easily shown not to be flat. The evidence for the moon landings is overwhelming. The evidence that Obama was born in the USA and not in Kenya is compelling. We can laugh at the fools who disregard the evidence, because we have plenty of evidence to show that they are wrong; And because their counter evidence is laughably weak.

So, what's your evidence that makes it laughable that Trump might have been compromised by the Russians? Is it that you can show that the Russians don't attempt to compromise western businessmen? That Trump hasn't ever been in a situation where that could have occurred? That all US Presidents are superheroic figures with invincible integrity?

I am not sure that Trump has been compromised by the Russians; But I am sure that there's inadequate grounds to dismiss the possibility out of hand - it's not in the same 'easily disproven' category as the idea that 9-11 was an inside job, or that alien abductions are a regular event that is covered up by the authorities. And pretending that it is, to avoid having to put in the effort to find evidence, is intellectually lazy.

There are dozens of detailed and well evidenced debunkings available for the idea that the Earth is flat. As we both agree that it isn't, we can skip the part where you find and show us the evidence to support your position. But you are being intellectually dishonest if you declare that a question that is not yet resolved is in the same category, in order to avoid providing evidence for your claims.

I often hold this presidency up as an example of what a real "conspiracy" looks like. Oodles of leakers and the press basically knew everything that was going on from the get-go. A total shit show.

 

[Elixir]

The 'demonstrate them to be wrong' bit is essential - if you skip it, you will end up ridiculing things that are actually true.

So true...
But remember - these are the same folks who dismiss first hand accounts from 15+ women because... some people believe ORANGE MAN BAD.

One of them dismisses people who say Putin controls Trump, even though
we all know that Putin knew from the start that Trump was lying about Trump Tower Moscow.
So ... we know that Putin has always had some leverage over Cheato, and the only real question is "how much?". And there are other probable lies, possible tapes (which are denied with such uncalled-for stridency that their existence is all but confirmed), financial levers etc, and Pootey might not be the only one with his hand up Trump's ass.
Anyone with the slightest modicum of ability to judge character who has observed Trump for more than 20 seconds, should know that he's a unhinged, dishonest, stupid, and utterly corrupt. Being kompromatted just goes with the territory.

 

[Derec]

Without knowing what is available, I cannot possibly answer. But killing people over a piece of equipment is not appropriate or proportionate.

That's not how warfare works. It's not about carefully tabulating the damage and then being sure you don't afflict any more damage on your enemy.

Trump should have hit Iran to show that US means business. And US should then also demand that Iran stop using Hezbollah, Houthis etc. for the IRGC external operations like attacking targets in Saudi Arabia.
A drone attack at a Saudi Arabia airport killed one person and wounded seven people

 

[steve_bank]

The problem is people like Bolton who want to be part of something like WWII.

It was sanctions on Japan over Japan in China that led to Pearl harbor.

We had overwhelming military superiority in Vietnam and never donated over a population commited to oust all foreigners.

We are still in Afghanistan and Iraq. both situations are not stable. We keep trying to make people look like us who do not want it.

War for us is becoming like college football.

Attacking Iran could lead to ar worse than ISIS and the caliphate. It would bring in again anti American fighters from around the word.

We see what it takes in Syria. We 'won', at the expense of a devastated Syria. Iran will not roll over like Iraq did.

 

[ZiprHead]

Without knowing what is available, I cannot possibly answer. But killing people over a piece of equipment is not appropriate or proportionate.

That's not how warfare works. It's not about carefully tabulating the damage and then being sure you don't afflict any more damage on your enemy.

Trump should have hit Iran to show that US means business. And US should then also demand that Iran stop using Hezbollah, Houthis etc. for the IRGC external operations like attacking targets in Saudi Arabia.
A drone attack at a Saudi Arabia airport killed one person and wounded seven people

Why can't Saudi Arabia attack Iran themselves? Why should we shed blood and treasure for them?

 

[laughing dog]

Without knowing what is available, I cannot possibly answer. But killing people over a piece of equipment is not appropriate or proportionate.

That's not how warfare works. It's not about carefully tabulating the damage and then being sure you don't afflict any more damage on your enemy.

This is not war - yet. This is about sending a clear unequivocal message without escalating the stakes. Killing Iranis over a piece of equipment would be considered escalating the stakes.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The problem is people like Bolton who want to be part of something like WWII.

It was sanctions on Japan over Japan in China that led to Pearl harbor.

We had overwhelming military superiority in Vietnam and never donated over a population commited to oust all foreigners.

We are still in Afghanistan and Iraq. both situations are not stable. We keep trying to make people look like us who do not want it.

War for us is becoming like college football.

Attacking Iran could lead to ar worse than ISIS and the caliphate. It would bring in again anti American fighters from around the word.

We see what it takes in Syria. We 'won', at the expense of a devastated Syria. Iran will not roll over like Iraq did.

Derec insists if we "send a message" things will get all goody goody for American interests.

 

[SLD]

The problem is people like Bolton who want to be part of something like WWII.

It was sanctions on Japan over Japan in China that led to Pearl harbor.

We had overwhelming military superiority in Vietnam and never donated over a population commited to oust all foreigners.

We are still in Afghanistan and Iraq. both situations are not stable. We keep trying to make people look like us who do not want it.

War for us is becoming like college football.

Attacking Iran could lead to ar worse than ISIS and the caliphate. It would bring in again anti American fighters from around the word.

We see what it takes in Syria. We 'won', at the expense of a devastated Syria. Iran will not roll over like Iraq did.

Derec insists if we "send a message" things will get all goody goody for American interests.

This send them a message mentality is exactly how the whole world blunders into war. Iran is sending a message to us with various attacks and proxy attacks. We send another message back. Why do we need to start sending messages? Why did we need to pull out of the accord in the first place? Did he not think that by sending that message, they'd respond like they have? And then push us into a corner?

This is another example of the idiotic Republican foreign policy. They just want to war and more war to rally the base and cower the the opposition. After all it’s not their kids going off to do the fighting. But it’s bleeding us dry while the real threat (China and Russia) just bides their time. They won’t need to go to war against us to get what they want. We'll be too weak to put up any resistance.

SLD

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The problem is people like Bolton who want to be part of something like WWII.

It was sanctions on Japan over Japan in China that led to Pearl harbor.

We had overwhelming military superiority in Vietnam and never donated over a population commited to oust all foreigners.

We are still in Afghanistan and Iraq. both situations are not stable. We keep trying to make people look like us who do not want it.

War for us is becoming like college football.

Attacking Iran could lead to ar worse than ISIS and the caliphate. It would bring in again anti American fighters from around the word.

We see what it takes in Syria. We 'won', at the expense of a devastated Syria. Iran will not roll over like Iraq did.

Derec insists if we "send a message" things will get all goody goody for American interests.

This send them a message mentality is exactly how the whole world blunders into war. Iran is sending a message to us with various attacks and proxy attacks. We send another message back. Why do we need to start sending messages? Why did we need to pull out of the accord in the first place? Did he not think that by sending that message, they'd respond like they have? And then push us into a corner?

This is another example of the idiotic Republican foreign policy. They just want to war and more war to rally the base and cower the the opposition. After all it’s not their kids going off to do the fighting. But it’s bleeding us dry while the real threat (China and Russia) just bides their time. They won’t need to go to war against us to get what they want. We'll be too weak to put up any resistance.

SLD

Ultimately, I still doubt that the US Military had no 'fewer than 150 dead Iranians' plan for a measured response.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Ultimately, I still doubt that the US Military had no 'fewer than 150 dead Iranians' plan for a measured response.

Here's the plan. Listen Carefully.

M A G A

Feel better now? Now you have as much direction as anyone else, including Trumpo.

 

[Elixir]

While I consider ordering and then rescinding the attack order to be very bad, at least the explanation he gives is coherent; it would be disproportionate to make an attack that would cause many deaths over a drone.

I am sure that Uncle Vlad offered him that excuse when he instructed Cheato not to mess with his pal.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Without knowing what is available, I cannot possibly answer. But killing people over a piece of equipment is not appropriate or proportionate.

That's not how warfare works. It's not about carefully tabulating the damage and then being sure you don't afflict any more damage on your enemy.

Trump should have hit Iran to show that US means business. And US should then also demand that Iran stop using Hezbollah, Houthis etc. for the IRGC external operations like attacking targets in Saudi Arabia.
A drone attack at a Saudi Arabia airport killed one person and wounded seven people

Why can't Saudi Arabia attack Iran themselves? Why should we shed blood and treasure for them?

It's revealing that this simple question has gone unanswered. Maybe a real war with a real enemy has finally gone out of fashion. We can only hope.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

While I consider ordering and then rescinding the attack order to be very bad, at least the explanation he gives is coherent; it would be disproportionate to make an attack that would cause many deaths over a drone.

I am sure that Uncle Vlad offered him that excuse when he instructed Cheato not to mess with his pal.

I doubt it. Putin would welcome the violence. Could sell more planes that way. All we know is that we have no idea who started what in DC and how it stopped... and Trump is lying.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

While I consider ordering and then rescinding the attack order to be very bad, at least the explanation he gives is coherent; it would be disproportionate to make an attack that would cause many deaths over a drone.

President Obama made a desperate and terrible deal with Iran - Gave them 150 Billion Dollars plus I.8 Billion Dollars in CASH! Iran was in big trouble and he bailed them out. Gave them a free path to Nuclear Weapons, and SOON. Instead of saying thank you, Iran yelled.....

....Death to America. I terminated deal, which was not even ratified by Congress, and imposed strong sanctions. They are a much weakened nation today than at the beginning of my Presidency, when they were causing major problems throughout the Middle East. Now they are Bust!....

....On Monday they shot down an unmanned drone flying in International Waters. We were cocked & loaded to retaliate last night on 3 different sights when I asked, how many will die. 150 people, sir, was the answer from a General. 10 minutes before the strike I stopped it, not....

....proportionate to shooting down an unmanned drone. I am in no hurry, our Military is rebuilt, new, and ready to go, by far the best in the world. Sanctions are biting & more added last night. Iran can NEVER have Nuclear Weapons, not against the USA, and not against the WORLD!

That is rambling, not an explanation. 150 people would have died? Yeah, that'd be disproportional, which is why I don't believe a word of it. Iran has no other targets? Didn't the US strike Syria without killing anyone (or damaging much of anything)?

Should the US respond? That is a trick question. Trump's Iranian policies have helped precipitate the situation we see now. This is kind of the "How wars start" thing. What I do know, is that what happened last night is very unknown. We do apparently know that a strike was either ordered or underway and then subsequently cancelled. We don't know anything else. Trump's tweets seem to be more about saving face than sustainable foreign policy. It is extremely worrisome. Especially when the President lies about what happened.

Less importantly, shouldn't it be loaded and cocked? If you are cocked, you are an idiot if you aren't loaded.

And now we continue...

...Any attack by Iran on anything American will be met with great and overwhelming force. In some areas, overwhelming will mean obliteration. No more John Kerry & Obama!

The drone was American... or is he saying an American? This man is unhinged.