Turkey shoots down Russian Jet

[barbos]

They destroyed an empty helicopter on the ground, soldiers were out searching for pilots. So Russians have to rescue these rescuers now.
This shit has escalated pretty quickly.

What's your source?
A group on the ground is saying the helicopter was shot down first, then destroyed on the ground even if the crew managed to escape. ( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-Russian-helicopter-in-wake-of-jet-crash.html ) They might or might not be telling the truth.

OK, this is consistent with the video where they show shooting landed helicopter. But the source says they landed by themselves. Shooting disabled and empty helicopter seems like waste of rockets.
At least they are alive for now.

 

[barbos]

Do military aircraft have black boxes?

When the UK scrambled fighters in response to Russian aircraft getting too close to Ireland's borders, the Russians had deliberately turned off their planes transponders so that they'd have a level of deniability about how close to the borders they'd been flying. So, they do at least have transponders which tell them the exact location of their planes at all times and there's no reason to turn these off during actual military missions. Everything about the planes are monitored from Russian airbases, so they knew exactly where the planes were and they knew exactly what the Turks were saying to the pilots.

If they don't have that level of control (which I wouldn't readily believe) then they have no business flying within a kilometer of a country which has told them to stay the fuck away because they can't guarantee that this distance has been kept.

This is different. Transponders is a safety device during peace time and turning it off is dangerous and not nice. During all out war there are no transponders.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

This is different. Transponders is a safety device during peace time and turning it off is dangerous and not nice. During all out war there are no transponders.

Do you have anything to back that up?

I find it difficult to believe that a modern military isn't tracking the planes that they're sending into battle. Is the role of a command center at an airbase to say "Bye, guys! Have fun bombing the terrorists! We'll see you in twelve hours" or do they have some sort of location devices on their planes so that they know where they are and what they're doing? Perhaps even through some sort of Russian built alternative to the GPS system which they've integrated into their air force.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying that the Russian military didn't actually know exactly where their plane was (I mean down to a level of a few meters at worst). Is that correct? Because they either did not know exactly where their plane was and the Turkish radar data is the only verifiable information and the Russians can't counter it with anything but baseless assertions or they did know exactly where their plane was and the Turks and Russians will be able to share their respective information and see if there's any discrepencies about whether a border incursion occurred.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Two observations:

1) If you're going to down an aircraft like this it's smart to do it air to air. No launchers to target.

2) Why was it so easy to shoot down a Russian fighter aircraft?

 

[Will Wiley]

What's any of that have to do with my question about if Russia has the money for replacements?

Does the US have the money to pay for the arms they're dropping into the area? It seems our government has been running a decent credit balance for a while. .

I would not like to be expecting to get any kind of social security in the US in coming years. They spent the money on wars. Its such fun after everyone watches war movies from cradle to grave.
Economist Tells Congress: U.S. May Be in ‘Worse Fiscal Shape’ Than Greece

 

[barbos]

Well, Erdogan's "explanation" about protecting borders did go well with russians. Russian military says they end military cooperation with Turkey (whatever it was) and will do what's necessary. I think they meant these Syrian turkmans. This is not going to end well.
Turkey should have had some other types of "warnings" between, "Don't do that" and "shoot it"
I think Turkey probably shot that plane in Syria because they were pissed off at Russia bombing these syrian turkman rebels, it did not even enter their space.

Two observations:

1) If you're going to down an aircraft like this it's smart to do it air to air. No launchers to target.

2) Why was it so easy to shoot down a Russian fighter aircraft?

It was not a fighter, it was a bomber. But from now on there will be russian fighters there it seems.
Turkey are insane I think.
One Su-25 pilot and one soldier (from helicopter) are confirmed dead.

 

[untermensche]

There is a very distinct difference.

You claimed Turkey can't make the jets.

I didn't say they couldn't assemble them if the US sold them parts.

Is the world safer or less safe because of all these weapons everywhere?

It is surely safer. If countries were unable to purchase weapons off the shelf, then they would inevitably find themselves forced to invest in designing and building their own. Countries would not cooperate on military matters the way they do now, which already makes the world less safe to begin with, but it would also make it more attractive for countries to engage in military operations because they'd find themselves forced to spend considerably more money on their militaries just to be able to have a minimal level of defense against their neighbours... so they'll reason that they might as well use their investment.

You seem to think all nations must have these weapons.

Most don't need them.

And by having them the world is far less safe. And the outbreak of war is more likely.

The reason these nations have these jets is to feed the MIC. There is always a need for new jets. But there is money to be made by selling the old jets, or their parts to foreign nations. It is insatiable greed driving the whole thing. And it is daily making the world less safe. Not to mention taking money from productive enterprises like education and healthcare and infrastructure.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

This was not the first time the Russkis have entered Turkish air space over the last few weeks and the Turks have registered their complaints to Russia over that. Looks like the Turks decided to make sure that the Russians get the message thus time in no uncertain terms.

My thought, also.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, Turkey should have the radar data and Russia should have the black box, so it'll be easy enough to determine where the plane was.

Now, that being said, was shooting it down really necessary, even if it was a legal action due to Russia committing an act of war by having it's military enter Turkish airspace without permission? They knew damn well that the plane was actually on its way to attack another country, so strafing around it with machine gun fire the first few times it happens would be a wiser course of action rather than jacking shit up to the next level blowing them out of the sky.

Plane fell 4 km into Syrian territory. And Russia claims it never got closer than 1 km to Turkey.
Also it was returning to base so, there were no point in flying through Turkey.

Watch the video. The plane keeps flying for some time trailing fire. The impact location is going to be well away from the shootdown location.

Also, what counts is where the plane was when the trigger was pulled, not where it was actually hit. Missiles aren't lightspeed weapons, they take time to close on their target.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Do military planes even have black boxes? Sounds like a security risk. Besides Russia wouldn't have it anyway because the plane fell to rebel territory.


Yes, I warning might have sufficed.

First time russian plane flew into Turkey they were royally pissed, which was a bit surprising to me. I think people and especially russians underestimate how uninterested Turkey is in defeating ISIS.

Yeah, Turkey certainly isn't interested in stopping ISIS. I have heard it claimed they are supporting them although I don't know how credible that is. Given the recent Islamist bent of the Turkish government it wouldn't exactly shock me.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Do military aircraft have black boxes?

When the UK scrambled fighters in response to Russian aircraft getting too close to Ireland's borders, the Russians had deliberately turned off their planes transponders so that they'd have a level of deniability about how close to the borders they'd been flying. So, they do at least have transponders which tell them the exact location of their planes at all times and there's no reason to turn these off during actual military missions. Everything about the planes are monitored from Russian airbases, so they knew exactly where the planes were and they knew exactly what the Turks were saying to the pilots.

If they don't have that level of control (which I wouldn't readily believe) then they have no business flying within a kilometer of a country which has told them to stay the fuck away because they can't guarantee that this distance has been kept.

If you're facing an enemy that can possibly shoot down your aircraft you turn off the transponders. If they're active anyone with the right equipment can see where you are.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

When the UK scrambled fighters in response to Russian aircraft getting too close to Ireland's borders, the Russians had deliberately turned off their planes transponders so that they'd have a level of deniability about how close to the borders they'd been flying. So, they do at least have transponders which tell them the exact location of their planes at all times and there's no reason to turn these off during actual military missions. Everything about the planes are monitored from Russian airbases, so they knew exactly where the planes were and they knew exactly what the Turks were saying to the pilots.

If they don't have that level of control (which I wouldn't readily believe) then they have no business flying within a kilometer of a country which has told them to stay the fuck away because they can't guarantee that this distance has been kept.

If you're facing an enemy that can possibly shoot down your aircraft you turn off the transponders. If they're active anyone with the right equipment can see where you are.

So, you're also saying that Russia doesn't know where their military planes are when those planes are on a mission.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Two observations:

1) If you're going to down an aircraft like this it's smart to do it air to air. No launchers to target.

2) Why was it so easy to shoot down a Russian fighter aircraft?

The Su-24 is an obsolete bomber. At best it can carry short-range heat-seeking missiles for self defense. Since ISIS has no aircraft there would be no reason to put missiles on the rails--use the weight for ordinance that can actually be used.

It has no radar to monitor the sky with or to guide a radar-guided missile. The sort of crap it can carry is only a threat if it's pointed in your direction--it lacks the avionics to fire the off-axis heat seekers.

Given the shape of the border there, if the F-16 didn't want to bust the border itself it would have to fly in, launch and promptly make a vertical U-turn. This would mean it was coming at the side of the Su-24, outside the envelope of anything the Su-24 could fire. Come in low using the terrain to hide and the Su-24 wouldn't have a chance.

 

[hurtinbuckaroo]

Russian most likely were routinely cutting into that piece of Turkey

I know this is a serious issue, but that made me chuckle with our annual turkey feeding frenzy coming up.

 

[fromderinside]

Given the shape of the border there, if the F-16 didn't want to bust the border itself it would have to fly in, launch and promptly make a vertical U-turn. This would mean it was coming at the side of the Su-24, outside the envelope of anything the Su-24 could fire. Come in low using the terrain to hide and the Su-24 wouldn't have a chance.

My guess is Turkey arms their F-16s with missiles capable of being fired from up to 50 clicks. Stand off would be plenty enough to get that sluggish antiquated thing.

BTW almost everybody has IFF systems.

 

[barbos]

Russian most likely were routinely cutting into that piece of Turkey

I know this is a serious issue, but that made me chuckle with our annual turkey feeding frenzy coming up.

Finally somebody chuckled at it

 

[KeepTalking]

Two observations:

1) If you're going to down an aircraft like this it's smart to do it air to air. No launchers to target.

2) Why was it so easy to shoot down a Russian fighter aircraft?

The Su-24 is an obsolete bomber. At best it can carry short-range heat-seeking missiles for self defense. Since ISIS has no aircraft there would be no reason to put missiles on the rails--use the weight for ordinance that can actually be used.

It has no radar to monitor the sky with or to guide a radar-guided missile. The sort of crap it can carry is only a threat if it's pointed in your direction--it lacks the avionics to fire the off-axis heat seekers.

Given the shape of the border there, if the F-16 didn't want to bust the border itself it would have to fly in, launch and promptly make a vertical U-turn. This would mean it was coming at the side of the Su-24, outside the envelope of anything the Su-24 could fire. Come in low using the terrain to hide and the Su-24 wouldn't have a chance.

I doubt that Turkey is very concerned about their jets crossing the border into Syria.

 

[barbos]

I doubt that Turkey is very concerned about their jets crossing the border into Syria.

If I remember correctly early in the War syrian army shoot down Turkey plane, pilot died.

 

[KeepTalking]

I doubt that Turkey is very concerned about their jets crossing the border into Syria.

If I remember correctly early in the War syrian army shoot down Turkey plane, pilot died.

It is no longer early in the war, and Syria no longer has an Air Force worth worrying about.

 

[barbos]

If I remember correctly early in the War syrian army shoot down Turkey plane, pilot died.

It is no longer early in the war, and Syria no longer has an Air Force worth worrying about.

It was shot by antiaircraft defense. And Russia does have fighter jets in Syria and I bet they will start escorting these old bombers just to show turkey that borders are protected on the other side too.

 

[Nexus]

Jahed Ahmad of the 10th Brigade in the Coast tells The Associated Press that the two Russian crew members tried to land in their parachutes in government-held areas after they ejected, but came under fire from members of his group.

He adds that rebels shot one of the pilots, who landed dead on the ground on Tuesday.

Firing on para-shooting pilots is a Geneva war crime. And these are the moderate Muslims the US wants to overthrow Assad.

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